Irish Border and Brexit

solodeogloria · 11-08-2017 12:35PM

knipex wrote: »

I can assure you were are giving as much if not more consideration to the UK as the UK did to Ireland when it voted out..

Good afternoon!

I have some selfish reasons to care about the UK in these negotiations. I make my bread and butter here, and I live here. Many close friends live here. So yes, I'm looking for the very best deal for the UK.

My point still stands about scrutinising both sides, and looking for accommodation from the European Union in respect to Ireland's interests including that of the Irish land border and trade in goods that require transport through the UK. It isn't acceptable to suggest that the EU can apply consequences that affect Ireland in a hugely negative way just because the UK has made a decision.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

swampgas · 11-08-2017 12:41PM

Solo seems to view the UK - EU negotations as if they were a bilateral discussion between two neighbouring countries, like (say) France - Germany before the EC / EU came along, where there would be lots of scope for compromise.

The EU is a union of 28 countries, one of which wants out. The EU is much more about the remaining 27 and the trade deals they have with the wider world than it is about pandering to the UK's desire for a bizarre special deal that will dig them out of a hole entirely of their own making.

The relationship between the remaining 27 is going to be very much the same after Brexit. The way the EU-27 deals with third countries is already established and unlikely to change much either, except to improve, for example with the trade deal with Japan. The experiences of Switzerland and Norway show that the EU countries are extremely unlikely to want to rebuild the EU just to accommodate an awkward member who wants to leave.

Hard Brexit will cause a hard border with the EU, and that means a hard border with NI. Any fudge to get around this would require fundamental changes to the way the EU operates, and frankly this is one case where the tail should not be wagging the dog.

The UK started this, they are pushing ahead with it, they can own it too and accept that it is they, and not the EU, that are the instigators of the problems that will arise in Ireland as a result.

.

Chips Lovell · 11-08-2017 12:42PM

I think it goes without saying that the EU has a responsibility to act in its own member states' best interests, including Ireland's. Why wouldn't it? The member states are, after all, the EU.

Even if, for some bizarre reason, it decided to act in Britain's best interests instead, it couldn't, since the what exactly the British want is in no way clear.

solodeogloria · 11-08-2017 12:46PM

swampgas wrote: »

Solo seems to view the UK - EU negotations as if they were a bilateral discussion between two neighbouring countries, like (say) France - Germany before the EC / EU came along, where there would be lots of scope for compromise.

The EU is a union of 28 countries, one of which wants out. The EU is much more about the remaining 27 and the trade deals they have with the wider world than it is about pandering to the UK's desire for a bizarre special deal that will dig them out of a hole entirely of their own making.

The relationship between the remaining 27 is going to be very much the same after Brexit. The way the EU-27 deals with third countries is already established and unlikely to change much either, except to improve, for example with the trade deal with Japan. The experiences of Switzerland and Norway show that the EU countries are extremely unlikley to want to rebuild the EU just to accommodate an awkward member who wants to leave.

Hard Brexit will cause a hard border with the EU, and that means a hard border with NI. Any fudge to get around this would require fundamental changes to the way the EU operates, and frankly this is one case where the tail should not be wagging the dog.

The UK started this, they are pushing ahead with it, they can own it too and accept that it is they, and not the EU, that are the instigators of the problems that will arise in Ireland as a result.

Good afternoon!

I've not got much to reply to this apart from a question about the bolded section. The outlook on this thread is admittedly very bizarre. It seems to suggest that the EU can do whatever it wants to Ireland in order to give the UK a good telling off. Or indeed that the EU can have no part in the "creative solutions" that it itself calls for.

If the EU considers Ireland as collateral damage in the Brexit negotiations, what does that say about how the EU views Ireland?

That is a reasonable question and it's one that demands an answer.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

knipex · 11-08-2017 12:54PM

First Up wrote: »

You miss my point. If goods from the UK cross the Irish border without restriction, they can be transported elsewhere in the EU via an Irish port.

These could be goods of UK origin, or goods imported from elsewhere under whatever trade terms the UK agrees with third countries. They can be brought into ROI and then re-packed and re-loaded before being shipped to elsewhere in the Single Market.

If Ireland is not policing its EU border, then others will do it for us.

Not if the border was on the Irish sea. This would mean NI remains in the EU..

Chips Lovell · 11-08-2017 12:55PM

I think if you continue to see a.) the EU as some sort of charitable organization that ought to be nice to the UK but is instead being unaccountably mean to it and b.) Ireland as somehow separate to rather than part of EU decision making, then you will continue to find the general consensus bizarre.

Ireland is the EU as much as any other member state is.

knipex · 11-08-2017 01:06PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I've not got much to reply to this apart from a question about the bolded section. The outlook on this thread is admittedly very bizarre. It seems to suggest that the EU can do whatever it wants to Ireland in order to give the UK a good telling off. Or indeed that the EU can have no part in the "creative solutions" that it itself calls for.

If the EU considers Ireland as collateral damage in the Brexit negotiations, what does that say about how the EU views Ireland?

That is a reasonable question and it's one that demands an answer.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

This has been explained to you over and over and over and over and over.

The UK voted out,. The UK wants out the UK has to live with that and accept all the consequences.

Unfortunately others (including Ireland) also have to live with the consequences.

The EU cannot and will not rewrite the rules for the UK or Ireland or anyone..

That was plain when the UK wanted out but they chose to ignore that (much the same as you are choosing to do now)

You can moan and shout all you want but it will have as much impact as when my 5 years old daughter screams and moans about going to bed when its bed time....

Hint she just annoys everyone else..

(Which when you think about it is kind of like the UK at the moment..)

murphaph · 11-08-2017 01:16PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I've not got much to reply to this apart from a question about the bolded section. The outlook on this thread is admittedly very bizarre. It seems to suggest that the EU can do whatever it wants to Ireland in order to give the UK a good telling off. Or indeed that the EU can have no part in the "creative solutions" that it itself calls for.

If the EU considers Ireland as collateral damage in the Brexit negotiations, what does that say about how the EU views Ireland?

That is a reasonable question and it's one that demands an answer.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The EU is us, the member states.

The EU isn't "doing anything" to Ireland here. The rules are all agreed, including the rules about the external frontier. These are rules all EU citizens rely on when eating anything that came across that frontier!

We just didn't expect to have an external (land) frontier in Ireland, but we will have one and we, as a mature country (not like our immediate neighbours) will have to deal with that as best we can, hopefully with assistance from our EU partners.

The UK knew the rules and exactly where leaving would place the RoI, but said "sod it, we're off" anyway.

solodeogloria · 11-08-2017 01:17PM

knipex wrote: »

This has been explained to you over and over and over and over and over.

The UK voted out,. The UK wants out the UK has to live with that and accept all the consequences.

Unfortunately others (including Ireland) also have to live with the consequences.

The EU cannot and will not rewrite the rules for the UK or Ireland or anyone..

That was plain when the UK wanted out but they chose to ignore that (much the same as you are choosing to do now)

You can moan and shout all you want but it will have as much impact as when my 5 years old daughter screams and moans about going to bed when its bed time....

Hint she just annoys everyone else..

(Which when you think about it is kind of like the UK at the moment..)

Good afternoon!

There's a number of assumptions in your post.

The UK voted out, but it is negotiating a new deal, to bring about a new relationship. Notice the difference in language. It's positive. Will things be exactly the same? No, but that's the point.

As for Ireland accepting the "consequences", the European Union as a whole should act in Ireland's best interests as a member state. I don't see it as a given that Ireland should tolerate "consequences" for what another country has decided to do and how the rest of the European Union has decided how it should respond to it.

You claim that the EU cannot rethink things for Ireland. I don't see why this is true or rather necessarily true. It's an assumption that you've made. Again, if the European Union really considers the interests of its member states then the possibility of coming up with an arrangement that works well for Ireland has to be on the table. If it isn't one could draw the conclusion that it is collateral damage.

The question I asked remains unanswered. The resigned stoicism about the fabled impossibility of EU intransigence, and a carte blanche to give "consequences" that are harmful to Ireland as a member state is remarkable! Perhaps this is why I fall into the Eurosceptic camp.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

First Up · 11-08-2017 01:31PM

murphaph wrote:

Yep and rightly so. I Poland decided to turn a blind eye to food coming across its external border I'm quite sure Germany and the Czech Republic would impose these checks too.

Which is why whatever arrangements are agreed for the island of Ireland, they will not be allowed result in our membership if the Single Market being diminished.

First Up · 11-08-2017 01:33PM

knipex wrote:

Not if the border was on the Irish sea. This would mean NI remains in the EU..

Which the swing-voting (for now) DUP say is not acceptable.

blanch152 · 11-08-2017 01:34PM

murphaph wrote: »

Yep and rightly so. I Poland decided to turn a blind eye to food coming across its external border I'm quite sure Germany and the Czech Republic would impose these checks too.

What's more, if Ireland didn't police its border, the EU would come in and do it, and charge us for it, and probable a large fine on top of that as well.

jm08 · 11-08-2017 01:35PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

There's a number of assumptions in your post.

The UK voted out, but it is negotiating a new deal, to bring about a new relationship. Notice the difference in language. It's positive. Will things be exactly the same? No, but that's the point.

As for Ireland accepting the "consequences", the European Union as a whole should act in Ireland's best interests as a member state. I don't see it as a given that Ireland should tolerate "consequences" for what another country has decided to do and how the rest of the European Union has decided how it should respond to it.

You claim that the EU cannot rethink things for Ireland. I don't see why this is true or rather necessarily true. It's an assumption that you've made. Again, if the European Union really considers the interests of its member states then the possibility of coming up with an arrangement that works well for Ireland has to be on the table. If it isn't one could draw the conclusion that it is collateral damage.

The question I asked remains unanswered. The resigned stoicism about the fabled impossibility of EU intransigence, and a carte blanche to give "consequences" that are harmful to Ireland as a member state is remarkable! Perhaps this is why I fall into the Eurosceptic camp.

What would be very harmful to Ireland is if the UK had a FTA with the EU who then went onto sign a deal with the US with Ireland having no say in that bilateral arrangement. Ireland would then have to compete with cheap imports from the US and being unable to keep their hormone riddled, genetically modified produce off the island of Ireland which would destroy our premium reputation for food.

blanch152 · 11-08-2017 01:36PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

There's a number of assumptions in your post.

The UK voted out, but it is negotiating a new deal, to bring about a new relationship. Notice the difference in language. It's positive. Will things be exactly the same? No, but that's the point.

As for Ireland accepting the "consequences", the European Union as a whole should act in Ireland's best interests as a member state. I don't see it as a given that Ireland should tolerate "consequences" for what another country has decided to do and how the rest of the European Union has decided how it should respond to it.

You claim that the EU cannot rethink things for Ireland. I don't see why this is true or rather necessarily true. It's an assumption that you've made. Again, if the European Union really considers the interests of its member states then the possibility of coming up with an arrangement that works well for Ireland has to be on the table. If it isn't one could draw the conclusion that it is collateral damage.

The question I asked remains unanswered. The resigned stoicism about the fabled impossibility of EU intransigence, and a carte blanche to give "consequences" that are harmful to Ireland as a member state is remarkable! Perhaps this is why I fall into the Eurosceptic camp.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The consequences that are harmful to Ireland directly arise from the stupidity of the British electorate, not because of intransigence on the part of the EU.

Stay in the Single Market, stay in the Customs Union, allow freedom of movement, and there will be no problem.

murphaph · 11-08-2017 01:37PM

I strongly suspect our EU partners will try to help us more than the UK has done with Brexit!

blanch152 · 11-08-2017 01:38PM

knipex wrote: »

Not if the border was on the Irish sea. This would mean NI remains in the EU..

Unfortunately, because of the North's dependency on trade with the UK, that would be a far worse outcome for the North than a hard border with the South, as the article linked to earlier in the thread demonstrates.

murphaph · 11-08-2017 01:40PM

jm08 wrote: »

What would be very harmful to Ireland is if the UK had a FTA with the EU who then went onto sign a deal with the US with Ireland having no say in that bilateral arrangement. Ireland would then have to compete with cheap imports from the US and being unable to keep their hormone riddled, genetically modified produce off the island of Ireland which would destroy our premium reputation for food.

That's a good point. If NI farmers start following currently banned practices to be able to compete with US imports, then even if we don't, damage to our reputation will be done. The border may need to be harder to convince would be customers that we are not affiliated with them. This could all get very messy indeed.

jm08 · 11-08-2017 01:42PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Unfortunately, because of the North's dependency on trade with the UK, that would be a far worse outcome for the North than a hard border with the South, as the article linked to earlier in the thread demonstrates.

It wouldn't be a problem for NI if the UK government allowed them export tariff free. It would be up to the ports in the UK to make sure they were not slipping in food that originated elsewhere in the EU.

knipex · 11-08-2017 01:45PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Unfortunately, because of the North's dependency on trade with the UK, that would be a far worse outcome for the North than a hard border with the South, as the article linked to earlier in the thread demonstrates.

Absolutely no argument here...

FrancieBrady · 11-08-2017 03:24PM

murphaph wrote: »

I strongly suspect our EU partners will try to help us more than the UK has done with Brexit!

That's another alternative, if they are honest brokers about the peace here, all three pay for a border manned by neutral EU officials.

Chips Lovell · 11-08-2017 03:44PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's another alternative, if they are honest brokers about the peace here, all three pay for a border manned by neutral EU officials.

If that's all it takes to defuse any tensions, it's a great idea and easy to implement.

murphaph · 11-08-2017 04:12PM

blanch152 wrote: »

What's more, if Ireland didn't police its border, the EU would come in and do it, and charge us for it, and probable a large fine on top of that as well.

I assume they would be entitled to treat ships and aircraft arriving ex Ireland as if they were coming from the UK and could impose full customs checks on them, and rightly so, especially if good safety standards in the UK diverge.

ThisRegard · 11-08-2017 05:47PM

blanch152 wrote: »

It is interesting also to consider the effects on retail here. Would the likes of Lidl, Aldi and Zara get a bigger boost while Debenhams, Tesco and M&S suffer?

Tesco anyway have their own massive distribution centres in Ireland from where they distribute around Ireland. Plus they have a huge amount of Irish suppliers.

I think, but maybe wrong, alot of the M&S stuff come from the UK, they wouldn't have a big enough presence to warrant any sort of big local distribution network.

murphaph · 11-08-2017 06:11PM

I expect many British high Street stores will leave the Republic in the event of the UK withdrawing from the customs union. Too much hassle for a relatively small market.

jimmycrackcorm · 11-08-2017 09:56PM

murphaph wrote:

I expect many British high Street stores will leave the Republic in the event of the UK withdrawing from the customs union. Too much hassle for a relatively small market.

No they will use it as an opportunity to bump up prices blaming Brexit. Be very profitable if you consider how many times people have complained already about a dual price tag here showing the likes of 8 euro / 5 pounds

paul2013 · 15-08-2017 04:40PM

I'm here with my Unionist friends and yes I call them friends because we shake hands every time we meet up for a chat and yes the know I'm from the south of Ireland and live there and the know I support a "United Ireland"

They have told me that they were looking for a county by county poll on handing back Ireland to Ireland as "If Tyrone voted for" accession to Ireland they would gladly join the Republic each of the other 5 counties would follow suit. They have stated this Mr Brokenshire who has bluntly refused to hear this.

I think it's an excellent proposal, What do you all think?

murphaph · 15-08-2017 04:50PM

paul2013 wrote: »

I'm here with my Unionist friends and yes I call them friends because we shake hands every time we meet up for a chat and yes the know I'm from the south of Ireland and live there and the know I support a "United Ireland"

They have told me that they were looking for a county by county poll on handing back Ireland to Ireland as "If Tyrone voted for" accession to Ireland they would gladly join the Republic each of the other 5 counties would follow suit. They have stated this Mr Brokenshire who has bluntly refused to hear this.

I think it's an excellent proposal, What do you all think?

No thanks. If there's any chance at all of unification being successful it requires the bit of NI that is halfway economically active. Tyrone or Derry would be like another 4 Donegals to the Exchequer to fund.

All or nothing from me.

Junkyard Tom · 15-08-2017 09:18PM

paul2013 wrote: »

I think it's an excellent proposal, What do you all think?

It would lead to repartition and the same problems would endure if not worsen. The UDA/Unionists contemplated repartition of the 6 counties before and thier plans included mass incarceration and ethnic cleansing of Catholics from the remainder. No thanks.

FrancieBrady · 15-08-2017 09:59PM

paul2013 wrote: »

I'm here with my Unionist friends and yes I call them friends because we shake hands every time we meet up for a chat and yes the know I'm from the south of Ireland and live there and the know I support a "United Ireland"

They have told me that they were looking for a county by county poll on handing back Ireland to Ireland as "If Tyrone voted for" accession to Ireland they would gladly join the Republic each of the other 5 counties would follow suit. They have stated this Mr Brokenshire who has bluntly refused to hear this.

I think it's an excellent proposal, What do you all think?

Realistic unionists, (their political leaders know it too) they know the writing is on the wall and are trying to rewrite the GFA.
'The worst thing that ever happened us' as Jim Molyneaux said.

FizzleSticks · 15-08-2017 10:06PM

This post has been deleted.

Irish Border and Brexit

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