Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? READ POST 1

red ears · 18-08-2017 09:16AM

silverharp wrote: »

I heard that yesterday and the reason given was amending the courses. What in broad terms did they do?

Oh dear, if changing the course resulted in boys doing better there will be heavy pressure to change it back.

silverharp · 18-08-2017 09:16AM

red ears wrote: »

Oh dear, if changing the course resulted in boys doing better there will be heavy pressure to change it back.

I had that thought too

silverharp · 18-08-2017 09:27AM

from after hours and props to prof

professore wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/08/17/a-level-results-2017-first-rise-top-grades-six-years-despite/

Here it is, Ladies and Gentlemen, from this year's A level stats broken down by gender. Computing looks about 10% girls and Performing / Expressive Arts is about 90% girls. This is of course somehow due to rampant sexism. Nothing to do with their actual interests.

Also interesting is that boys are slightly ahead of girls for the first time since 2000 - tellingly they have placed less emphasis on coursework and more on the actual exam, which would advantage boys if they are worse communicators than girls on average.

Exactly what you would expect if James Damore's paper is accurate.

Also the 10% of girls that studied Computing probably did just as well or better than the 90% of boys. As did the 10% of boys that studied Performing / Expressive Arts.

If James had been working for a theatre company and suggested women were more suited on average to Performing / Expressive Arts but otherwise written the exact same paper and left out the word Neuroticism (which is one of the 5 big psychological traits, not some disease) there would have been zero argument.

Also there is no big push to get men into the Performing / Expressive Arts. Why is this I wonder?

El_Duderino 09 · 18-08-2017 09:30AM

silverharp wrote: »

I heard that yesterday and the reason given was amending the courses. What in broad terms did they do?

One article said they removed the AS level (I don't know what that is). They shifted emphasis away from coursework and towards he final exam and shifted emphasis towards maths in physics and chemistry.

The coverage is focused on the % of A and A* results so I don't know what happened elsewhere in the results. Last year bits were 0.3% below girls in A and A* results. This year they're 0.5 above girls.

silverharp · 18-08-2017 01:48PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

One article said they removed the AS level (I don't know what that is). They shifted emphasis away from coursework and towards he final exam and shifted emphasis towards maths in physics and chemistry.

The coverage is focused on the % of A and A* results so I don't know what happened elsewhere in the results. Last year bits were 0.3% below girls in A and A* results. This year they're 0.5 above girls.

interestingly colleges there have started ignoring results and offering places to students that they want, I dont know the numbers involved. they also probably dont have the same pressure for places so absolute results arent that important at the margin

iptba · 18-08-2017 02:06PM

The Leaving Cert results broken down by gender are up at examinations.ie: https://www.examinations.ie/statistics/

I think it is interesting to look at the top grade (Grade 1=A1) at honours level as you will generally need some natural aptitude to get such a grade, just being a good student isn't enough.

Languages:
Irish: girls: 799 boys: 346 ratio: 1:0.43
French: girls: 616 (66%) boys: 314 ratio: 1:0.51
German: girls: 196 boys: 110 ratio: 1:0.56
Spanish: girls: 277 boys: 134 ratio: 1:0.48

English: girls: 675 boys: 441 ratio: 1:0.65

Mathematics: girls: 279 boys: 675 ratio: 1: 2.42

If it was just down to girls working harder, this is not the type of pattern you would expect.

deaddonkey15 · 18-08-2017 04:58PM

iptba wrote: »

Languages:
Irish: girls: 799 boys: 346 ratio: 1:0.43
French: girls: 616 (66%) boys: 314 ratio: 1:0.51
German: girls: 196 boys: 110 ratio: 1:0.56
Spanish: girls: 277 boys: 134 ratio: 1:0.48

English: girls: 675 boys: 441 ratio: 1:0.65

Fair enough, seems like girls tend to have a greater interest/aptitude for learning languages than boys.

iptba wrote: »

Mathematics: girls: 279 boys: 675 ratio: 1: 2.42

SEXISM! The system favours boys!

Pawwed Rig · 18-08-2017 07:26PM

silverharp wrote: »

interestingly colleges there have started ignoring results and offering places to students that they want, I dont know the numbers involved. they also probably dont have the same pressure for places so absolute results arent that important at the margin

That is whyn the CAO process was introduced

gizmo555 · 22-08-2017 07:20AM

Excellent letter in today's (22/08/17) "Irish Times" calling the newspaper and Una Mullally out on their anti-male sexism - from a woman:

Many men are offended by Una Mullally’s linking of the Charlottesville rally to “toxic masculinity” (Opinion & Analysis, August 18th). I think it is important that women are also outspoken in opposition to this type of dangerous and divisive language.

Would The Irish Times have published an article blaming IS terrorist attacks on “toxic Islam”?

Would an article linking the abuse perpetrated by some nuns to “toxic femininity” be acceptable? I think not.

Most of those attending the rally were men, but that is not to say that some women do not hold the same racist views. Also, these men did not come out of a vacuum. How many of them were reared in homes headed up by racist and bigoted women?

What about the “masculinity” of the majority of men who oppose these views?

There is no doubt that misogyny still exists and that women have to continue to oppose sexism in its many guises; however, a term such as “toxic masculinity” is offensive and sexist.

The article correctly demonstrates how the “alt-right” uses reasonable-sounding terminology to legitimise extreme views and cautions against absentmindedly adopting the same language.

However. this works both ways – the language used by women in the feminist cause is being watched very carefully by those who want to label feminists as just men-haters.

Words matter, and Una Mullally is in danger of feeding the trolls with hers.

py2006 · 22-08-2017 11:15AM

Nice to read but her final sentence lets it down.

'Trolls' being those who criticise elements of modern day feminism.

Una Mullally is long passed 'being in danger' of giving credence to the toxic feminist view of men today and shows the double standard of the media which would sack any man with similar views of women.

Carlos Orange · 22-08-2017 12:01PM

No

py2006 wrote: »

Una Mullally is long passed 'being in danger' of giving credence to the toxic feminist view of men today and shows the double standard of the media which would sack any man with similar views of women.

Is Una not just a walking,talking,typing stereotype of feminism?
If she wrote for a site I didn't recognise she could even be mistaken for a parody of feminism.

py2006 · 22-08-2017 12:08PM

psinno wrote: »

Is Una not just a walking,talking,typing stereotype of feminism?
If she wrote for a site I didn't recognise she could even be mistaken for a parody of feminism.

Yep. but the Irish Times is giving her an unedited platform

H3llR4iser · 22-08-2017 01:45PM

Frankly, the most significant data, to me, is what shows up here:

The difference in some subjects is staggering - only about 10% of the students taking Computing were girls; Which in turn reflects the employment market in the same sector. Put out an ad looking for software engineers, developers, sysadmins and so on and about 90% of the CVs you receive are men's.

What's even worse, we're talking about young people - "digital natives", as we old farts call them; Girls and boys who are, practically, born with a laptop in their hands. Connected as soon as they can achieve any level of hand-eye coordination; IT/Computing is integral part of their lives since day 1 and yet, when push comes to shove, girls "retreat" to the classical subjects.

Same goes for other scientific subjects - see Physics, for example; and people then wonder why there's a lack of women in STEM...

ligerdub · 22-08-2017 02:19PM

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Frankly, the most significant data, to me, is what shows up here:

The difference in some subjects is staggering - only about 10% of the students taking Computing were girls; Which in turn reflects the employment market in the same sector. Put out an ad looking for software engineers, developers, sysadmins and so on and about 90% of the CVs you receive are men's.

What's even worse, we're talking about young people - "digital natives", as we old farts call them; Girls and boys who are, practically, born with a laptop in their hands. Connected as soon as they can achieve any level of hand-eye coordination; IT/Computing is integral part of their lives since day 1 and yet, when push comes to shove, girls "retreat" to the classical subjects.

Same goes for other scientific subjects - see Physics, for example; and people then wonder why there's a lack of women in STEM...

I know you haven't suggested this is a problem, but I don't see any inherent problem with this. If they are interested in these topics and want to study them then by all means. There is also a societal benefit for the most part with people having knowledge in some of these areas.

The problem for me is when they expect this to make them qualified to do [XYZ] job. There's also the problem of intellectually dishonesty within some of the liberal arts, and is taught from an area of extreme bias, almost mouling an army of soldiers to go forth and spout their bollox and grievances to the masses.

As you say, I don't think they can expect to be employed in any of those fields with a degree in social science or the like.

H3llR4iser · 22-08-2017 03:43PM

ligerdub wrote: »

I know you haven't suggested this is a problem, but I don't see any inherent problem with this. If they are interested in these topics and want to study them then by all means. There is also a societal benefit for the most part with people having knowledge in some of these areas.

The issue is in the skewed figures - when one, very defined (male) half of the population overwhelmingly goes for subjects that have a higher potential and practical yield in the employment market, while the other equally well defined (female) half goes into the exact opposite, a social problem is born.

The fact that this is completely voluntary is the most puzzling aspect of it - why do young women actively avoid subjects like Computing and Physics more than young men do? Is it the "nerd type" stigma and media portrayal of them? Is it really strong enough to overshadow the clear edge these subjects grant in the job market when it comes to the real world? Or maybe it's the parents, telling their girls that these are "more for boys"? Something else entirely?

The lack of women in STEM very, very clearly begins here; Yet nobody seems to even want to begin analyzing the situation at its roots, instead of just rambling about non-descript "sexism in STEM".

ligerdub wrote: »

The problem for me is when they expect this to make them qualified to do [XYZ] job. There's also the problem of intellectually dishonesty within some of the liberal arts, and is taught from an area of extreme bias, almost mouling an army of soldiers to go forth and spout their bollox and grievances to the masses.

As you say, I don't think they can expect to be employed in any of those fields with a degree in social science or the like.

Absolutely agree - and that's probably a very valid answer to my question above: liberal arts and anything coming under the same "umbrella" are often put in a light that's, how to say, extremely optimistic.

gizmo555 · 22-08-2017 03:52PM

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Absolutely agree - and that's probably a very valid answer to my question above: liberal arts and anything coming under the same "umbrella" are often put in a light that's, how to say, extremely optimistic.

One example that has stuck in my mind is a feature article in the "Irish Times" around a year ago, about the problems graduates were having finding work. A graduate interviewed for the piece expressed utter bewilderment at not being able to get a job, despite having a masters degree in Anglo-Irish literature ...

Dave0301 · 22-08-2017 05:19PM

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The fact that this is completely voluntary is the most puzzling aspect of it - why do young women actively avoid subjects like Computing and Physics more than young men do? Is it the "nerd type" stigma and media portrayal of them? Is it really strong enough to overshadow the clear edge these subjects grant in the job market when it comes to the real world? Or maybe it's the parents, telling their girls that these are "more for boys"? Something else entirely?

The lack of women in STEM very, very clearly begins here; Yet nobody seems to even want to begin analyzing the situation at its roots, instead of just rambling about non-descript "sexism in STEM".

Not entirely true. The Institute of Physics has commissioned a number of research projects into it and published their results.

They then produce resources that are designed to avoid gender stereotyping and to try and engage girls in Physics more.

It has been a few years since I looked at this in any great depth, but if you are interested I can dig up some of the studies that I read during my MA.

H3llR4iser · 22-08-2017 05:57PM

Dave0301 wrote: »

Not entirely true. The Institute of Physics has commissioned a number of research projects into it and published their results.

They then produce resources that are designed to avoid gender stereotyping and to try and engage girls in Physics more.

It has been a few years since I looked at this in any great depth, but if you are interested I can dig up some of the studies that I read during my MA.

Thanks - that looks interesting; I'll check these out more accurately later on.

The Black Oil · 22-08-2017 10:27PM

psinno wrote: »

Is Una not just a walking,talking,typing stereotype of feminism?
If she wrote for a site I didn't recognise she could even be mistaken for a parody of feminism.

Her default setting seems to be one of being permanently offended. She has complained on Twitter about things like women at festivals, that some awards thing for chefs was won entirely by men, or that no women were represented. Her entire world wide view seems to be consumed by gender - like O'Neill, those blinkers are not coming off any time soon.

Calhoun · 22-08-2017 10:44PM

The Black Oil wrote: »

Her default setting seems to be one of being permanently offended. She has complained on Twitter about things like women at festivals, that some awards thing for chefs was won entirely by men, or that no women were represented. Her entire world wide view seems to be consumed by gender - like O'Neill, those blinkers are not coming off any time soon.

To be fair she is the feminist version of Kevin Meyers, she just happens to be in fashion right now. Hopefully she will come up against it like Kevin at some point .

py2006 · 22-08-2017 10:49PM

Calhoun wrote: »

To be fair she is the feminist version of Kevin Meyers, she just happens to be in fashion right now. Hopefully she will come up against it like Kevin at some point .

She wont! It would have happened a longgg time ago!

Calhoun · 22-08-2017 11:01PM

py2006 wrote: »

She wont! It would have happened a longgg time ago!

I am sure someone would have said that about Kevin at some point and as things go out of style so do opinions .

iptba · 23-08-2017 12:05AM

Una Mullally has a lot of followers for someone from Ireland especially given the number of tweets*

https://twitter.com/UnaMullally

Tweets: 96K

Following: 361

Followers: 49.9K

*Some people might follow some people out of curiosity but would be less inclined to do it if they tweeted a lot.

Calhoun · 23-08-2017 02:21AM

iptba wrote: »

Una Mullally has a lot of followers for someone from Ireland especially given the number of tweets*

*Some people might follow some people out of curiosity but would be less inclined to do it if they tweeted a lot.

You know how it is in those circles, the echo chamber is as such that allot follow each other. I am not talking one political view point or another i mean on both sides of political spectrum you will find them all doing it.

There is an Irish guy who would be against liberal policies and he has around 30K. https://twitter.com/DaveCullenCF

Padraig Mor · 23-08-2017 08:46AM

According to the Irish Examiner, girls outperforming boys in the vast majority of Leaving Cert subjects is "one of the great dividends of evolving social values" and "embracing progress". Of course, "so much more needs to be done" such as "a better gender balance in top jobs, and pay equality".

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/women-living-different-lives--a-lot-done-but-a-lot-more-to-do-457532.html

Buffman · 23-08-2017 09:18AM

So, I was having a look through some of the Australian links a few posts back and some online comments mentioned this. The Goverment of Western Australia domestic violence helplines.

http://www.dcp.wa.gov.au/CrisisAndEmergency/Pages/Women%27s-Domestic-Violence-Helpline.aspx

Women’s Domestic Violence Helpline

The Women’s Domestic Violence Helpline is a state wide 24 hour service. This service provides support and counselling for women experiencing family and domestic violence. This includes phone counselling, information and advice, referral to local advocacy and support services, liaison with police if necessary and support in escaping situations of family and domestic violence. The service can refer women to safe accommodation if required. A telephone based interpreting service is available if required.
Telephone (08) 9223 1188 Free call 1800 007 339

In an emergency - if someone is in immediate danger - call the police on 000 now.

For other services that may be able to assist please click here>>

For more information about family and domestic violence click here>>
Freedom from Fear resources:

When you hurt your partner you hurt your children - fact sheet (PDF)

Has your partner hurt you? Information for victims of domestic violence - fact sheet (PDF)

http://www.dcp.wa.gov.au/CrisisAndEmergency/Pages/Men%27s-Domestic-Violence-Helpline.aspx

Men’s Domestic Violence Helpline

The Men’s Domestic Violence Helpline is a state wide 24 hour service. This service provides counselling for men who are concerned about their violent and abusive behaviours. The service can provide telephone counselling, information and referral to ongoing face to face services if required. This service can provide information about accessing legal advice, accommodation and other support services for people who have been served with a violence restraining order. Information and support is also available for men who have experienced family and domestic violence. A telephone based interpreting service is available if required.
Telephone (08) 9223 1199 Free call 1800 000 599

In an emergency - if someone is in immediate danger - call the police on 000 now.

For other services that may be able to assist please click here>>

For more information about family and domestic violence click here>>
Freedom from Fear resources:
How to deal with domestic violence - fact sheet (PDF)

When you hurt your partner you hurt your children - fact sheet (PDF)

How do I know if I'm abusive? - fact sheet (PDF)

Has your partner hurt you? Information for victims of domestic violence - fact sheet (PDF)

How to deal with domestic violence: a self-help booklet for men who want to change - 20 page A5 booklet (PDF)

Even the link that appears in both 'helplines' and at first glance looks to have a neutral title contains this:

Has your partner hurt you? Information for victims of domestic violence

It is very hard when a person you may love hurts or abuses
you. It is hard to understand why he chooses to hurt you. It can
be hard to explain to your family and friends that you may still
love him even though he abuses you.
Sometimes, because of the hurt that you’ve gone through, all of your positive feelings and love for him may have gone.
..............
Some women may use their partner’s alcohol or drug use to rationalise or excuse his abusive behaviour. Their partner may also use
it as an excuse to justify his violence.
...............
YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME.
He is responsible for his own behaviour and he is the only one who can
change it.
WILL THE VIOLENCE AND ABUSE KEEP HAPPENING?
The simple answer is yes, unless your partner accepts responsibility for
his behaviour and gets help to change. Generally speaking, your partner
will not stop being abusive just because you want him to. If you don’t
think he will take responsibility and change his attitudes and behaviour,
you will find yourself in the difficult position of having to decide whether to
keep living with the abuse.
Only you can judge your situation. You can’t change your partner –
he has to get the help himself. The Men’s Domestic Violence Helpline
provides men with an opportunity to call to receive help. They can speak
to a trained professional who will provide them with alternatives to their
abusive behaviour.
If your partner doesn’t decide to change his behaviour, you may decide
to leave. This can be a very hard decision for women to make, however,
support and help to do this is available. It is important to have strategies
for leaving, to ensure you and your children’s safety and wellbeing.

Calhoun · 23-08-2017 09:43AM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

According to the Irish Examiner, girls outperforming boys in the vast majority of Leaving Cert subjects is "one of the great dividends of evolving social values" and "embracing progress". Of course, "so much more needs to be done" such as "a better gender balance in top jobs, and pay equality".

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/women-living-different-lives--a-lot-done-but-a-lot-more-to-do-457532.html

What a strange article, it meanders around allot and im not quite sure on the relevance of it to Ireland bar the closing piece. Even at that the gender and pay gap arent as drastic as they call out, its like an opinion piece with no author showing.

Buffman · 24-08-2017 05:17PM

Buffman wrote: »

This 'author' also writes in the Irishtimes and has a specific 'target market' for her work, but this article has so many generalisations it's almost funny. Plenty of alternative views in the comments section though!:D

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4754914/Where-good-men-gone.html

Where have all the good men gone? These sassy, sophisticated, solvent women say they are struggling to find other halves that can measure up

Five single women share why they've struggled to find men worth dating

They ask if it is possible to find independent, attractive mid-life daters

One dating coach says there are seven women for every man aged 40-55

By Alana Kirk For The Daily Mail
Published: 22:15, 2 August 2017 | Updated: 16:04, 3 August 2017

Looks like the DM received some blowback from that 'article' and now have one from the male point of view. (The usual 'health warning' applies regarding the source.)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4817380/Where-good-women-gone.html

Where have all the good women gone? Men fight back with a vengeance against the women who SLAMMED chaps today as boring, grumpy slobs

Five single men share why they've struggled to find women worth dating

They ask if it is possible to find considerate women who don't want to rush things

One psychotherapist blames online dating and pornography for complications

silverharp · 24-08-2017 09:08PM

^^

could have been a better article, they still managed to call the men misogynists which they wouldnt have reversed in their original article and some of the men featured werent exactly everyman like the widower but they all made reasonable points.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-08-2017 09:01AM

silverharp wrote: »

^^

could have been a better article, they still managed to call the men misogynists which they wouldnt have reversed in their original article and some of the men featured werent exactly everyman like the widower but they all made reasonable points.

Could have been better?That article paints women as unthinking, unfeeling, money grabbing morons and you're still not happy.

Reading those 2 articles I just feel sad that the narrative is men VS women, and sad that so many people seem to delight in that narrative.

Just to clarify, do we like this type of narrative? When LON does it, its treated with vitriol. But this article isn't getting any of that treatment save to say 'could have been better'

Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? READ POST 1