Irish Border and Brexit

Bit cynical · 02-08-2017 11:31PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The point to remember is that the UK need to solve the border issue before trade talks can occur. This makes it their problem.

That's pretty nonsensical to be frank.

Just because our hands are tied doesn't mean we won't suffer the consequences if an agreement isn't reached between London and Brussels.

Yes the EU have decided that agreement has to be reached on many issues before trade talks have occurred but we in Ireland will suffer the consequences of that decision. That, unfortunately, makes it our problem.

steddyeddy · 02-08-2017 11:52PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

That's pretty nonsensical to be frank.

Just because our hands are tied doesn't mean we won't suffer the consequences if an agreement isn't reached between London and Brussels.

Yes the EU have decided that agreement has to be reached on many issues before trade talks have occurred but we in Ireland will suffer the consequences of that decision. That, unfortunately, makes it our problem.

Yes it is our problem. The border has been our problem for long enough. We shouldn't sit back, but we should veto any deal that's unaceptable.

jimmycrackcorm · 03-08-2017 12:11AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The point to remember is that the UK need to solve the border issue before trade talks can occur. This makes it their problem.

The border is our problem, and in particular for anyone who remembers travel between Donegal and Dublin and the queues at Strabane and Aughnacloy.

All the British worry about is people crossing the sea via airports and Ferries which have established security.

Bit cynical · 03-08-2017 12:18AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes it is our problem. The border has been our problem for long enough. We shouldn't sit back, but we should veto any deal that's unaceptable.

We are sitting back at the moment and waiting for the EU to negotiate on our behalf the sort of border we will have with the North.

The statement by Coveney in the opening post merely deflects attention away from this fact. All we know so far is that the EU will require us to have some sort of control at our border but that is all we know so far.

The problem is that Coveney and Varadkar are the least important players in any of this and they know it. Therefore they issue strong statements in the press. That is all they can do. The leader of the DUP has far more influence over the shape of the eventual border than anyone in the Irish Government.

At one point we wanted trade talks to run in parallel with other talks. We failed in this and instead we will have to wait. Where is the strong statement here? Are we still hoping that brexit won't happen?

First Up · 03-08-2017 07:34AM

Bit cynical wrote:

We are sitting back at the moment and waiting for the EU to negotiate on our behalf the sort of border we will have with the North.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

VinLieger · 03-08-2017 08:24AM

Bit cynical wrote: »

At one point we wanted trade talks to run in parallel with other talks. We failed in this and instead we will have to wait. Where is the strong statement here? Are we still hoping that brexit won't happen?

No we didn't, the EU countries have always been aligned 100% that freedom of movement along with their debts were to be agreed before anything else.

Also whats the point in discussing trade before a decision on a border which will affect trade has been decided?

Bishopsback · 03-08-2017 08:43AM

Bit cynical wrote: »

We are sitting back at the moment and waiting for the EU to negotiate on our behalf the sort of border we will have with the North.

The statement by Coveney in the opening post merely deflects attention away from this fact. All we know so far is that the EU will require us to have some sort of control at our border but that is all we know so far.

The problem is that Coveney and Varadkar are the least important players in any of this and they know it. Therefore they issue strong statements in the press. That is all they can do. The leader of the DUP has far more influence over the shape of the eventual border than anyone in the Irish Government.

At one point we wanted trade talks to run in parallel with other talks. We failed in this and instead we will have to wait. Where is the strong statement here? Are we still hoping that brexit won't happen?

We might be, maybe even the British are hoping it won't happen?
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/03/second-brexit-referendum-case-getting-stronger-political-deadlock-life-raft

LeinsterDub · 03-08-2017 09:16AM

sondagefaux wrote: »

A nicely timed article for this thread.

https://www.irishcentral.com/homepage/brexit-border-battle-about-to-change-irish-british-relationship-forever

The article sets out four options:

a. Trump-style wall
b. special status for Northern Ireland, keeping it in the EU
c. the Irish Sea as the border
d. reunification of Ireland

The article's author:

Forgive my ignorance but isn't special status just the Irish sea border plus? And wouldn't the Irish sea boarder require all Irish and Northern Irish goods to be checked entering the EU? Otherwise what's to stop something being transported south and onwards as Irish.

The Irish sea border doesn't seem workable without special status.

LeinsterDub · 03-08-2017 09:46AM

Also further to special status. NI companies will end up in a situation where they'll have no option but to abide by EU law and their competitors in Britain will be able to ignore them if they decide not to export. For example Moy Park would be unable to produce chlorinated chicken (assuming its been aloud again) so aren't competitive in Britain but also aren't competitive in the EU due to border crossing expense.

jm08 · 03-08-2017 10:57AM

This link is worth a look at even though its 3 months old.

'How will Brexit affect the Irish Border? Professor Michael Dougan explains the key issues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEY1WlsAR1I

For those who don't know Prof. Dougan, he is a legal expert on EU law working in Liverspool University.

Thomas__ · 03-08-2017 11:48AM

An interesting Suggestion in this article which is about Ireland joining the Schengen Region in order to avoid all the Trouble currently Happening at Airports this time. The article has of course a reference to the Irish border issue in regards of Brexit too:

http://www.independent.ie/life/travel/eoghan-corry-join-schengen-and-all-our-airport-queueing-issues-are-over-35995707.html

...
Ireland is not in Schengen for reasons that are pretty simple. When Leo Varadkar was transport minister he said we want to be in Schengen, but while we have a land border with stridently anti-Schengen Britain, we cannot. With Britain out and Northern Ireland still hanging in limbo, we had no choice.
How that particular landscape will change by March 2019 is as unclear as can be imagined. If Britain pulls out of the EU, staying out of Schengen may no longer be an option.
In Irish Brexit is called Breat-imeacht, which sounds pejorative. Across Europe they are calling it B'riddance (good riddance to the Brits).
Brexit may exacerbate border problems for us while we are in a separate visa region.
There is a clear option for Ireland to get rid of the airline queue problem.
Join Schengen.
Over to you, Leo.

It certainly has its merits, but without doubt, it would seale the Irish border matter to NI with a hard border that would be compulsive by the standards required by the Schengen Agreement which is the basis for the Schengen Region. If the British will reinstall a hard border in NI on their own initiative, Ireland would have to do the same in return and joining the Schengen Region in such circumstances would be just a formality.

PS: I never heard or read the expression "B'riddance (good riddance to the Brits) before. Although it sounds funny in some ways, I don´t think that it will all be that funny in reality when it happens.

Thomas__ · 03-08-2017 11:50AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

A nicely timed article for this thread.

https://www.irishcentral.com/homepage/brexit-border-battle-about-to-change-irish-british-relationship-forever

The article sets out four options:

a. Trump-style wall
b. special status for Northern Ireland, keeping it in the EU
c. the Irish Sea as the border
d. reunification of Ireland

The article's author:

Forgive my ignorance but isn't special status just the Irish sea border plus? And wouldn't the Irish sea boarder require all Irish and Northern Irish goods to be checked entering the EU? Otherwise what's to stop something being transported south and onwards as Irish.

The Irish sea border doesn't seem workable without special status.

No idea why that should be the case in regards to the Republic of Ireland.

LeinsterDub · 03-08-2017 12:02PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

No idea why that should be the case in regards to the Republic of Ireland.

A Northern Irish and Irish truck board a ferry and get to France how do the French know the Irish truck isn't full of Northern Irish goods? Smuggling would be rife.

Thomas__ · 03-08-2017 12:18PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

No idea why that should be the case in regards to the Republic of Ireland.

A Northern Irish and Irish truck board a ferry and get to France how do the French know the Irish truck isn't full of Northern Irish goods? Smuggling would be rife.

The first smuggling route would certainly be from NI to the Republic and then take to goods from the NI truck into the Irish truck before boarding the ferry to France. Otherwise the French can tell by the number plate of the two trucks.

Bishopsback · 03-08-2017 12:22PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

A Northern Irish and Irish truck board a ferry and get to France how do the French know the Irish truck isn't full of Northern Irish goods? Smuggling would be rife.

Then there's the Irish trucks entering mainland Europe from Britain, as many do, they will have to be checked on entry to Britain and at at the tunnel I'm sure. There will be lots of logistical nightmares when all is thought through.

Bit cynical · 03-08-2017 12:46PM

VinLieger wrote: »

No we didn't, the EU countries have always been aligned 100% that freedom of movement along with their debts were to be agreed before anything else.

This is somewhat contradicted by an article former foreign minister, Charlie Flanagan gave to the Financial Times:

In an interview with the Financial Times, Charlie Flanagan, Irish foreign minister, said an immediate row over the bill would shunt the negotiations into a cul-de-sac that would overshadow other issues, including the rights of EU citizens in the UK, trade and the status of the border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland.

“I would say to my European colleagues, don’t get hung up on the magnitude of the cheque,” Mr Flanagan said. “We want to give a fair wind to the negotiations and we don’t want anything early on that is going to cause conflict. Let’s agree the principle of liabilities first, and then go away and work them out . . . rather than going down a cul-de-sac over one particular issue.”

You can see here that Flanagan is worried that arguments about the bill will delay resolution of trade and other issues.

Also whats the point in discussing trade before a decision on a border which will affect trade has been decided?

But likewise what is the point of discussing the border when issues of trade have not been agreed? If an FTA were to be agreed then fairly minimal border infrastructure would be required as the incentive to smuggling would not be there to the same extent. If the UK reverts to WTO rules with Ireland then quite significant border infrastructure will be needed.

The question is what do we (Ireland) want. Apart from the UK, we are the country that will most be affected by the negotiations (possibly more so economically according to some predictions). I'm surprised most people are quite happy to let others make the decisions on the rather spurious basis that the UK initiated brexit. Do we think we will get some sort of reward for our self-sacrifice?

LeinsterDub · 03-08-2017 03:18PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

The question is what do we (Ireland) want. Apart from the UK, we are the country that will most be affected by the negotiations (possibly more so economically according to some predictions). I'm surprised most people are quite happy to let others make the decisions on the rather spurious basis that the UK initiated brexit. Do we think we will get some sort of reward for our self-sacrifice?

Others aren't making decisions we will have veto. What self-sacrifice? Our agenda is top of the EU agenda.

Bit cynical · 03-08-2017 03:36PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Others aren't making decisions we will have veto. What self-sacrifice? Our agenda is top of the EU agenda.

Can you show me that agenda? Just having a look through the position papes:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en?field_core_tags_tid_i18n=351&page=1

The border does not come up as a specific topic although it may get a mention in one of the papers.

The financial settlement, one of the things Ireland was hoping would not hold up talks on trade does get a position paper as does atomic energy cooperation and other issues.

So I'm afraid that when it comes to actual work being done, the border is not top of the agenda despite reassuring statements from Barnier et. al.

swampgas · 03-08-2017 03:42PM

Actually, from a UK perspective, there is a way to keep the Irish border open: Ireland also leaves the EU (or leaves to the same extent that the UK does). There have been noises from some in the UK suggesting that it would be best for Ireland to follow the UK out.

So maybe when the Bristish Government says they want to keep the border open, that's what they have in mind. Nothing else makes any sense.

VinLieger · 03-08-2017 03:42PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

This is somewhat contradicted by an article former foreign minister, Charlie Flanagan gave to the Financial Times:
In an interview with the Financial Times, Charlie Flanagan, Irish foreign minister, said an immediate row over the bill would shunt the negotiations into a cul-de-sac that would overshadow other issues, including the rights of EU citizens in the UK, trade and the status of the border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland.

“I would say to my European colleagues, don’t get hung up on the magnitude of the cheque,” Mr Flanagan said. “We want to give a fair wind to the negotiations and we don’t want anything early on that is going to cause conflict. Let’s agree the principle of liabilities first, and then go away and work them out . . . rather than going down a cul-de-sac over one particular issue.”
You can see here that Flanagan is worried that arguments about the bill will delay resolution of trade and other issues.

That quote is nothing near what you claimed

Bit cynical wrote: »

At one point we wanted trade talks to run in parallel with other talks.

Fratton Fred · 03-08-2017 03:42PM

Bishopsback wrote: »

Then there's the Irish trucks entering mainland Europe from Britain, as many do, they will have to be checked on entry to Britain and at at the tunnel I'm sure. There will be lots of logistical nightmares when all is thought through.

This is by no means a unique position and is well catered for under international treaties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIR_Convention

LeinsterDub · 03-08-2017 03:43PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Can you show me that agenda? Just having a look through the position papes:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en?field_core_tags_tid_i18n=351&page=1

The border does not come up as a specific topic although it may get a mention in one of the papers.

The financial settlement, one of the things Ireland was hoping would not hold up talks on trade does get a position paper as does atomic energy cooperation and other issues.

So I'm afraid that when it comes to actual work being done, the border is not top of the agenda despite reassuring statements from Barnier et. al.

Avoiding a hard Border between Northern Ireland and the Republic is one of three priorities for the EU as it enters the first phase of Brexit negotiations, European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker has said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/brexit-avoiding-hard-border-one-of-three-talks-priorities-for-eu-1.3086165

VinLieger · 03-08-2017 03:44PM

swampgas wrote: »

Actually, from a UK perspective, there is a way to keep the Irish border open: Ireland also leaves the EU (or leaves to the same extent that the UK does). There have been noises from some in the UK suggesting that it would be best for Ireland to follow the UK out.

So maybe when the Bristish Government says they want to keep the border open, that's what they have in mind. Nothing else makes any sense.

Exactly nothing else makes any sense but us following them out of the EU is not likely to happen anytime soon.

Therefore Occams Razor - they still have no clue of the realities of the situation and don't really know what they are doing

Bit cynical · 03-08-2017 03:59PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/brexit-avoiding-hard-border-one-of-three-talks-priorities-for-eu-1.3086165

Nevertheless when it comes to actual work done, the border does not seem to be much of a priority.

LeinsterDub · 03-08-2017 04:06PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Nevertheless when it comes to actual work done, the border does not seem to be much of a priority.

Can't talk about the border till the UK says what sort of customs agreement it wants, agrees to the financial commitments and the faith of EU citizens

Mr Juncker identified three priorities for the first phase of the talks. First “and foremost” the two sides needed to deal with the situation of more than four million people – 1.2 million Britons living in the EU and about 3.2 million EU nationals living in the UK – whose lives would be directly impacted by Brexit.

The second priority was the need to agree that “all financial commitments given by the EU will be honoured by the UK” – a reference to the contentious divorce bill, estimated at up to £60 billion, that the EU argues must be paid by London before the UK leaves the bloc.

InTheTrees · 03-08-2017 04:32PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

No idea why that should be the case in regards to the Republic of Ireland.

A Northern Irish and Irish truck board a ferry and get to France how do the French know the Irish truck isn't full of Northern Irish goods? Smuggling would be rife.

The first smuggling route would certainly be from NI to the Republic and then take to goods from the NI truck into the Irish truck before boarding the ferry to France. Otherwise the French can tell by the number plate of the two trucks.

Well that's the point isn't it? Both trucks need to be checked in france, the one from NI and the one from ROI.

First Up · 03-08-2017 04:43PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well that's the point isn't it? Both trucks need to be checked in france, the one from NI and the one from ROI.

Unless the truck from NI has been checked at the border.

Bit cynical · 03-08-2017 04:47PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Can't talk about the border till the UK says what sort of customs agreement it wants, agrees to the financial commitments and the faith of EU citizens

+ the other things that are to be discussed. However none of that is consistent with the Irish border being "top of the agenda".

InTheTrees · 03-08-2017 04:53PM

First Up wrote: »

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well that's the point isn't it? Both trucks need to be checked in france, the one from NI and the one from ROI.

Unless the truck from NI has been checked at the border.

Well yes of course, but the question was about not checking at the border but leaving it up to the French.

First Up · 03-08-2017 05:35PM

InTheTrees wrote:

Well yes of course, but the question was about not checking at the border but leaving it up to the French.

I don't know what the final system will look like but you can be sure of two things;

1 - Goods entering the EU from the UK will be subject to whatever customs procedures arise from the terms of trade agreed between the UK and the EU. That will apply as much between NI and ROI as anywhere else.

2 - Ireland's membership of the Single Market will not be disadvantaged by having to undergo French customs in order to catch undocumented goods in transit from the UK.

Irish Border and Brexit

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