Should decentralisation be considered again?

impega1 · 23-08-2017 02:50PM

The Curragh would still result in extreme demand for housing in Dublin. Most people would commute from their current Dublin locations, so there wouldn't really be any major benefits to the rest of the country. The idea is to spread the wealth across the country so that everyone benefits, not just the greater Dublin area.

The idea of spreading the positions across the country to spread the wealth was one of the major flaws of decentralisation and was used a a gloss over by politicians and senior civil servants. By centralising the entire civil service in one location will benefit the country - less T&S, better use of monies through bulk orders, easy movement of staff.

Right maybe curragh was not the best example of location, however any location in Offaly, Laois or Westmeath would be ideal. There is ample rail and road networks. Already a big presence of CS in these areas and numbers from these areas commuting to or renting in Dublin is significant.

By moving these positions out of Dublin and to a centralised location would, free up housing stock in Dublin (not really sure if this is even part of a debate on decentralisation/centralisation). May even put downward pressure on prices.

ohnonotgmail · 23-08-2017 02:53PM

impega1 wrote: »

The idea of spreading the positions across the country to spread the wealth was one of the major flaws of decentralisation and was used a a gloss over by politicians and senior civil servants. By centralising the entire civil service in one location will benefit the country - less T&S, better use of monies through bulk orders, easy movement of staff.

Right maybe curragh was not the best example of location, however any location in Offaly, Laois or Westmeath would be ideal. There is ample rail and road networks. Already a big presence of CS in these areas and numbers from these areas commuting to or renting in Dublin is significant.

By moving these positions out of Dublin and to a centralised location would, free up housing stock in Dublin (not really sure if this is even part of a debate on decentralisation/centralisation). May even put downward pressure on prices.

to describe the rail network in those areas as "ample" is being incredibly generous.

Richard Hillman · 23-08-2017 02:55PM

There should be a concerted effort to create a true second city. The other "cities" are effectively just large towns. Whether it be Limerick, Cork or Galway, one of them needs to be actively chosen as the place to be the second city.

beauf · 23-08-2017 02:58PM

impega1 wrote: »

The idea of spreading the positions across the country to spread the wealth was one of the major flaws of decentralisation and was used a a gloss over by politicians and senior civil servants. By centralising the entire civil service in one location will benefit the country - less T&S, better use of monies through bulk orders, easy movement of staff....

The point was to distribute economic activity around the country. Not centralize the CS in a location outside of Dublin.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0126/311538-decentralisation/

But it wasn't planned or costed properly. Which became very clear early on.

impega1 · 23-08-2017 03:48PM

to describe the rail network in those areas as "ample" is being incredibly generous

Portarlington has a great service. Portlaoise has improved since arrow/commuter service was extended.

Tullamore - yes poor enough service.

However, if decision to centralise CS to an area around these locations was reached, it would not be unthinkable to add additional trains to meet demands.

Also road network to these areas are fairly decent

ohnonotgmail · 23-08-2017 03:52PM

impega1 wrote: »

Portarlington has a great service. Portlaoise has improved since arrow/commuter service was extended.

Tullamore - yes poor enough service.

However, if decision to centralise CS to an area around these locations was reached, it would not be unthinkable to add additional trains to meet demands.

Also road network to these areas are fairly decent

But the idea was not to centralise to another area. the idea was to decentralise. Moving the entire CS to a single area doesnt bring much in the way of benefits. well except if you happen to own office space in those areas.

keeponhurling · 23-08-2017 03:58PM

animaal wrote: »

donegaLroad wrote: »

What numbskull decided that Cavan would be a suitable location for the dept of Marine?

I'm sure Cavan was considered a marginal constituency at the time

Not being a sea-faring person, I would guess that it doesn't matter much where it goes. The Dept of the Marine doesn't hold its meetings on ships. And at best, it can only be near to a very small portion of the coast anyway.

the Marine Institute was decentralised from Dublin to Oranmore, Co. Galway

Grayson · 23-08-2017 05:12PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There should be a concerted effort to create a true second city. The other "cities" are effectively just large towns. Whether it be Limerick, Cork or Galway, one of them needs to be actively chosen as the place to be the second city.

Not just one city either. The economy grows fast enough here that we could easily expand one or two coastal cities and one midland one.

suicide_circus · 23-08-2017 05:17PM

The Big D? lulz

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater · 23-08-2017 05:24PM

The Civil Service is having a rough time trying to attract potential employees to take certain roles in Dublin. Many CS roles could be decentralised, as was the plan for many years. Unless you're already Dublin based, moving to the capital to take on a job that pays 23 grand isn't feasible.

I think there is definitely scope for at least some decentralisation.

ednwireland · 23-08-2017 05:26PM

Ubbquittious wrote: »

They need to stop herding new businesses into Dublin when there's a cheaper, emptier spot available for them elsewhere. Of course the counter argument to that is usually that the specific breed of tech hipster they're trying to recruit refuses to live in rural Ireland and needs to be close to Starbucks & Craft beer pubs at all times.

the problem is that is proven not to work, similiar businesses dont want to locate away from other similiar businesses, you tend to find that they locate close to each other (hence the tech companies in dublin). they want a pool of like minded labour they can acquire as well.

as far as decentralisation goes it should have been continued with originally but not in the form it was presented as every minister no matter where they were from got a department. i mean social welfare going to donegal town. never saw the logic of that (and the claim in the decentralisation documents that its 3 hours from dublin, maybe in harneys air corp plane.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz · 23-08-2017 09:48PM

ednwireland wrote: »

the problem is that is proven not to work, similiar businesses dont want to locate away from other similiar businesses, you tend to find that they locate close to each other (hence the tech companies in dublin). they want a pool of like minded labour they can acquire as well.

as far as decentralisation goes it should have been continued with originally but not in the form it was presented as every minister no matter where they were from got a department. i mean social welfare going to donegal town. never saw the logic of that (and the claim in the decentralisation documents that its 3 hours from dublin, maybe in harneys air corp plane.

You would think the multinationals would get together and decide it is in their best interests to find a cheaper operating base, by which I mean a cheaper town or city.

Maybe if someone like Elon Musk breaks the mould and starts building his own town from the ground up, then that might spark a new decentralisation movement, so to speak. I think it would take someone big to popularise the idea first by bringing it into the public consciousness.

awec · 23-08-2017 09:51PM

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

You would think the multinationals would get together and decide it is in their best interests to find a cheaper operating base, by which I mean a cheaper town or city.

Maybe if someone like Elon Musk breaks the mould and starts building his own town from the ground up, then that might spark a new decentralisation movement, so to speak. I think it would take someone big to popularise the idea first by bringing it into the public consciousness.

It's not really cheaper. The lack of infrastructure and talent is costly in the long run.

dresden8 · 23-08-2017 09:53PM

Decentralisation was and is still is an epic clusterfnck.

The CS has never recovered from the loss of institutional knowledge.

fly_agaric · 23-08-2017 09:54PM

People are always on about how the govt. is "pushing" all jobs and investment at Dublin in these sort of threads. The govt. cannot force companies to set up outside Dublin if investing here. We don't have a state planned economy... Govt. can offer them encouragements to pick other locations through IDA supports etc. and afaik they do that, but this might not be enough. For foreign investment (which we have been relying on for alot of jobs since as far as I can remember) I think it is more likely to be Dublin vs some other city with 1m or greater population elsewhere in EU than Dublin vs Galway or vs town in rural Ireland that badly needs a jobs boost.

As regards decentralisation, public sector jobs are one aspect of the economy that the govt. has control over. One of our small cities as mentioned above should have been chosen and all of the decentralising departments sent there.
Perhaps a new capital should have been chosen also. That, combined with some infrastructure investment would give one of the cities a massive "shot in the arm" and possibly allow it to develop into a larger conurbation.

However that requires the govt. to choose just one city for this plan, and the electorate to accept that and both things are impossible in Ireland imo.
The original decentralisation scheme was mainly for vote buying with x jobs + construction projects for x town doled out graciously by the local "Big Man".
That is the kind of thing our electorate and politicians can get behind and understand, not a "real" decentralisation project that would require planning, strategy and difficult decisions.

screamer · 23-08-2017 09:57PM

Smart decentralisation yes. Forget moving your public sector offices..... Build hubs for similar industries in towns where we have ITs so that they can partner up with the colleges to ensure they have a great pipeline of employees.....and as I said, specialise. It's very possible for IT companies for example to exist beside each other and with a good pool of people to draw from each other it can work.
Also put in high speed bullet Train station and be done with it. Commuting will be a huge part of rural life forever so just get on with it and give people choice and a bit of work life balance....

Spanish Eyes · 23-08-2017 10:27PM

I wouldn't live anywhere other than Dublin now. It's brilliant. But then again I own my own house outright and can walk into town.

From memory the last phase of decentralisation was to Limerick (huge), Wexford and I forget where else but I am sure I will be told.

Looked to me at the time that it was a great opportunity for those with connections around those areas to go back home. And it seems to have worked quite well.

But ask anyone who is settled in Dublin to up sticks and go down the country, I don't think so.

Might work for newbies in the CS though. If you get the job you have to settle in X or Y, thems the breaks.

I dunno, Dublin is the Capital and certain functions of State need to be there, because the Dail, Senate and backup (ahem troubleshooting) civil servants are within walking distance of TDs in need of help.

Non essential services could be moved I suppose. But I am not sure that there is much stomach for it at the moment. We will see.

Ubbquittious · 23-08-2017 11:28PM

fly_agaric wrote: »

People are always on about how the govt. is "pushing" all jobs and investment at Dublin in these sort of threads. The govt. cannot force companies to set up outside Dublin if investing here. We don't have a state planned economy... Govt. can offer them encouragements to pick other locations through IDA supports etc. and afaik they do that, but this might not be enough. For foreign investment (which we have been relying on for alot of jobs since as far as I can remember) I think it is more likely to be Dublin vs some other city with 1m or greater population elsewhere in EU than Dublin vs Galway or vs town in rural Ireland that badly needs a jobs boost.

As regards decentralisation, public sector jobs are one aspect of the economy that the govt. has control over. One of our small cities as mentioned above should have been chosen and all of the decentralising departments sent there.
Perhaps a new capital should have been chosen also. That, combined with some infrastructure investment would give one of the cities a massive "shot in the arm" and possibly allow it to develop into a larger conurbation.

However that requires the govt. to choose just one city for this plan, and the electorate to accept that and both things are impossible in Ireland imo.
The original decentralisation scheme was mainly for vote buying with x jobs + construction projects for x town doled out graciously by the local "Big Man".
That is the kind of thing our electorate and politicians can get behind and understand, not a "real" decentralisation project that would require planning, strategy and difficult decisions.

AFAIK there are some incentives for setting up shop in the IFSC for financial companies. Could be wrong though but that was the word on the street

hytrogen · 23-08-2017 11:56PM

keeponhurling wrote:

the Marine Institute was decentralised from Dublin to Oranmore, Co. Galway

But sure who wants to hear from a bunch of hairy nerds with their glorified fish finders? :P

hytrogen · 24-08-2017 12:06AM

screamer wrote:

Smart decentralisation yes. Forget moving your public sector offices..... Build hubs for similar industries in towns where we have ITs so that they can partner up with the colleges to ensure they have a great pipeline of employees.....and as I said, specialise. It's very possible for IT companies for example to exist beside each other and with a good pool of people to draw from each other it can work. Also put in high speed bullet Train station and be done with it. Commuting will be a huge part of rural life forever so just get on with it and give people choice and a bit of work life balance....

Aah but as we've been reading about with the cluster fup of CIT/UCC in the MERC decentralising centres out to back orafaces can quite easily be forgotten, mismanaged and dejected, thus proving we cannot depend on our education institutional governance anymore for reliable graduates and project coordination. That took a significant dip in our future energy's market when it broke in the news..

screamer · 24-08-2017 12:15AM

hytrogen wrote: »

Aah but as we've been reading about with the cluster fup of CIT/UCC in the MERC decentralising centres out to back orafaces can quite easily be forgotten, mismanaged and dejected, thus proving we cannot depend on our education institutional governance anymore for reliable graduates and project coordination. That took a significant dip in our future energy's market when it broke in the news..

It's worked in other countries so perhaps we have something missing here to make it work. I do believe if done correctly it is a very viable option.

Victor · 24-08-2017 01:07AM

We have never had proper decentralisation (the transfer of authority from central to local government) in this country. In certain cases, it has been the other way around (abolition of health boards). We have experience the moving of centralised power to dispersed locations. If, for example, you take the Department of Defence, the department was merely moved from one location to another. This does not give any authority to anyone but the people in that one location.

I wouldn't necessarily be averse to moving central government en masse to a different location.

Similarly, I wouldn't necessarily be averse to allowing local government taking the related functions from central government - the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport control the Local Government Fund.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

All of the buildings rented would be tied into leases. The government cant just walk away when they feel like it.

Most leases can be assigned to a new tenant.

Deusexmachina · 24-08-2017 01:13AM

Parochial small minded nonsense. We live in a tiny country yet it's still too big for some of the inhabitants.
Decentralisation - an excuse for some yokel politician to boast 'about all de jobs I got for ye'. More needless gormless money wasting by our public service (instead of focusing on delivering actual service).

beauf · 24-08-2017 01:17AM

The point about the leases was part of the savings was inferred to be because we could sell the buildings. But we didn't own a lot of them they were leased.

Deusexmachina · 24-08-2017 01:18AM

impega1 wrote: »

Portarlington has a great service. Portlaoise has improved since arrow/commuter service was extended.

Tullamore - yes poor enough service.

However, if decision to centralise CS to an area around these locations was reached, it would not be unthinkable to add additional trains to meet demands.

Also road network to these areas are fairly decent

Have you ever lived in a country with a proper infrastructure?

beauf · 24-08-2017 01:23AM

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Parochial small minded nonsense. We live in a tiny country yet it's still too big for some of the inhabitants.
Decentralisation - an excuse for some yokel politician to boast 'about all de jobs I got for ye'. More needless gormless money wasting by our public service (instead of focusing on delivering actual service).

It was foisted on the PS by the politicians.

While Progressive Democrats' OPW minister Tom Parlon wasted no time in erecting 'Welcome to Parlon Country' billboards in his Laois-Offaly constituency, it was the fact that the plans flew in the face of national policy which caused controversy and stuck in the craw of so many.

Just a year earlier, the government had announced its first National Spatial Strategy, which designed nine 'gateways', including Dublin, for growth, and nine subsidiary 'hubs'. Of 77 projects, just 20 were destined for a gateway or hub. The Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants also expressed dismay at the suggestion they were to be "distributed as trophies in advance of local elections" due in June 2004.

http://www.independent.ie/life/moving-in-the-wrong-direction-the-decentralisation-debacle-35345392.html

nice_guy80 · 24-08-2017 09:30AM

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

I moved from Dublin to Wexford over 30 years ago. No amount of money would tempt me back. However, if I was in Dublin with a young family and was offered decentralisation, I'd have to give serious consideration not to, on account of the state of provincial hospitals and lack of 3rd level colleges. Every location has ups and downs

Funny
Then why do people in County Roscommon, with no 3rd level college in the county, have the highest third level participation levels in the country?

And they have the highest life expectancy in Ireland, despite having only a small local hospital in the county.

ohnonotgmail · 24-08-2017 09:41AM

Victor wrote: »

We have never had proper decentralisation (the transfer of authority from central to local government) in this country. In certain cases, it has been the other way around (abolition of health boards). We have experience the moving of centralised power to dispersed locations. If, for example, you take the Department of Defence, the department was merely moved from one location to another. This does not give any authority to anyone but the people in that one location.

I wouldn't necessarily be averse to moving central government en masse to a different location.

Similarly, I wouldn't necessarily be averse to allowing local government taking the related functions from central government - the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport control the Local Government Fund.

Most leases can be assigned to a new tenant.

Assuming a new tenant can be found that is willing to pay the rent the government is currently paying. they're not know for getting bargain rents.

Ush1 · 24-08-2017 09:50AM

Victor wrote: »

We have never had proper decentralisation (the transfer of authority from central to local government) in this country. In certain cases, it has been the other way around (abolition of health boards). We have experience the moving of centralised power to dispersed locations. If, for example, you take the Department of Defence, the department was merely moved from one location to another. This does not give any authority to anyone but the people in that one location.

I wouldn't necessarily be averse to moving central government en masse to a different location.

Similarly, I wouldn't necessarily be averse to allowing local government taking the related functions from central government - the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport control the Local Government Fund.

Most leases can be assigned to a new tenant.

Local planning is dealt with by the local council.

drake70 · 24-08-2017 10:04AM

Plenty of information regarding decentralisation here:

http://www.decentralisation.gov.ie/index.html

Should decentralisation be considered again?

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