What can be done to make the bidding on a second hand home more transparent

gazumped27 · 04-09-2017 08:38PM #1

I have been recently in an active bidding process for a second hand house in Dublin 2, the offers went way over the asking price set by the agent and it felt like it was back to the old days where agents were making up offers to make us as potential buyers bid against ourselves...

Is there anything out there that can make this whole drawn out back and forth more transparent and trustworthy?

LincolnHawk · 04-09-2017 08:41PM

Don't bid more than you think it's worth

Graham · 04-09-2017 08:59PM

Surely if somebody else bought it for more than you were willing to pay, that's fairly conclusive proof of another bidder.

Estate agents are 0bliged to record all offers, if I recall correctly you can complain to the PRSA if you have cause.

riclad · 04-09-2017 09:49PM

The house price register shows how much the house was sold for,check houses in the local area .
i understand it may take time for the house to be listed on the website after its sold.
its a free market , in urban area,s you are paying as much to live in cabra ,or rathmines Ie for the location, rather than the cost of building a house.
We simply have a low supply of houses for sale,
not many 2 0r 3bed units have been built since 2008.

Sleeper12 · 04-09-2017 09:57PM

gazumped27 wrote:

Is there anything out there that can make this whole drawn out back and forth more transparent and trustworthy?

Sellers and estate agents don't want it transparent nor should they IMO. It would be like saying that you can't bluff in poker.

LuckyLloyd · 04-09-2017 11:17PM

Graham wrote: »

Surely if somebody else bought it for more than you were willing to pay, that's fairly conclusive proof of another bidder.

Estate agents are 0bliged to record all offers, if I recall correctly you can complain to the PRSA if you have cause.

This is a slightly different point to the question asked. Recording all offers is one thing, having to publish them within a strict SLA (24 hours) another. If we're all sure the almighty free market is functioning efficiently there should be no opposition to the latter

Graham · 05-09-2017 12:05AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is a slightly different point to the question asked. Recording all offers is one thing, having to publish them within a strict SLA (24 hours) another. If we're all sure the almighty free market is functioning efficiently there should be no opposition to the latter

You could publish signed notarised photographs of the counter-bidders holding certificates with their offer amount embossed in gold leaf across the front with the pope as a witness.

50% of potential buyers would still convince themselves there was something underhand every single time they were outbid.

LuckyLloyd · 05-09-2017 12:11AM

Graham wrote: »

You could publish singed notarised photographs of the counter-bidders holding certificates with their offer amount embossed in gold leaf across the front with the pope as a witness.

50% of potential buyers would still convince themselves there was something underhand every single time they were outbid.

I agree with your general perception of people overthinking the bidding process and, in the majority of cases, failing to simply accept that they got out bid and it was a simple issue of money rather than under handed EAs or voodoo magic that prevented them getting the property.

However, at the same time there should be no reason not to make the process as transparent as possible. We register the prices publicly, why not the bids to that point?

Graham · 05-09-2017 12:18AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We register the prices publicly, why not the bids to that point?

Nope, I got nothing.

Given I can find no reason to object (yet), that probably means I'd probably support the idea

LincolnHawk · 05-09-2017 08:21AM

I wouldn't want all my bids published publicly...especially for the 20 houses I got outbid on.
The PPR is enough

davo10 · 05-09-2017 08:44AM

LincolnHawk wrote: »

I wouldn't want all my bids published publicly...especially for the 20 houses I got outbid on.
The PPR is enough

Have to agree, there is no way I would want my bid to be made public. That is no one else's business apart from the vendors and mine. Besides which, all that would happen is that aliases, auctioneers or solicitors would be used to make bids on behalf of the bidder.

LuckyLloyd · 05-09-2017 10:27AM

A name on the bid is not required here. The point is that all actual tangible bids are publicly viewable to interested parties during the selling process. That doesn't impinge upon any free working of the market. It just allows everyone to know if they're wasting their time or not, and should see sales close quicker with no negative feelings towards Estate Agents, etc.

Rew · 05-09-2017 10:41AM

The only way would be to have to legally place all bids though a 3rd party (solicitor). The EA cant easily have a friend ring up and place a bid as they can now and if the 3rd party had to have proof of funds to place bids you wouldn't get people bidding houses up with money they don't have. On the down side it would be more costs for the buyer and make the process a little more complex.

Cant see any reform of anything in property sector anytime soon.

LuckyLloyd · 05-09-2017 10:48AM

Rew wrote: »

The only way would be to have to legally place all bids though a 3rd party (solicitor). The EA cant easily have a friend ring up and place a bid as they can now and if the 3rd party had to have proof of funds to place bids you wouldn't get people bidding houses up with money they don't have. On the down side it would be more costs for the buyer and make the process a little more complex.

Cant see any reform of anything in property sector anytime soon.

That allied to a mandatory portal where all such bids are registered within a tight SLA would solve the issue.

We can't see any reform because the reality is so many people are delighted with prices being forced up the extra couple of grand on average.

Graham · 05-09-2017 11:22AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

TWe can't see any reform because the reality is so many people are delighted with prices being forced up the extra couple of grand on average.

I can almost guarantee that at least 50% of people involved in a property transaction are not delighted with prices increasing a couple of grand.

Sebastian Dangerfield · 05-09-2017 11:28AM

From my experience, peoples frustration is stemming from what they see as artificially low asking prices. People I have spoken to say there must be something underhand about a house that was listed at 350k being sold for 450k or more.

The fact is that the house was never going to sell for 350k in the first place, but at that price viewings were full and the early bidding moved quickly, which is the reason the EA listed it lower in the first place.

LuckyLloyd · 05-09-2017 11:30AM

Graham wrote: »

I can almost guarantee that at least 50% of people involved in a property transaction are not delighted with prices increasing a couple of grand.

Sure, but buyers are in the market temporarily, and most leave when they've completed their purchase grumbling about the whole process. Estate Agents are the constant, and they aren't going to push for transparency in this area.

minikin · 05-09-2017 11:40AM

Every bidder must submit a refundable deposit of 10k, this gives them a bidder i.d. number.
All bids (and bidder numbers) are published live on a secure webpage (which can only be viewed when logged in using bidder number).

Takes the estate agent chancery out of the equation.

Unsuccessful bidders receive deposit back immediately upon the property going sale agreed.
Removes tyre kickers / fake bids from the equation.

qrx · 05-09-2017 11:41AM

What about the Scottish approach? All interested parties submit their best and final offer. Bids are sealed so you cannot "up" your competitors.

Cuddlesworth · 05-09-2017 11:46AM

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

From my experience, peoples frustration is stemming from what they see as artificially low asking prices. People I have spoken to say there must be something underhand about a house that was listed at 350k being sold for 450k or more.

The fact is that the house was never going to sell for 350k in the first place, but at that price viewings were full and the early bidding moved quickly, which is the reason the EA listed it lower in the first place.

Or that the agent is simply trying to get the house to the price that the vendors will sell at. Lots of people ignore this.

Graham · 05-09-2017 12:14PM

I can't help but think this is trying to fix a largely non-existent problem.

"estate agent is doing something dodgy"

"why"

"somebody outbid me"

mmmmmm k

Gator88 · 05-09-2017 12:27PM

Selling tactics seem to have changed in the last year or two. I've viewed plenty of properties both commercial and residential and offered the asking price only to be told that the seller won't accept the asking price! I am a cash buyer so that isn't the issue.

I believe the asking price is being put out as a feeler. I believe we are at the same stage we were at around 2003/2007. The agent doesn't really know the value but sets a price anyway. If the price over it's a matter of waiting a few months and prices will have caught up to the asking price

qrx · 05-09-2017 12:31PM

Graham wrote: »

I can't help but think this is trying to fix a largely non-existent problem.

"estate agent is doing something dodgy"

"why"

"somebody outbid me"

mmmmmm k

And when you offer the asking and no one outbids you? Because this is what is happening to me on a regular basis. I call that an intentionally dishonest valuation. They take your offer and use it as a base. People walking through the door get told there is an offer in for the asking price. Even though at this stage I've been well and truly pissed off and am long gone from that property. I understand, the EA carries out the vendors commands. I don't care who is to blame the EA or the vendor, whoever it is it is a crafty attempt at inflating prices and it should be stamped out. Anyone who argues otherwise clearly has a vested interest.

05-09-2017 12:35PM

I think a large part of the problem is that buyers interacting with the Estate Agent develop an expectation of him/her being some sort of mutual broker between them and the buyer - like a marriage matchmaker in Lisdoonvarna. This is despite them knowing rationally that Estate Agents are professional salespeople commissioned by the seller to act on their behalf.

As for fake bids - I suspect that they are a lot less common than some imagine. But where they happen it is more likely to be someone acting on behalf of the vendor than the EA.

Graham · 05-09-2017 12:38PM

qrx wrote: »

And when you offer the asking and no one outbids you? Because this is what is happening to me on a regular basis. I call that an intentionally dishonest valuation. They take your offer and use it as a base. People walking through the door get told there is an offer in for the asking price. Even though at this stage I've been well and truly pissed off and am long gone from that property. I understand, the EA carries out the vendors commands. I don't care who is to blame the EA or the vendor, whoever it is it is a crafty attempt at inflating prices and it should be stamped out. Anyone who argues otherwise clearly has a vested interest.

You are probably right about the starting price but a 'more transparent' bidding process isn't going to change that.

btw, it's entirely likely you will find people disagreeing with you without having a vested interest.

jamesthepeach · 05-09-2017 12:40PM

I even hate the ppr.
I don't like my nosey neighbors knowing how much I paid for or sold my house for.

qrx · 05-09-2017 12:57PM

Graham wrote: »

You are probably right about the starting price but a 'more transparent' bidding process isn't going to change that.

btw, it's entirely likely you will find people disagreeing with you without having a vested interest.

I think a closed system is the answer, not a transparent one. Bids are sealed, you don't get to see what other people are bidding. You put your bid in as what you can or are willing to pay for that house and that is it. With multiple bids, the highest bidder wins unless the vendor has any other requirements such as needing a cash buyer. In that case only cash buyers should be invited to bid as it serves no purpose whatsoever to put in a bid that will not be considered.

Edit: I should also mention, offers should be done through solicitors.

If you think about it, this limits the estate agents role to purely advertising and viewing your home. Which is all they should be doing.

....... · 05-09-2017 12:58PM

This post has been deleted.

jamesthepeach · 05-09-2017 01:17PM

....... wrote: »

Why?

Im struggling to know what difference it makes to anything?

They still wouldnt know if you got a mortgage, paid in case etc.... theyd only know the value of a property at a point in time.

Because I thing some things are private.

Cuddlesworth · 05-09-2017 01:24PM

qrx wrote: »

And when you offer the asking and no one outbids you? Because this is what is happening to me on a regular basis. I call that an intentionally dishonest valuation. They take your offer and use it as a base. People walking through the door get told there is an offer in for the asking price. Even though at this stage I've been well and truly pissed off and am long gone from that property. I understand, the EA carries out the vendors commands. I don't care who is to blame the EA or the vendor, whoever it is it is a crafty attempt at inflating prices and it should be stamped out. Anyone who argues otherwise clearly has a vested interest.

Same here, I've seen plenty of properties and have put a bid in under asking on a couple. They seem to think that I am bidding against myself and that I should raise it to above asking. But people need to understand, that's not the estate agent or the market. It's simply the seller deciding that their house is worth a certain amount and only selling at that amount. Well in reality, as house is worth what people are willing to pay for it, but also what people are willing to accept for it.

Also at least 3 I have seen are up to appease banks/solicitors. I have left spite bids in on them in case the estate agent ever gets asked was there a offer in.

mloc123 · 05-09-2017 01:50PM

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Same here, I've seen plenty of properties and have put a bid in under asking on a couple. They seem to think that I am bidding against myself and that I should raise it to above asking. But people need to understand, that's not the estate agent or the market. It's simply the seller deciding that their house is worth a certain amount and only selling at that amount. Well in reality, as house is worth what people are willing to pay for it, but also what people are willing to accept for it.

Also at least 3 I have seen are up to appease banks/solicitors. I have left spite bids in on them in case the estate agent ever gets asked was there a offer in.

That is the thing. People see a house sitting for a while and assume that a low ball bid will buy it, but a seller isn't obliged to take the highest or only bid. Anyone selling a house will have a price in mind and they will not sell it for less than that.

As for ghost bidders etc.. Set a price on every house you view. Bid to that price, don't get annoyed with the estate agent if somebody else has set a higher limit in their head.

Transparent bidding isn't going to get you a house you were out bid on... regardless of how the bidding ends up at the final price, that final price is what somebody else was willing to pay. Your aren't bidding against the estate agent, you are bidding against the other people interested.

What can be done to make the bidding on a second hand home more transparent

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