Paternity Leave???

matjay · 16-01-2017 9:10pm #1

Hi

I have been looking at applying for Paternity Leave as my wife is due this week? I have looked at the financial side of it and it just isn't logical to take if your employer does not make up the difference!

I was thinking of applying and taking the time in hours as the 230 a week would break down as.

Any thoughts on if this would be OK to do or am I asking for trouble??

Big Bag of Chips · 17-01-2017 10:33am

What is your company's policy on it? I don't know a whole lot about paternity leave, but I'm not sure if it can be taken in blocks of hours rather than days/weeks. I know you can't take maternity leave in hours, for example.

Your best bet is to speak to your HR dept. Do you know that your company doesn't make up the difference?

Hoboo · 17-01-2017 10:44am

matjay wrote: »

Hi

I have been looking at applying for Paternity Leave as my wife is due this week? I have looked at the financial side of it and it just isn't logical to take if your employer does not make up the difference!

I was thinking of applying and taking the time in hours as the 230 a week would break down as.

Any thoughts on if this would be OK to do or am I asking for trouble??

Must be taken in 2 week block. Payment of €460 comes from social welfare, not your employer, so you'd be breaking SW rules. Getting paid the full allowance when you're not taking the full two weeks.

Down to your employer, if you asked me I'd say no. SW and revenue are more linked than ever.

Ask if they'll make up the difference? Check your contract, might be covered if new since August.

Need to give 4 weeks notice for leave btw, but can be taken anytime in first 28 weeks.

catrionanic · 20-01-2017 10:07am

Do you have to take the two weeks consecutively? Like could you take a week, go back for another few weeks, and then take the second week?

That's what we were hoping to do.

infogiver · 20-01-2017 10:10am

catrionanic wrote: »

Do you have to take the two weeks consecutively? Like could you take a week, go back for another few weeks, and then take the second week?

That's what we were hoping to do.

No you can't

catrionanic · 20-01-2017 10:11am

infogiver wrote: »

No you can't

Crap. I was due yesterday and this had been our plan.

Do you have a link to revenue or whatever to clarify this?

heroics · 20-01-2017 10:15am

catrionanic wrote: »

Crap. I was due yesterday and this had been our plan.

Do you have a link to revenue or whatever to clarify this?

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Paternity-Benefit-FAQ.aspx#11

Big Bag of Chips · 20-01-2017 10:17am

Employers are usually flexible in that you book the leave for around a date, but they know you might not take the exact dates. I don't mean to be funny, but this is 2 weeks off that you wouldn't have had previously or if you had your baby before paternity leave came in. So you make do with taking the block of two weeks after the baby arrives (maybe even after you get home from hospital) or you don't take it all if it doesn't suit you, work doesn't make up the wages, can't afford it, or whatever. You could use annual leave days instead.

As far as I know it's not compulsory.

Edit: just rereading your post catriona, do you mean you were due yesterday, the baby didn't arrive, but your husband is already started paternity leave?

Collyb101 · 26-07-2017 8:33am

PATERNITY LEAVE IS A LOAD OF CRAP
I recently took Paternity leave for two weeks. I availed of the two weeks social welfare money thinking this would go little way to retrieving the two weeks pay I would loose from my time off. I WAS WRONG
Well unknown to me at the time, my tax credits have been amended to retrieve those payments from me. I rang the revenue and they said that is normal. There are no special circumstances here, I have been in employment for many years without a break.
So my Fiance takes Maternity leave and even avails of tax breaks in this 6/7 months period but I (Men) get two weeks off and if they take this €460 the revenue will recover this via reducing tax credits until the end of that financial year.
Does this bother any other fathers??????????????????

heroics · 26-07-2017 8:56am

I think you have this misunderstood. Your paternity leave is taxable at the same rate as your normal pay. They don't take extra tax to recover the full cost of your leave. This is the same as for maternity leave btw

Collyb101 wrote: »

PATERNITY LEAVE IS A LOAD OF CRAP
I recently took Paternity leave for two weeks. I availed of the two weeks social welfare money thinking this would go little way to retrieving the two weeks pay I would loose from my time off. I WAS WRONG
Well unknown to me at the time, my tax credits have been amended to retrieve those payments from me. I rang the revenue and they said that is normal. There are no special circumstances here, I have been in employment for many years without a break.
So my Fiance takes Maternity leave and even avails of tax breaks in this 6/7 months period but I (Men) get two weeks off and if they take this €460 the revenue will recover this via reducing tax credits until the end of that financial year.
Does this bother any other fathers??????????????????

seamus · 26-07-2017 9:39am

heroics wrote: »

I think you have this misunderstood. Your paternity leave is taxable at the same rate as your normal pay. They don't take extra tax to recover the full cost of your leave. This is the same as for maternity leave btw

Correct.

However, what Revenue do...uh...do is reissue your tax credits so that you're taxed on a month-by-month basis rather than an accumulating basis.

The aim here is to avoid someone receiving a massive tax refund during their paternity leave and then having to pay it all back again when they return to work. However if someone is earning a relatively low wage or is paid on an hours-worked basis, then the week 1/month 1 setup can cause them to be taxed more highly than if they were on the normal cumulative basis.

What Collyb101 should do is get back onto Revenue and tell them to reissue your tax credits certificate on a cumulative basis. Your pay will go haywire for a few weeks but will settle down again.

What I think is funny is that the creation of paternity leave has also created this sudden realisation that €230 a week is absolute pittance in real terms. And for the last decade, women have had to live on this for the 6 months while they're off work.

The government will really have to re-examine the situation and look at a half-and-half scheme with employers where the government provides €500 a week and the employers are obliged to top it off in exchange for no employers' PRSI or something. Otherwise paternity leave is going to go massively underused.

Collyb101 · 26-07-2017 11:13am

heroics wrote: »

I think you have this misunderstood. Your paternity leave is taxable at the same rate as your normal pay. They don't take extra tax to recover the full cost of your leave. This is the same as for maternity leave btw

I know i'm not 100% getting this but:
-My amended tax credits mean I am €40 less off a month for the remainder of the year (since March). If this was just tax on the actual Social Welfare Payment (of €460), that is €400 tax on a €460 payment.
-Obviously my pay for the year would be slightly different as I would have to subtract two weeks total from my annual salary but again I thought that would have been evident on that payment period (possibly not though).

- Personally I dont think the €460 should be taxable anyway!

shesty · 26-07-2017 4:12pm

I don't mean to be rude but this is what women have to put up with it.I have taken two maternity leaves in the last 3 years, including unpaid leave, and I couldn't even begin to describe to you what it has done to my pay and tax.....I think they have issued me four tax certs to date this year, and I claimed back money on my P21.

And maternity pay is taxable too.

I am in agreement with the essence of what you're saying but to be frank, until it hits more men in the pocket, it's unlikely anyone is going to do anything about it.It hasn't bothered them for years on the maternity side anyway.

pwurple · 26-07-2017 9:03pm

Yes, but it bothered me a shedload more when it was maternity leave tbh.

It is a load of crap. Welcome to our world.

fits · 26-07-2017 9:21pm

I'd love to even be getting 230 euro. Did the decent thing and emigrated to work rather than be a burden on the state and am entitled to nothing. My husband took paternity leave. We were glad of it with twins.

Neyite · 31-07-2017 12:22pm

pwurple wrote: »

Yes, but it bothered me a shedload more when it was maternity leave tbh.

It is a load of crap. Welcome to our world.

And it's assumed we are sitting around on our arses peeling grapes and watching Jeremy Kyle for the 26 weeks too. :P

I'm all for paternity benefits and leave and would love a system similar to Sweden where maternity leave can be shared by mum and dad as best suits their circumstances.

pwurple · 01-08-2017 1:09am

Neyite wrote: »

And it's assumed we are sitting around on our arses peeling grapes and watching Jeremy Kyle for the 26 weeks too. :P

I'm all for paternity benefits and leave and would love a system similar to Sweden where maternity leave can be shared by mum and dad as best suits their circumstances.

God yes. It crippled us when we couldn't do that. I cannot figure out what difference it makes to the govt to restrict which spouse goes to work. The more we earn the more tax we pay, right?

I am working in a traditionally male industry, and my husband in a traditionally female one. Sweet F.A. for me in terms of maternity benefit, but his company did full pay and all sorts of flexi time going back etc, if only he was a woman. I was like... hey maybe we will investigate doing the first three months, and we swap and you take the rest while the baby is supersmall.

He phoned the social welfare to ask about swapping it over. There is only one situation where he could claim it and I could go back to work.

Here is the exact scenario: I'd have to be dead.

Arg. Anyway, eventually, we found a creche that could take the baby from 5 months, so that totally sucked, but what choice did we have. Stop paying the mortgage?

Even better was for my other daughter, when 2 months from my due date they slashed maternity benefit, made it taxable, and cut child benefit as well. Arseholes on the radio then, "well don't have a baby if you can't afford it". Cheers, I'll just abort this 7 month pregnancy shall I?

I love the way every single childcare incentive then since has also missed us. ECCE second year! Oh, We don't qualify. Affordable childcare, too old by a hair, and also, cos we work, don't qualify for the means tested one after that.

On and on it goes.

radharc · 07-08-2017 5:31pm

What happens if you just take 2 weeks annual leave, can you claim the Paternity Benefit on top?

shesty · 07-08-2017 9:02pm

I doubt it.If its anything like mat benefit, you have to get your company and possibly a doctor (have to for mat leave, unsure about pat leave) to sign the form to apply for paternity benefit.So unless your company were willing to lie for you, then I don't think you would be able to.

tickingclock · 07-08-2017 9:17pm

radharc wrote: »

What happens if you just take 2 weeks annual leave, can you claim the Paternity Benefit on top?

No way is this an option. It is all done on an officially just like maternity leave.

seamus · 10-08-2017 11:45am

radharc wrote: »

What happens if you just take 2 weeks annual leave, can you claim the Paternity Benefit on top?

Nope. In order to apply for paternity benefit, your employer has to certify that they are giving you paternity leave.

If they were to be found letting you take annual leave instead, they would be in deep trouble.

radharc · 10-08-2017 8:27pm

seamus wrote: »

Nope. In order to apply for paternity benefit, your employer has to certify that they are giving you paternity leave.

If they were to be found letting you take annual leave instead, they would be in deep trouble.

Fair enough although it doesn't make any sense. You could receive 2 weeks paid paternity leave and there wouldn't be a problem but 2 weeks paid annual leave is a no no?

Big Bag of Chips · 10-08-2017 8:37pm

You can take paid annual leave instead of/as well as paternity leave if you like. But it'd be annual leave, not paternity leave. Same way a mother can take annual leave as well as maternity leave.

Paternity leave is a separate thing altogether and it doesn't affect your annual leave entitlement or pay.

shesty · 11-08-2017 8:47am

Both our kids were born before paternity leave was introduced.My husband took time out of his annual leave for both.You can take annual leave, nothing stopping you.But you can also take paternity leave which means you don't need to use up your annual leave.Trade off being that you could be down money if your employer doesn't top up the social welfare payment so you get full pay.
It's simply an option to encourage more dads to take time off when their child is bron, that's all.That said, most men I know have taken a couple of weeks of annual leave, but I know not everyone is in a position to do that.
And of course the argument then arises of 230eur week not being enough to make it worth a man's while to take that time, but see my point above re:it hasn't bothered too many people up to now that its all that mothers were being paid.

seamus · 11-08-2017 9:11am

radharc wrote: »

Fair enough although it doesn't make any sense. You could receive 2 weeks paid paternity leave and there wouldn't be a problem but 2 weeks paid annual leave is a no no?

There are two aspects here;

The first is that as others mention, paternity leave entitlements are on top of annual leave. So even after you've taken the 2 paternity weeks, you still have 4 weeks annual leave left to take.

The second is its statutory nature. An employer is free to choose when you take annual leave. If you request it on a certain date, they can refuse it.
They cannot refuse paternity leave. So long as you've given a minimum 4 weeks notice, your employer cannot refuse your paternity leave.

You are free to take two weeks paid annual leave if you wish, you just can't take it and claim paternity benefit at the same time. It's the same as claiming illness benefit while on holidays.

heroics · 11-08-2017 11:27am

shesty wrote: »

And of course the argument then arises of 230eur week not being enough to make it worth a man's while to take that time, but see my point above re:it hasn't bothered too many people up to now that its all that mothers were being paid.

I think the problem is if both parents salary is dropping to 230 for the 2 weeks not that it is not worth the mans while to take it. We were lucky that both our employers top up our wages but if they didn't we could take the hit of one earner getting 230 pw but not both of us.

pwurple · 11-08-2017 3:32pm

heroics wrote: »

I think the problem is if both parents salary is dropping to 230 for the 2 weeks not that it is not worth the mans while to take it. We were lucky that both our employers top up our wages but if they didn't we could take the hit of one earner getting 230 pw but not both of us.

Or the problem arises if the woman is employed and the man is not.
Or either of them are self employed.
Or the woman is paid more than the man, is the main earner....

It's a complete friggen joke. Just make it simply transferrable and stop assuming every goddamned family is a cookie cutter version of Mammy in the kitchen and Daddy in an office. What difference can it possibly make except more tax intake and simpler less frustrating lives for the rest of us.

I swear to god, it completely wrecks my head. They do this whole "Women in maths and engineering" push in school, and when us girls think, yeah, I like maths, let's do it. We go ahead and break our balls trudging up the hill to the boys school in the rain to do higher maths and eng and the subjects our schools don't cover, cos ya know... we're girls. And then break our hearts in college being one of 40 guys in an engineering class getting our degrees while being constantly patronized by everyone in sight. And then sweat our way through industry, proving ourselves to be as good, or in most cases having to be BETTER than any of our peers.... and eventually, eventually, eventually when we are now in a senior engineering position and are the breadwinners for our families. Yeah, NOW is the moment the government phunts us back to the kitchen sink, and not even permit our spouse to care for their own children.

What the actual fck is up with that policy.

Bobeagleburger · 11-08-2017 3:38pm

heroics wrote: »

I think the problem is if both parents salary is dropping to 230 for the 2 weeks not that it is not worth the mans while to take it. We were lucky that both our employers top up our wages but if they didn't we could take the hit of one earner getting 230 pw but not both of us.

In fairness, parents know that a child is arriving so can save to make up the shortfall.

Let's say man X makes 530 a week after tax. That's 300 a week shortfall times 2 weeks = €600.

I'd say most parents know from week 10 (just for calculations) that baby is arriving.

600/30 = €20 a week to save to make up shortfall.

The money excuse doesn't cut it in the vast vast majority of cases.

Neyite · 11-08-2017 3:48pm

RoboKlopp wrote: »

The money excuse doesn't cut it in the vast vast majority of cases.

It does if you are barely making ends meet on two small salaries and don't have any extra spends left over. Lots of couples were juggling bills because they didn't have enough income to pay them as they arrived. So a drop to statutory maternity pay means they had to scrimp and save even more.

The paternity benefit might have been just beyond their very limits.

pwurple · 11-08-2017 3:58pm

RoboKlopp wrote: »

In fairness, parents know that a child is arriving so can save to make up the shortfall.

Let's say man X makes 530 a week after tax. That's 300 a week shortfall times 2 weeks = €600.

I'd say most parents know from week 10 (just for calculations) that baby is arriving.

600/30 = €20 a week to save to make up shortfall.

The money excuse doesn't cut it in the vast vast majority of cases.

*KLAXON* Sums fail. The 230 is taxed at the higher rate too buddy. Try again.

And excuse me now, it most CERTAINLY cuts it.

Assuming, yes assuming you are in the enviable position of not being part of the squeezed middle, and you can save something in the first place without being harassed by a bank or a landlord, assuming that is the case.

Maternity and paternity benefit is changed in almost every budget. It's a constantly moving target. Will it be taxed, not taxed, nobody knows! How very exciting.

Babies take 40 weeks to gestate, and even if everything goes swimmingly during that time, and you don't end up having to take 6 months off for pelvic separation, or puking so hard you lose the lining of your esophagus, or blood pressure so low, or so high you pass out when you stand up... assuming all that common stuff doesn't happen and you don't end up on sickness benefit for most of it.... even then, it's not completely out of the sphere of reason that SOMETHING changes during that time. Work changes, it's taken over by another company, your office moves 40km off in another direction, a big client decides not to pay you, one of our parent's needs a carer or a nursing home, your car keels over, your dog needs 1000 of surgery, all 7 of your brothers decide to get married that year in different exotic locations. Life happens.

Also, I don't know if you know any biology, but pregnancy isn't quite as simple as just rocking up swinging around wildly without a condom on, and bingo you're up the duff that day. It can be accidental, unplanned, or the opposite, planned for years and never happen at all, or take 20,000 euro worth of IVF treatment before it happens.

Sure, some people can have a swimmingly simple time of it, but a hell of a lot of people in the real world are getting tossed about in a financial storm.

So yeah, it cuts it.

xalot · 17-08-2017 1:10pm

Slightly off topic but I was wondering about this, my husband works in a company that top up maternity pay (to full pay) but not paternity pay at all. Surely this is discrimination?

He was the first person to take leave once the paternity leave option came out so maybe they were finding their feet, but it's a massive organisation, I would have thought they were leaving themselves open for a discrimination suit?

Just curious if anyone else had come across a similar situation?

Paternity Leave???

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