Atheist experiences of religious apparitions

kelly1 wrote: »

You're either trolling or not terribly bright.

For the very last time, I went to Lourdes because I was asked by my brother and I went only because my mother died there.

FYI, from here on, I'm ignoring you.

I don't understand. How does your mother not being cured in Lourdes prove anything?

There have only been 4 official miracle healings since the 70s, that's a lot less than spontaneous remission rates.

kelly1 wrote: »

You're either trolling or not terribly bright.

For the very last time, I went to Lourdes because I was asked by my brother and I went only because my mother died there.

FYI, from here on, I'm ignoring you.

So sorry to hear that! :-(

kylith wrote: »

I don't understand. How does your mother not being cured in Lourdes prove anything?

I made no such claim. How could that prove anything?? She didn't go to Lourdes to be healed, she went because she wanted to go there before she died. And I'm so glad I went because of her and my brother's invitation.

branie2 wrote: »

I'm Christian, but sceptical of Christina Gallagher's "apparitions"

Good example. I think Medjugorje falls into the same category (IMO).

In the genuine apparitions e.g. Lourdes, Fatima, Knock, the message is short an simple and not repeated day after day (for years on end), changing a few words here an there.

kelly1 wrote: »

I made no such claim. How could that prove anything?? She didn't go to Lourdes to be healed, she went because she wanted to go there before she died. And I'm so glad I went because of her and my brother's invitation.

But that's what I'm confused about. Your mother wanted to go to Lourdes before she died, ye went to Lourdes, therefore... what?

I was there myself many years ago, in the off-season, and was struck by how peaceful the place was (again: in the off season) but I can't say I found it any different to a lovely stretch of the Liffey outside the city, or the view from the 3 Rocks.

kylith wrote: »

But that's what I'm confused about. Your mother wanted to go to Lourdes before she died, ye went to Lourdes, therefore... what?

ok, I went to Lourdes, not because I wanted to go but because my brother asked me to go. And he asked me to go because he was with her when she died, 6 years previously. I was wary of going but I went.

At the time I went to Lourdes, I had long abandoned my Catholic faith and was into New Age/Yoga stuff at the time. Believed in reincarnation etc.

So the atmosphere in Lourdes made a great impression on me. I found the people there very joyful, in a way I hadn't really seen before. I was also impressed by the genuine strong faith of the pilgrims. Again something I hadn't particularly seen before.

At the time I still believed in God, but I though Jesus was an "Ascended Master", just like Buddha, Krishna, various yogis etc. It makes me embarrassed admitting this now.

So on the night we were due to go home, I went down to the grotto to pray for guidance from God because, even though I thought I had found the answers in yoga, I thought it wouldn't do any harm. I've had been on a long and tortuous road trying to discover the truth about God. Tried lots of philosophies etc.

And when I got home from Lourdes, I unexpectedly found myself very interested in Christianity and in fact I found out just how little I knew. For instance, I didn't know why Jesus died on the cross, I never understood that point.

I spent the next couple of years devouring all the theology and biographies of the saints that I could get my hands on. I learned about all the traditional devotions associated with the Church. I did a course on theology and even started a prayer group.

I also had a very profound realization experience on day of how I had turned my back on Jesus/God by the way I lived and how I'd been following false religions. I knew there and then what the parable of the prodigal son was all about and to this day I still get emotional reading it.

But I can tell you that day turned my life upside down. It changed my worldview so dramatically. My new found faith was like finding a treasure chest and I never want to go back to my previous way of thinking and living.

That's not any kind of evidence I know, but it is for me. To me, the change that came over me was nothing short of a miracle.

kelly1 wrote: »

I've attempted to answer this already. If God did do that, and I'm sure he could since he created the universe, then it would be a miracle beyond any doubt, incontrovertible. But this would interfere with God's plan whereby he wants to love him, but doesn't force us. It would be like a lesser version of Jesus appearing in the sky.

I've heard this argument before but I've never really understood why so many Christians put their faith in this Deus Absconditus notion that God has to hide himself from humanity to an extent because as theologian Michael Murray said if we were powerfully aware of God's existence then we would no longer have free will that we would be compelled to believe and obey. Of course this idea is ridiculous. Several people in the Bible have no problem disobeying God despite having (in some instances) face to face conversations with God. Cain even manages to kill his own brother despite having spoken to God. So the argument that God couldn't cure amputees because it would compromise free will is not just ridiculous but is just plagiarising Douglas Adams:

""The argument goes something like this:
'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.'
'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it?
It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic."

EDIT: I know this is off-topic from the OP but I can't really help with the OP's question because I was only 4 when Ballinspittle happened.

I've been to Lourdes three times myself, and it was a great experience

kelly1 wrote: »

But of the two scenarios, one being that God is plainly visible and two, God is hidden, which one is most likely to diminish free-will?

There is also the merit argument. It's a Catholic doctrine that all good deeds are rewarded in Heaven. So good deeds done freely deserve more merit than those done less freely. This result in a greater good for those who are faithful.

Hmmm, that's interesting in that it could be read as atheists being more deserving of heaven than the 'faithful'. Any good I, or other, atheists do is done purely of our own free will, expecting of no reward, because we believe it is the right thing to do. Whereas any good a Christian does they do in the knowledge that all good deeds count towards 'heaven points'. Therefore any good deed they do lacks purely free will in that they are doing it for a particular purpose ("Do good deeds or go to hell" removing 'free' will as one is only doing good under threat of punishment) whereas my good deed is 100% free and therefore more deserving of merit.

kelly1 wrote: »

But of the two scenarios, one being that God is plainly visible and two, God is hidden, which one is most likely to diminish free-will?

In the eyes of someone with faith, god does plainly exist. So wouldn't belief in god, any god, therefore diminish free will?

kelly1 wrote: »

There is also the merit argument. It's a Catholic doctrine that all good deeds are rewarded in Heaven. So good deeds done freely deserve more merit than those done less freely. This result in a greater good for those who are faithful.

But if those faithful are doing those good deeds because of the greater good (i.e. more reward in heaven), then how are those good deeds being done truly free? The only way for those good deeds to be truly free would be if the people doing them didn't even have any idea of god or heaven at all.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

In the eyes of someone with faith, god does plainly exist. So wouldn't belief in god, any god, therefore diminish free will?

Belief in God makes no actual difference to free-will. It's how you respond to that (dis)belief that determines your chosen behaviour.

So I, as a Christian, try to live according to the teachings of Christ.

An atheists on the other hand, behaves according to his conscience and social conventions. But lack of belief in God is mostly likely to suggest that there are no consequences to one's actions, unless the person is caught.

So under atheism, if a child rapist commits suicide, he gets off scott-free and the victim continues to suffer. No justice is not done.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But if those faithful are doing those good deeds because of the greater good (i.e. more reward in heaven), then how are those good deeds being done truly free? The only way for those good deeds to be truly free would be if the people doing them didn't even have any idea of god or heaven at all.

The fact that there's a reward shouldn't be the main incentive for doing good. Of course it better to do good just because it's good.

I agree, doing good without incentive is better than good with incentive. But without that incentive, a lot less good would actually be done.

magicbastarder wrote: »

let's assume for a second that these miracles *do* happen at lourdes. why does god need or want a geographic basis for them? is it not capricious to require seriously ill people to travel to a foreign country in order for him to deign to bestow his cure on them?

Lourdes isn't the only place where miracles have happened. But you'd prefer a better selection of shrines I take it. I find your point a bit trivial really.

BVM stands for Blessed Virgin Mary

kelly1 wrote: »

Belief in God makes no actual difference to free-will. It's how you respond to that (dis)belief that determines your chosen behaviour.

So I, as a Christian, try to live according to the teachings of Christ.

An atheists on the other hand, behaves according to his conscience and social conventions. But lack of belief in God is mostly likely to suggest that there are no consequences to one's actions, unless the person is caught.

So under atheism, if a child rapist commits suicide, he gets off scott-free and the victim continues to suffer. No justice is not done.

Whereas under Christianity the rapist just has to repent and they not only get off scot free, the actually get to go to heaven! No consequences there!