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DNA Analysis

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    Yes, the name is familiar to my family tree but i'm not sure where he's from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭torrevieja


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Well, think about this way: what do you hope to gain from the test?

    If you're looking to find close relatives, you're better off employing more traditional methods of genealogy unless you're adopted.

    If you've already done the usual methods, well, DNA is a new tool in your belt and it can help you find more distant cousins. I think FTDNA has more Irish people in its database at the moment.

    To give you an idea: I tested on Ancestry and the closest matches were a first cousin once removed and a second cousin, both of whom I know personally.
    On the next level, a few new matches, some of whom responded to messages and some who didn't. I've been able to figure out the area they descend from on my tree in most cases.

    I also tested on FTDNA: uncovered a new third cousin which lead to a whole extra branch in Australia. I had her great-grandmother on my tree but had not investigated what happened to her.

    Gedmatch (third party) has ultimately led to the best results: uncovering a family mystery.

    so just to get this right i can get a dna test with one of these companies and then just upload the info to the other sites ? so really just pick the cheapest and wait for results ?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Not all have deals to do this. Do the homework on the various sites' FAQs.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,035 ✭✭✭OU812


    My mother rang me excitedly today telling me that she had bought an ancestry test for both her & my father as they're interested in following up some leads my research has thrown up. I've personally always wanted to do one but couldn't justify the cost right now, so I'm interested in whether or not I would need to do one now as I'm the first child & 50/50 from their DNA, would that mean my results would be the same as theirs?

    I'm planning on having a "clean" tree to input their data into, only containing family members I'm 100% sure of & not including the likes of GG Grandparents siblings where I would not be 100% sure of a match. Is this the correct procedure?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Definitely just do your parents first.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,035 ✭✭✭OU812


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Definitely just do your parents first.

    Reasoning?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Well, you'll get more hits on their dna than your own. You always start with the oldest generations possible.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I tested my mother and my father's sister. There's very few matches that I have that they don't have, and none of them is close.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Well, think about this way: what do you hope to gain from the test?

    If you're looking to find close relatives, you're better off employing more traditional methods of genealogy unless you're adopted.

    If you've already done the usual methods, well, DNA is a new tool in your belt and it can help you find more distant cousins. I think FTDNA has more Irish people in its database at the moment.

    To give you an idea: I tested on Ancestry and the closest matches were a first cousin once removed and a second cousin, both of whom I know personally.
    On the next level, a few new matches, some of whom responded to messages and some who didn't. I've been able to figure out the area they descend from on my tree in most cases.

    I also tested on FTDNA: uncovered a new third cousin which lead to a whole extra branch in Australia. I had her great-grandmother on my tree but had not investigated what happened to her.

    Gedmatch (third party) has ultimately led to the best results: uncovering a family mystery.

    I haven't made much use of GEDmatch yet. How do you go about getting the best out of GEDmatch? Do you just email your matches and hope for the best? I'm just a bit hesitant to send emails since it feels a bit invasive or something even though the person knows that's how they'll be contacted. It's the same reason why I haven't made much use of my FTDNA matches as well as having fewer matches and them being more distant.

    I have no idea where the connection would be on GEDmatch unlike Ancestry where there's usually a bit of a tree to look at. I've only had about four people contact me on GEDmatch as well as that with none being able to identify the connection. All of my matches are all quite far out on GEDmatch. My closest match is at 3.9 generations. I know who my fourth highest match is and he's my third cousin once removed with our shared ancestors being my 3x great grandparents. He's also my 49th highest match on Ancestry. I don't seem to be quite as lucky as other people in terms of matches on GEDmatch.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Yeah, I just email people. Some people have uploaded gedcoms.

    They also have a cool tool where you can resurrect the DNA of dead people if you have a child and a sibling of them. I did this for my father and got matches that are not on my or my aunt's list.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭JDERIC2017


    Hey, can anyone work this out.

    I have found a relation(William) through ancestry DNA, my great grandfather is William's grand uncle what does that make William to me?

    Thanks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23 fflynn


    JDERIC2017 wrote: »
    Hey, can anyone work this out.

    I have found a relation(William) through ancestry DNA, my great grandfather is William's grand uncle what does that make William to me?

    Thanks

    William would be a 2nd cousin of either your mother/father

    or '2nd cousin once removed' for you


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    How does Ancestry know when one Genetic Community is more likely than another? For example, I noticed my numbers have been increasing, but no changes. Irish in Derry is 26, but likely, yet Irish in Ulster East is 38 but only possible, same as Irish in Donegal East.


  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭Earnest


    JDERIC2017 wrote: »
    Hey, can anyone work this out.

    I have found a relation(William) through ancestry DNA, my great grandfather is William's grand uncle what does that make William to me?

    Thanks

    I make it second cousin once removed. Your parent would be a second cousin, since he/she must have the same great-grandparent as William.


  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭p15574


    Interesting story here, although presented in a very annoying fashion, about 40 pages with a couple of sentences per page - I think it's designed for a presentation. Basically, after about 30 pages, you find out that identical triplets each did a DNA test and got different results, even though they had previously confirmed they had identical DNA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    p15574 wrote: »
    Interesting story here, although presented in a very annoying fashion, about 40 pages with a couple of sentences per page - I think it's designed for a presentation. Basically, after about 30 pages, you find out that identical triplets each did a DNA test and got different results, even though they had previously confirmed they had identical DNA.

    There main issue here is that with tests such as AncestryDNA or 23andme is they consist of a 'chip' with x number of 'probes' generally on order of 1million. However there is a certain percentage of the probes which might produce an invalid result (eg. fault etc.)

    When they assign you a % for this region, it's based on modelling positive/negative results for SNP probes and comparing it to reference population. Of course if the specific test chip has a number of faults it can skew the results.

    There's a reason of course why these tests can be cheap, because they do cut corner.

    In comparison in medical genetics or in genome sequencing you are normally looking to read each position on order of 10-30x (eg. get minimum of 10 reads on each particular result). We are approaching the point where full genome sequencing is becoming extremely cheap.

    At the moment there is one company which will do a 30x sequence (eg. read every position on genome a minimum of 30 times) for about $1,200 -- this is fairly ground breaking price.

    To put it in perspective the first full human genome was only published in 2003 and cost nearly $3billion dollars in comparison!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    Any opinions on my query on Genetic Communities?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    This DNA study is being widely covered in today's UK media


  • Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭RGM


    I imagine the results of a study like that in any rural Irish village would be much more interesting, at least in terms of how many people are related to other people. Everyone would be related to everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭JamboMac


    RGM wrote: »
    I imagine the results of a study like that in any rural Irish village would be much more interesting, at least in terms of how many people are related to other people. Everyone would be related to everyone.

    Same with inner city Dublin, wonder how many brothers and sisters didn't know they were brothers and sisters.:D


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,118 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    JamboMac wrote: »
    Same with inner city Dublin, wonder how many brothers and sisters didn't know they were brothers and sisters.:D

    I taught in an inner city school and once had a class where out of 21, 18 were cousins with at least one other person in the class. All it takes is a couple of big families.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    I've been researching a rural village in the midlands and it's fascinating to see the inter-connectedness down through the generations.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    Anyone know anything about the R-M529 haplogroup?


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 Gloraghgirl


    GEDMATCH Numbers
    Carla Casey A106074
    Gill Casey A962767
    Mark Casey A346033


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Anyone know anything about the R-M529 haplogroup?

    M529 is another name (alias?) for R-L21. This is most common male Haplogroup in Ireland, Busby study (Royal Society) had the Irish sample showing up as over 70% L21. It's quite an old haplogroup arising during the Bronze age probably on the continent.

    Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

    There appears to be inverse relations between it and R-U106 when it comes to Britain in particular:

    wales-l21-u106.png


    S21 == U106
    Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

    Dr. Iain McDonald recently announced a new dating system for Y-DNa clades sitting under P312 (P312 is father clade of L21 and others). This uses BigY testing data from public projects. The dating he has for L21 is the following:

    Clade\t Best guess (95% confidence interval)
    L21 2934 BC (3638 BC — 2362 BC)

    Most L21+ men (90%) are also DF13+
    DF13 2602 BC (3112 BC — 2159 BC)

    As an example the three men from Rathlin Island (Early Bronze age) who had their genome published were:
    L21+ -> DF13+ -> DF21+

    SNP's like these form a 'cookie trail' defining 'clades' of men, eg. each man who is positive for particular SNP marker inherited that from a common ancestor at some point -- all way back to first man to carry it.

    So to put that in perspective 70%+ of current Irish male population probably descend (in direct male line) from one man who lived nearly 5k years ago!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    spurious wrote: »
    I taught in an inner city school and once had a class where out of 21, 18 were cousins with at least one other person in the class. All it takes is a couple of big families.

    Indeed marriages between cousins (distant or close) is one of reasons why nobody has potential for 4billion ancestors 32 generations ago! -- let alone fact that 4billion people didn't live on the planet at time! You basically end up with 'Pedigree collapse' over time.

    Genetically one way to see how closely related people are is to look for what are called 'Runs of Homozygosity' these are sections of genome where the chunk of DNA on one chromsome (say from your father) matches a chunk on other chromosome pair (that you got from your mother)

    The long and more frequent these chunks the more closely related two individuals are due to shared ancestry. There was a paper published there comparing Irish, Swedish, SE English and 'Utah' (Mormans with mostly English/German ancestry -- a default pop reference)
    ROH

    The observation of a subtle degree of isolation for the Irish group at the LD level is also in agreement with the results of our ROH analysis. Again we see very similar patterning across populations, but our results suggest that the Irish population has the largest proportion of the genome in ROH (as measured by FROH1), relative to the British and HapMap CEU populations examined here (Figure 3). Overall, the Irish and Swedish populations seem slightly different from the others in the context of ROH. Both the Irish and Swedish populations showed, on an average, a greater number of ROH, an increased maximum ROH length, as well as an increased proportion of the genome in homozygous runs, compared with that of the Scottish, southern English and Utah populations. Similarly, the mean level of individual autozygosity per population as measured by FROH22 was highest for the Irish group (Figure 4). Together, these results suggest slightly increased autozygosity in the Irish cohort compared with the British and Swedish cohorts.
    Autozygosity is generated by increased levels of kinship, which in turn reflects the population history of Ireland. Although relatively undisturbed by secondary migrations,5, 26 the population of Ireland has undergone expansions and contractions at numerous points in recent history (eg, two major famines since 1600, disease epidemics, expansion in the first half of the 19th century). Aside from these features, the increased autozygosity may also reflect legacies of Gaelic family structures and comparatively low levels of migration that are in part due to a lack of industrial revolution in Ireland.

    To test a hypothesis of increased autozygosity due to features of relatively recent population history, we examined the patterning of homozygosity looking for signals of parental relatedness over the last four or five generations. Previous work has illustrated that parental relatedness arising within four to six generations predominantly affects ROH over 5 Mb in length.22 We therefore compared this statistic across populations. Results show that the Irish and Swedish populations have around 10 times as much of their genomes in ROH over 5 Mb in length than the southern English, and 1.5–3 times as much as Scotland and Utah (Figure 4).
    Ireland remains as the population with the most homozygous runs and the longest sum length of homozygosity. This provides further evidence that the elevated proportion of shorter ROH, and hence the number of ancient pedigree loops in Ireland, is indeed real and not driven by a limited number of offspring of cousins.

    Famine and mass emigration may have driven the increased levels of autozygosity in the Irish population. However, we consider it likely that the increased levels we have observed are at least partially attributable to the genetic remnants of ancient Gaelic patrilineal dynasties,33, 34, 35 in combination with the traditionally agricultural nature of Irish society. Ireland was not affected by industrial revolution to the same extent as Britain. Industrial revolution has been associated with mass migration from rural to urban communities and an expansion of effective population size. The absence of such a pattern in Ireland would have resulted in an extended adherence to primogeniture-style inheritance of land, with frequently only one adult sibling from each family being enabled to marry and reproduce by accession to farm ownership. Such patterns would have restricted growth in effective population size. However, a potential confounder in this study is the sampling scheme: at least in areas with little mobility, recruiting primarily from rural as opposed to urban areas could increase levels of autozygosity, as could sampling a group of people who were born earlier.36

    Similar to Ireland, Sweden has also traditionally been an agricultural society. Although the industrial revolution drove urbanization in Sweden towards the end of the 19th century, the more recent time to population bottleneck (as indicated by the LDU map) and the resulting rapid expansion during the 20th century might be contributing to the lack of diversity we observe in our data. Further, work taking these variables into account will be necessary to fully understand the causes underlying the patterns we see.

    Population structure and genome-wide patterns of variation in Ireland and Britain

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987482/


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Basically the Irish and the Swedes are more inbred than the English, didn't turn out too bad for the Swedes though ;)

    What I would say is one of direct results of destruction of Gaelic Ireland during the Tudor conquest was the fact that we became alot more 'Orthodox' when it came to church teachings on marriage. As a result marriage between close cousins (via traditional church definition of forbidden degree) declined hugely particularly as Church gained more power post Penal Law period.
    “Ecclesiastical dispensations from the impediment of consanguinity were studied in relation to 190,557 marriages between two Catholics in all Ireland for the ten-year period 1959–1968. The data, based on approximately 71% of all marriages in this period, indicate a first cousin marriage rate of about 1 in 720 for all Ireland. Figures for the Republic of Ireland, based on approximately 91% of all marriages, indicate a first cousin marriage rate of about 1 in 625 for this section of the country. Various aspects of the data, including ‘isolate’ effects and the influence of itinerancy, are discussed.”
    (that's basically 0.16% of marriages)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    dubhthach wrote: »
    M529 is another name (alias?) for R-L21. This is most common male Haplogroup in Ireland, Busby study (Royal Society) had the Irish sample showing up as over 70% L21. It's quite an old haplogroup arising during the Bronze age probably on the continent.

    Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

    There appears to be inverse relations between it and R-U106 when it comes to Britain in particular:

    wales-l21-u106.png


    S21 == U106
    Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

    Dr. Iain McDonald recently announced a new dating system for Y-DNa clades sitting under P312 (P312 is father clade of L21 and others). This uses BigY testing data from public projects. The dating he has for L21 is the following:

    Clade\t Best guess (95% confidence interval)
    L21 2934 BC (3638 BC — 2362 BC)

    Most L21+ men (90%) are also DF13+
    DF13 2602 BC (3112 BC — 2159 BC)

    As an example the three men from Rathlin Island (Early Bronze age) who had their genome published were:
    L21+ -> DF13+ -> DF21+

    SNP's like these form a 'cookie trail' defining 'clades' of men, eg. each man who is positive for particular SNP marker inherited that from a common ancestor at some point -- all way back to first man to carry it.

    So to put that in perspective 70%+ of current Irish male population probably descend (in direct male line) from one man who lived nearly 5k years ago!

    Again, this line is the Scottish line so somewhat surprising, it sounds like there is some sort of lie in my family tree.

    What does "inverse relations" infer?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Again, this line is the Scottish line so somewhat surprising, it sounds like there is some sort of lie in my family tree.

    What does "inverse relations" infer?

    I'm not sure I follow, R-L21 is also the most common haplogroup in all of Scotland, in Busby study (published by Royal Society) 52.38% of the Scottish sample (n=168) was R-L21+ (excluding Orkney).

    When you include Orkney, the total sample set grows to 280 and R-L21 comes in at 45%, this is due to Orkney history as part of wider Scandinavian world up until the 15th century.

    L21 has a plurality in England, with regards to comparison with U106 the inverse relation is the ratio of L21:U106

    eg. higher ration of L21:U106 in western England than eastern England (it forms a cline) -- comparison form Busby:

    'East England'
    R-L21: 12.8%
    R-U106: 24%

    Basically a 1:2 ratio

    'England Northwest'
    R-L21: 40.4%
    R-U106: 21.3%

    A 2:1 ration in comparison. This is probably due to the fact that R-U106 is intrusion in Britain from sub-Roman period onwards and reflects that modern English are an admixed population made up of mixed Romano-British (eg. speakers of both Latin and of language like Welsh) and Anglo-Saxon origin.

    L21 appears to have been in NW Europe since at least the Bronze age and peaks today in areas where a Celtic language is spoken or has been spoken within the last 500-1000 years.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 260 ✭✭Irishweather


    Is it possible for me to get my DNA onto a surname program to see who I match up with, without buying another FDNA test? I thought I would've been able to trace the origins of my Paternal line through the Haplogroup, but I guess not?

    I'm not surprised about the difference in England as there is quite a large difference there. Tbh, I didn't expect any English anyway. Interesting none the less.

    Another user commented on my lack of Scandinavia from another site. What does that indicate? No mixing?


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