Irish Border and Brexit

sondagefaux

Bit cynical wrote: »

Nevertheless when it comes to actual work done, the border does not seem to be much of a priority.

How can the EU negotiate border arrangements with the UK when the UK hasn't yet decided what it wants?

Essentially, whatever arrangements there are on the Irish border will be because of the relationship the UK has with the EU.

If the UK decides to remain in the Single Market, and asks for a customs union agreement with the EU, the consequential arrangements necessary for the Irish border which suit this particular agreement (Customs Union & Single Market) can be arranged.

If the UK continues down the path of withdrawing from the customs union and the Single Market, the consequential arrangements necessary for the Irish border which suit this particular agreement (no Customs Union & no Single Market) can be arranged.

If the media reports of splits in the UK cabinet are any indication, the UK has yet to decide what kind of relationship it wants with the EU, despite the statements from Theresa May, who clearly now lacks the political authority to impose her views on her own cabinet.

LeinsterDub

Bit cynical wrote: »

+ the other things that are to be discussed. However none of that is consistent with the Irish border being "top of the agenda".

It's in the top three. In my opinion the EU expected citizens rights and outstanding debts to be the low hanging fruits not major sticking points and the border would be discussed fairly shortly after negotiations started

Capt'n Midnight

swampgas wrote: »

Actually, from a UK perspective, there is a way to keep the Irish border open: Ireland also leaves the EU (or leaves to the same extent that the UK does). There have been noises from some in the UK suggesting that it would be best for Ireland to follow the UK out.

So maybe when the Bristish Government says they want to keep the border open, that's what they have in mind. Nothing else makes any sense.

Irexit has practically no support down here.

Backing for Irish membership of the EU remains high at 88pc, according to the survey by the European Movement.


https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0521/876875-poll-brexit-europe/

When asked whether voters trusted parties to the upcoming Brexit negotiations to protect Irish interests: 75% of voters trust our own Government to do so; 72% trust the EU's negotiating team; while only 43% trust the British government.
...
On the whole, the survey found that voters see our future within the EU, with 71% agreeing that Ireland should stay in the EU, even if the outcome of the Brexit negotiations are bad for the country.

Voters also want to see a closer-knit Europe after Britain leaves the Union, with 67% of respondents saying that they want to see further EU integration once a Brexit deal has been agreed.

I'd expect the % trusting the UK govt to have dropped somewhat since the negotiations began.

swampgas

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Irexit has practically no support down here.

Backing for Irish membership of the EU remains high at 88pc, according to the survey by the European Movement.


https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0521/876875-poll-brexit-europe/

I'd expect the % trusting the UK govt to have dropped somewhat since the negotiations began.

Absolutely - but I wouldn't be surprised to find that the UK's approach to fixing the border problem will be to tell us to join them outside the EU. It's nuts to us, but to hard core Brexiteers it might make a weird sort of sense ...

paul2013

No offence to anyone on this discussion and please don't ban me from it.

1. Camera Surveillance will not work on the Irish border due to the fact that anyone can run through a field and evade the camera.

2. You have to live in Belfast for a year to understand why a "United Ireland" won't win through. It's a completely different Ireland in North, East and South Belfast as they have so called "Peace walls" between these communities. I have spoken to both sides of the wall and the would like to see their neighbour on the other side of the wall as they are picking up each others WI-FI signal believe it or not.

3. If Ireland eventually becomes 1 unit again, Where would we accommodate the NEW Ulster TD's (MP's) . Leinster House would be too small. I have spoken to DUP member and yes they have said in a personal capacity they would rather be in Dublin than travelling over to the UK where the House of Commons empties out when Northern Ireland is being discussed. They want Leinster House to be called "Ireland's House".

4. Ulster would want representation at the cabinet table and not be a minority when it comes to being an ALL IRELAND decision.

5. They want to host a GAA All Ireland Quarter final weather it be hurling or Gaelic football. It will unify Gaelic sports in an ALL Ireland capacity.
Also the IRFU would want to bring six nations games to Belfast as we play in United Ireland capacity when playing.

Capt'n Midnight

paul2013 wrote: »

1. Camera Surveillance will not work on the Irish border due to the fact that anyone can run through a field and evade the camera.

Have a read of this for delusions on an electronic border https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/08/02/sir-jeffreys-cunning-border-plan/

Drones, spray paint.

2. You have to live in Belfast for a year to understand why a "United Ireland" won't win through. It's a completely different Ireland in North, East and South Belfast as they have so called "Peace walls" between these communities. I have spoken to both sides of the wall and the would like to see their neighbour on the other side of the wall as they are picking up each others WI-FI signal believe it or not.

Parts of Dublin and Limerick are no go areas too. And besides what would actually make both sides in those areas happy ?

3. If Ireland eventually becomes 1 unit again, Where would we accommodate the NEW Ulster TD's (MP's) . Leinster House would be too small. I have spoken to DUP member and yes they have said in a personal capacity they would rather be in Dublin than travelling over to the UK where the House of Commons empties out when Northern Ireland is being discussed. They want Leinster House to be called "Ireland's House".

Damn, knew we should have taken College Green when we bailed out Bank Of Ireland. :pac:

By population it would mean 60 new TD's vs 90 MLA's + 17 MP's - and the experience of the peace process is that you need jobs for the boys so there'll have to be something for everyone

Perhaps 23 Senators , but the allocations would be interesting.

Or I could point out that the House of Commons only has 2/3rd's of the capacity it needs. Standing room only when busy.

Or make NI an autonomous region, with a separate national parliament like it currently is.


The name change is petty. Duke of Leinster, 1748 etc. "what colour should the bike shed be ?" - ignore until real progress elsewhere. Compared to ditching Article 2, 3 of the constitution it's not a biggie unless used as a point of conflict.

4. Ulster would want representation at the cabinet table and not be a minority when it comes to being an ALL IRELAND decision.

autonomous region OR the Unionists could join a coalition.

Someone can correct me but reluctance of southern parties to go into government with Sinn Fein means the Unionists could easily hold the balance of power for some time.

5. They want to host a GAA All Ireland Quarter final weather it be hurling or Gaelic football. It will unify Gaelic sports in an ALL Ireland capacity.
Also the IRFU would want to bring six nations games to Belfast as we play in United Ireland capacity when playing.

Bad news there, previous governments handed out cash for the refurbishment of Croke Park without getting any concessions.

joeysoap

paul2013 wrote: »

1. Camera Surveillance will not work on the Irish border due to the fact that anyone can run through a field and evade the camera.

Running through fields is not the problem, it's the number of unofficial crossing points that will spring up if there are serious delays on the main roads. Huge transporters won't be able to use them, but locals will.


2. You have to live in Belfast for a year to understand why a "United Ireland" won't win through. It's a completely different Ireland in North, East and South Belfast....


Agreed on that, it's a different world.

Sam Russell

oscarBravo wrote: »

3. If Ireland eventually becomes 1 unit again, Where would we accommodate the NEW Ulster TD's (MP's) . Leinster House would be too small. I have spoken to DUP member and yes they have said in a personal capacity they would rather be in Dublin than travelling over to the UK where the House of Commons empties out when Northern Ireland is being discussed. They want Leinster House to be called "Ireland's House".

.

Surely the obvious choice for the seat of Government in a united Ireland would be Stormont - a huge purpose built grandiose white elephant.

It has plenty of accommodation for the Dail and Senate and fit for a country like ours.

There you are - first sop to the North.

A Little Pony

Well little Leo visited gods own country today, he is a funny character. He talked about getting the executive up again.

Junkyard Tom

paul2013 wrote: »

Ulster would want representation at the cabinet table and not be a minority when it comes to being an ALL IRELAND decision.

Ulster the province or the six counties formerly known as NI? Do you mean Unionists?

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

gods own country today

It's not a country and it's remarkable that we have a FG Taoiseach facing up to the DUP and speaking for the all of the people in the northeast of Ireland.

If you'd have predicted that of a FG leader two years ago I would have laughed at the notion. The times they are a changin'.

A Little Pony

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

gods own country today

It's not a country and it's remarkable that we have a FG Taoiseach facing up to the DUP and speaking for the all of the people in the northeast of Ireland.

If you'd have predicted that of a FG leader two years ago I would have laughed at the notion. The times they are a changin'.

It's remarkable that an Irish politician disagrees on Brexit/DUP? No, no it's not.

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's remarkable that an Irish politician disagrees on Brexit/DUP? No, no it's not.

It's not just that he disagrees with the DUP/Brexit (who doesn't in Britain and Ireland and the six counties) it's remarkable that a FG leader is stepping up to the plate and speaking for the rights of the people in the northeast.

The Golden Miller

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's remarkable that an Irish politician disagrees on Brexit/DUP? No, no it's not.

You do realise FG have, to a degree, always sympathised with unionists since partition, yes? Yet you still try and sneer and portray them as the enemy? Is anyone born south of the border automatically considered an enemy trying to erode your culture? If southern unionists are publicly disagreeing you as opposed to trying to twist the situation to attack Sinn Fein, then things are bad

oscarBravo

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's not just that he disagrees with the DUP/Brexit (who doesn't in Britain and Ireland and the six counties) it's remarkable that a FG leader is stepping up to the plate and speaking for the rights of the people in the northeast.

Not that remarkable.



I know it's fashionable in some quarters to paint FG as imperialist lapdogs desperate to rejoin Her Majesty's glorious realm at the drop of a hat, but for those who don't do their thinking in caricatures, there's nothing surprising here.

Junkyard Tom

oscarBravo wrote: »

Not that remarkable.

It doesn't seem remarkable from a contemporary point of view but would have been viewed as fanciful a few years ago. Seriously, an Irish-Indian gay FG Taoiseach attending a Pride event and speaking up for the rights of people in the north? That would have sounded utterly ludicrous not so long ago.

I know it's fashionable in some quarters to paint FG as imperialist lapdogs desperate to rejoin Her Majesty's glorious realm at the drop of a hat, but for those who don't do their thinking in caricatures, there's nothing surprising here.

A caricature of a caricature?

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's remarkable that an Irish politician disagrees on Brexit/DUP? No, no it's not.

DUP snookered as they keeping doing to themselves and a new FG leader who, so far, is not doing a John Bruton.

The message is, do something to make northern Ireland a special case or Dublin will be behind any moves to change it's status, whatever that may be. As long as it eases the damage to the whole island.

johnnyskeleton

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You do realise FG have, to a degree, always sympathised with unionists since partition, yes? Yet you still try and sneer and portray them as the enemy? Is anyone born south of the border automatically considered an enemy trying to erode your culture? If southern unionists are publicly disagreeing you as opposed to trying to twist the situation to attack Sinn Fein, then things are bad

Mod note:

Banned for trolling for 24 hours.

FrancieBrady

I don't think this party are downplaying or trying to pull the wool over eyes, they really are living in fantasy land.

https://www.irishtimes.com/digital-subscriptions/ie

When some of us in studio pointed out to him that the only “practical solution” would mean that either those of us from the Republic present our passports at a checkpoint somewhere just south of Newry or he would face such checks when landing at a airport in London on his way to Westminster, Donaldson was having none of it, saying there would be “technological solutions” to the problems.
In the intervening 14 months there has been no advance in the DUP’s understanding of this issue. The party has not published a single substantial paragraph on how customs or immigration controls might work after the Brexit for which it voted. It has simply repeated a vague mantra about how it wants a soft Border and that technology will solve the problem.
Last weekend, in response to Varadkar’s comments, Donaldson tweeted a map of the toll booths on our motorways saying “a country that uses electronic toll tag systems on 11 of its main roads can’t claim there isn’t a technological solution to the Brexit border”. In response several tweeters, including Alliance leader Naomi Long, pointed out to Donaldson that while technology could monitor car number plates it couldn’t determine the immigration status of the occupants, or the nature or origin of goods being transported in the vehicle. Others delicately asked how even if such wonderfully fantastic devices existed they could possibly be placed on the 400-plus roads crossing the border. Undaunted Donaldson maintained “technological solutions” would be “easily achievable”.

paul2013

First of All, can everyone please look on Google Maps and go on the old N1 road out of Dundalk before the crossing the invisible line and look at the border huts.

1. Notice how well maintained they are?

2. Why weren't they knocked to the ground? After 1993

3. Until all of Belfast agrees on being United with the rest of Ireland. We will NEVER have a one country free of British rule.

4. Armagh, Derry , Down, Fermanagh, Tyrone want to be with Ireland but until Antrim agrees to be with a one Ireland. A United Ireland will never happen. As Belfast is where the media garner the support for these unity polls

A Little Pony

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

It's remarkable that an Irish politician disagrees on Brexit/DUP? No, no it's not.

It's not just that he disagrees with the DUP/Brexit (who doesn't in Britain and Ireland and the six counties) it's remarkable that a FG leader is stepping up to the plate and speaking for the rights of the people in the northeast.

Well most Protestants aren't listening to him or know who he is. I know who he is because I read and study politics and daily events.

A Little Pony

paul2013 wrote: »

First of All, can everyone please look on Google Maps and go on the old N1 road out of Dundalk before the crossing the invisible line and look at the border huts.

1. Notice how well maintained they are?

2. Why weren't they knocked to the ground? After 1993

3. Until all of Belfast agrees on being United with the rest of Ireland. We will NEVER have a one country free of British rule.

4. Armagh, Derry , Down, Fermanagh, Tyrone want to be with Ireland but until Antrim agrees to be with a one Ireland. A United Ireland will never happen. As Belfast is where the media garner the support for these unity polls

Makes no sense to me. Northern Ireland will remain within the United Kingdom because that is what the majority of the population want. Only way that changes is if it changes obviously. But one county has such power as you describe, I don't understand that point.

Alun

paul2013 wrote: »

First of All, can everyone please look on Google Maps and go on the old N1 road out of Dundalk before the crossing the invisible line and look at the border huts.

1. Notice how well maintained they are?

https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.1120375,-6.3589312,3a,75y,98.18h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPC6Q0xyWAYnXB7qvy1rmcQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

No, not really.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

Well most Protestants aren't listening to him or know who he is. I know who he is because I read and study politics and daily events.

I don't know where you're getting that from. I live in England and a lot of people are hearing about him. He's Ireland's first openly gay leader and he's being quite blunt about the DUP and Brexit, much to people's delight.

I find it hard to believe one religious denomination would have heard about him while others wouldn't have. It doesn't make sense.

Jim2007

I'm beginning to wonder if this border issue is going to be much bigger than we think if it's a hard BREXIT....

I was talking to a few retired U.K. expats last night who are starting to worry about how they will get to visit their grandchildren in the U.K., from their point of view:

Walking away without a deal would introduce issues in relation to air traffic and visa free travel for U.K. passport holders. It seems that most U.K. flights are governed by EU agreements, agreements the U.K. will no longer be a party to and this needs to be sorted out by autumn 2018 not 2019.

The U.K. is not a member of Schengen and it does not have a visa free agreement. It will no longer be a member of the EU, so they will no longer be able to avail of the EU/EEA/CH travel rules either. Is there another option or will they need to apply for Schengen visas like all other third countries?

Their plan is to fly to Dublin or Cork, then train and ferry, always assuming they have no passport issues doing that... fine but they will not be the only ones using Ireland as a gateway to the U.K. Hoards of U.K. citizens using Ireland as a gateway would put crazy pressure on Irish airports etc....

Jim2007

A Little Pony wrote: »

Well most Protestants aren't listening to him or know who he is. I know who he is because I read and study politics and daily events.

And what? You think unionists don't study politics and daily events, especially when it's about their country? Sounds like you need to get out more

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Well most Protestants aren't listening to him or know who he is. I know who he is because I read and study politics and daily events.

I love this fall back when under pressure.

'We have our fingers in our ears and we are not listening'.

How many DUP and UUP TUP politicians immediately jumped to rant when Leo spoke?

paul2013

A Little Pony wrote: »

Makes no sense to me. Northern Ireland will remain within the United Kingdom because that is what the majority of the population want. Only way that changes is if it changes obviously. But one county has such power as you describe, I don't understand that point.

What I'm saying is that Antrim is where all the prediction polls of a United Ireland are carried out by polling companies. As I lived in all of the 6 counties before returning to the South of Ireland and no one ever came knocking on my door at the weekend while I lived in Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh or Tyrone. It was every weekend in Antrim they came knocking as this is where most Unionists live and yes I was living in the middle of the unionist community who predominantly supported the Union while I supported the Irish.

The Unionists knew I supported the Irish and we got along and I shook hands with them and my front door was not blown up for supporting who I supported.

I brought the unionists to Irish people in Belfast and we all had drinks at the pub and the next day do you know what the unionists said to me , "Thank you" you Irish are very funny and we wish these walls would come down. We can get along with each other if if the walls were removed.

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

Well most Protestants aren't listening to him or know who he is.

Wishing it was true doesn't make it so. I'd say the vast majority of Protestants, you know, the ones who have TV's and radios, would be well aware of Varadkar and what he's been saying.

murphaph

Yeah let's not play silly beggars. Very few people in Northern Ireland do not know who the Taoiseach of the day is.

It's kind of childish to pretend otherwise.