BCAR not fit for purpose

con1982 · 17-06-2017 08:02AM #1

I feel that the public are being mislead by government and the construction industry.

BCAR is still self certification! A slight improvement on the free for all that existed before. It is not fit for purpose and it is wide open for abuse.

The Grenfell building has highlighted the issue of poor building quality in the UK. The Irish public should be told that the UK has superior building control checks than here.

I think professionals and others interested having a fit for purpose building control should lobby their TDs, local representatives and professional bodies (riai, EI, CIF, etc).

Self regulation is not sufficient. There needs to be proper oversight from the local authority or independent checkers.

I will be contacting Engineers Ireland on Monday to voice my concern.

Metric Tensor · 17-06-2017 12:07PM

It's an open secret in the industry OP. The government sold this pup to the unsuspecting public as a way of ensuring building quality when in fact it was a way of abdicating responsibility. Some developers are now using it as an excuse not to provide defects insurance - which it isn't.

The only problem is would you be willing to pay double your current property tax for a robust building control system. Or maybe a two fold increase in council contributions on every planning?

BryanF · 17-06-2017 12:21PM

Metric Tensor wrote: »

would you be willing to pay ... for a robust building control system. .... maybe a two fold increase in council contributions on every planning?

yes

Angry bird · 17-06-2017 01:08PM

You get what you pay for.

con1982 · 17-06-2017 01:47PM

I would pay extra. If I'm spending 400k plus on a house it's worth it.

Not just houses. The offices we work in, schools,public buildings.

Just look at what is happening in Scotland with the design and build schools. Shocking!

Gumbo · 17-06-2017 06:18PM

It's a tough one to answer alright.
The uk, with its 'far superior' uk Building Control process has done nothing to stop or prevent this tradegy.

What do we do and who do we want the book to stop with?
We are always looking for someone else to blame here.

In the LA, the BCO's highlight non compliance issues on a daily basis but it goes unnoticed to be fair. If I was a BCO and the book stopped with me, I'd want a far superior salary than what the LA pays currently and a pretty good PI policy.

But then, what do the countless architects, engineers and surveyors up and down the country do when they are told they are no longer needed after planning is granted. Sure I'll get the council to certify it.

Metric Tensor · 17-06-2017 08:14PM

They'll learn the hard way that the council inspectors will just send a letter saying "X, Y, Z is non-compliant submit alternative proposals and evidence of complaince". They'll rapidly get a consultant on board.

If anything I could see it being good for consultants who know their stuff. Johnny's house was designed by A and he had no problems with building control but Mickey's house was half designed by B and the build took six months longer because Building Control found loads of problems. "A" will get future jobs because he is known to provide a good service. Some cowboys might get cut down to size in the process!

It's only pie in the sky thinking but worth considering.

Also kc I would expect a national "PI" paid for by the government for all Building Control employees and a set series of mandatory control inspections at certain points for every building. Level the playing field! It would cost big bucks though!

P.S. And obviously a massive pay rise for KC ;-) ;-)

andrewg1981 · 06-09-2017 12:28PM

Has the B-CAR replaced Certificates of Substantial Compliance with Building Regulations or do you still need the Certificate to draw down a mortgage?

sydthebeat · 06-09-2017 04:01PM

andrewg1981 wrote: »

Has the B-CAR replaced Certificates of Substantial Compliance with Building Regulations or do you still need the Certificate to draw down a mortgage?

most people opt out where possible.... so it hasnt replaced those certs in these cases.

andrewg1981 · 06-09-2017 05:23PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

most people opt out where possible.... so it hasnt replaced those certs in these cases.

Thanks Syd. The issue we have is that we are trying to buy a house that is new and the Builder will not issue a cert of substantial compliance. They are stating the B-Car is fulfilling this role which our solicitor is not accepting so looks like we have to let this house go. Had never even heard of this B-Car until Monday when I got this news so very frustrating trying to find information on it.

sydthebeat · 06-09-2017 05:57PM

andrewg1981 wrote: »

Thanks Syd. The issue we have is that we are trying to buy a house that is new and the Builder will not issue a cert of substantial compliance. They are stating the B-Car is fulfilling this role which our solicitor is not accepting so looks like we have to let this house go. Had never even heard of this B-Car until Monday when I got this news so very frustrating trying to find information on it.

It sounds like your solicitor doesn't understand the "building control amendment regulations" (bcars)

If the builder got it signed off under the bcar system then it is fully certified in compliance with building regulations.

However, bcar doesn't cover planning permission, so your solicitor can still request a cert of compliance with planning permission.

andrewg1981 · 06-09-2017 06:49PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

It sounds like your solicitor doesn't understand the "building control amendment regulations" (bcars)

If the builder got it signed off under the bcar system then it is fully certified in compliance with building regulations.

However, bcar doesn't cover planning permission, so your solicitor can still request a cert of compliance with planning permission.

Thanks Sydthebeat that is very helpful; I'll revert back to the solicitor tomorrow with that advice. Is it a case that solicitors are not very versed in the BCAR system? She has stressed to me the failure to provide a certificate with the wording "substantial compliance" is something she cannot stand over. I was hoping her expertise in the area would be sufficient in this manner but you have planted doubts in my head now.

sydthebeat · 06-09-2017 07:50PM

andrewg1981 wrote: »

Thanks Sydthebeat that is very helpful; I'll revert back to the solicitor tomorrow with that advice. Is it a case that solicitors are not very versed in the BCAR system? She has stressed to me the failure to provide a certificate with the wording "substantial compliance" is something she cannot stand over. I was hoping her expertise in the area would be sufficient in this manner but you have planted doubts in my head now.

The bcar cert is better than "substantial compliance".... It "certifies" compliance, meaning the assignee is certain it complies... (I can get into the issues with this another time)

It's a new enough system so I wouldn't be too hard on the solicitor. It may be her first house signed off through this manner.

andrewg1981 · 06-09-2017 07:56PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

The bcar cert is better than "substantial compliance".... It "certifies" compliance, meaning the assignee is certain it complies... (I can get into the issues with this another time)

It's a new enough system so I wouldn't be too hard on the solicitor. It may be her first house signed off through this manner.

Perfect stuff. You seem to have reassured me that we are safe to pursue this house as this BCAR cert seems to ensure the house is in compliance. Yeah as I said I have not heard of it until Monday so had no idea what it was to be honest. Thanks for the guidance; it is very much appreciated.

Gumbo · 06-09-2017 09:50PM

andrewg1981 wrote: »

Perfect stuff. You seem to have reassured me that we are safe to pursue this house as this BCAR cert seems to ensure the house is in compliance. Yeah as I said I have not heard of it until Monday so had no idea what it was to be honest. Thanks for the guidance; it is very much appreciated.

Where is the house?

andrewg1981 · 07-09-2017 09:02AM

kceire wrote: »

Where is the house?

Kildare. Spoke to solicitor who has once again insisted the BCAR alone is not enough. House has BCAR and planning cert but have been told again we will be asked for an engineer's report confirming substantial compliance if we ever try to sell. Nothing is ever simple. Will have to solicit the 2nd opinion of another solicitor to see what she says! Thank God my job does not involve interpreting building regulations as Im clueless.

BCAR not fit for purpose

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