Mayo GAA Discussion - Part 3

PARlance · 30-07-2017 11:00PM

A small point but I think it goes to show that we lack that killer edge... or play "not to lose" as opposed to win. For Cillian's free, there wasn't a sinner in at the square. There was a good chance that ball was going to drop short. It ended up with a very easy catch for the keeper.

That is just not cute or aggressive enough. You have to gamble in that situation imo. It looked as if we were more concerned about keeping people back, keeping our shape, if he missed.

seligehgit · 30-07-2017 11:03PM

Very clever by the Roscommon management to switch Enda Smith into full forward at half time to nullify the Lee Keegan but surely we have a defender like Brendan Harrison who is capable of switching onto Smith and freeing up the marauding Keegan.Kind of shows a lack of faith in the abilities of our backs to do a job and we lost so much going forward with Keegan's repositioning.

Similar to the loss we suffer when he's reducing to man marking Diarmuid Connolly.

PARlance · 30-07-2017 11:07PM

finisklin wrote: »

Drake coming on for Diarmuid was a mystery - I guess he is viewed a steady Eddie. What about Regan and Boland - considered busted flushes by Rochford?

Is Conor O'Shea injured? He may have helped somewhat today.

I think those 2 points are closely related. Conor had a shoulder injury before the Derry game and not sure if he's back fit yet. Drake seems to have assumed his role as "late sub who'll run around the middle third a lot", a type of player that Rochford likes to bring on and I can see the merit in it.

I can't remember exactly but I think Drake came on for Doherty. Rochford would never put in a Regan or Boland in that role at that stage.

PARlance · 30-07-2017 11:11PM

seligehgit wrote: »

Very clever by the Roscommon management to switch Enda Smith into full forward at half time to nullify the Lee Keegan but surely we have a defender like Brendan Harrison who is capable of switching onto Smith and freeing up the marauding Keegan.Kind of shows a lack of faith in the abilities of our backs to do a job and we lost so much going forward with Keegan's repositioning.

Similar to the loss we suffer when he's reducing to man marking Diarmuid Connolly.

At least he can get forward when on Connolly. I think the world knew what McStay was doing. I actually think Keegan took it upon himself to move up the field when we went behind. It was incredibly negative to leave him in the FB line for so long.

I got a few funny looks when I said Keegan should be tried in the HF line before the league started... he's more important to us attacking than he is defending.

naughto · 30-07-2017 11:29PM

All the post are leading to one man or three men and it's management that has being or problem has being for yrs only way Rochford keeps his job is by winning Sam.
Against cork caf was left on today sos far to long there needs to be more thought put in to the subs.
Ivan see us getting over the rossies but after that it's curtains for a lot of this team

corny · 30-07-2017 11:45PM

PARlance wrote: »

I got a few funny looks when I said Keegan should be tried in the HF line before the league started... he's more important to us attacking than he is defending.

Apparently i was banging on about this last year...so Stoner says anyway.

Its a no brainer for me. Its a tragic waste of a great attacking player asking to stand beside a man. And for all the bluster about his genius as a man marker he's not a particularly tight or tenacious defender. Won't be shown up by any attacker but you have others who are equally capable. You've no one to attack onto the ball or put it over the bar like him though thats for sure.

Today he left Smith for huge chunks of the first half but inexplicably wouldn't leave his side in the second half. Victim of the hype of the marking jobs he apparently did on Cavanagh and Connolly last year. Its a complete waste of his talents imo.

km79 · 30-07-2017 11:49PM

Parsons importance was shown today
He offers mobility that none of the other midfielders can
Seamie is not playing well

charlie14 · 30-07-2017 11:54PM

corny wrote: »

Apparently i was banging on about this last year...so Stoner says anyway.

Its a no brainer for me. Its a tragic waste of a great attacking player asking to stand beside a man. And for all the bluster about his genius as a man marker he's not a particularly tight or tenacious defender. Won't be shown up by any attacker but you have others who are equally capable. You've no one to attack onto the ball or put it over the bar like him though thats for sure.

Today he left Smith for huge chunks of the first half but inexplicably wouldn't leave his side in the second half. Victim of the hype of the marking jobs he apparently did on Cavanagh and Connolly last year. Its a complete waste of his talents imo.

It`s a bit of a two edged sword though imo.

Forwards by their nature are not great tacklers, so when marking a forward when Keegan, wins a ball he can simply go.
Starting as a forward he would have an assigned back marking him.

corny · 31-07-2017 12:12AM

charlie14 wrote: »

It`s a bit of a two edged sword though imo.

Forwards by their nature are not great tacklers, so when marking a forward when Keegan, wins a ball he can simply go.
Starting as a forward he would have an assigned back marking him.

Not really. The likes of Ryan McHugh and Peter Harte play as supplementary defenders but their real value to the team is in driving forward. McMahon does it for Dublin to a degree. Others fill the spaces.

Stoner · 31-07-2017 12:22AM

charlie14 wrote:

Forwards by their nature are not great tacklers, so when marking a forward when Keegan, wins a ball he can simply go. Starting as a forward he would have an assigned back marking him.

True but feck it there's about 1 or 2 lads in that Mayo forward line that you'd run through hot coals on the way to goal before attempting to slip them in for a goal.

Keegan knows how to score, there's 2 or 3 new defenders in the Mayo squad and zero forwards.
For example McLoughlan was a sweeper last year and not bad either by the end of the session, he's a passenger at half-forward imo.

Give it a lash change it up. Try something different at no 3 and give Keegan a shot at being a legend.

And Corny dont get to cocky, you'd still start Ger Black Card Brennan at 6 for us if you had the chance!
That was your call though.

irishgeo · 31-07-2017 08:56AM

10 wides in the second half cost us the game.

Im afraid Andy is done. He is too easily dispossessed in a tackle and has a habit of running into defenders now he isn't fast enough to get around them. I would start Loftus and then bring andy on to run against a tired defence.

Secondly the ref was terrible and no way was the ball picked up off the ground for the roscommon free at the end of time.

Some of the subs were a mystery.

Great atmosphere though compared to the snorefest of the game before that. I honestly don't think the galway fans thought they could win despite kerry being bad.

km79 · 31-07-2017 09:11AM

Why didn't Rochford switch someone else onto Smith after mcstay moved him into FF line to nullify keeegan ?

We seen indisputable evidence that Keegan is wasted back there and was wasted last September

blinding · 31-07-2017 09:47AM

km79 wrote: »

Why didn't Rochford switch someone else onto Smith after mcstay moved him into FF line to nullify keeegan ?

We seen indisputable evidence that Keegan is wasted back there and was wasted last September

Let Lee

Run Free

If it can be

km79 · 31-07-2017 09:51AM

blinding wrote: »

Let Lee

Run Free

If it can be

We will see

Squatman · 31-07-2017 09:54AM

finisklin wrote: »

I think Mayo will learn more from today. Roscommon need to score goals to win. Mayo need to cut off supply line next week - the defensive line down the middle needs to be shored and bulked up. Hopefully Parsons will be full fit.

Boyler tired and is not the player he was. Perhaps too early for Coen to start.

Drake coming on for Diarmuid was a mystery - I guess he is viewed a steady Eddie. What about Regan and Boland - considered busted flushes by Rochford?

Is Conor O'Shea injured? He may have helped somewhat today.

.

Evan Regan cost us the loss to Galway with his incessant wides and poor shot selection. he has maintained that form in his next game. HAvent seen enough of boland to comment - had some good form in the league, but mostly hot and cold. Conor O'shea is not a valuable addition to the team. He seemed lazy in the league this year.

flasher0030 · 31-07-2017 09:57AM

seligehgit wrote: »

Very clever by the Roscommon management to switch Enda Smith into full forward at half time to nullify the Lee Keegan but surely we have a defender like Brendan Harrison who is capable of switching onto Smith and freeing up the marauding Keegan.Kind of shows a lack of faith in the abilities of our backs to do a job and we lost so much going forward with Keegan's repositioning.

Similar to the loss we suffer when he's reducing to man marking Diarmuid Connolly.

Harrison had his hands full marking D. Murtagh yesterday. And did a great job on him IMO. I would have put Chris Barrett back on Smith. Let Keegan then make a couple of runs forward. At least put some defensive fear in to Ros. The way it was – they were able to play balls towards the corner to Smith. Even if it came to nothing, they knew that Keegan was back on his own full back line, thus reducing the chances of a dangerous counter attack. Higgins going forward, and Durkan and Boyle, are dynamic but it often ends in nothing – stopping at the opposition 45 or taking a shot which has a 50:50 chance. But Keegan is different. He is accurate from distance and is more ambitious. None of the other 3 would have gone for goal yesterday like Keegan did.
I don’t agree that putting him in the half-forwards will reap the same benefits. As was said, there’s a whole pile of difference in having a half-forward “marking” you, than having a tenacious back holding your jersey. The half forward is under pressure to score or at least set up scores. The back that would be marking Keegan would have such distractions. His only job is to stop Keegan getting the ball. If he does that, his job is successfully done.

Shurimgreat · 31-07-2017 10:11AM

Mayo management of the last few years including going back to Horans time have been too easily out-thought in the tactics department.

I'd love to see McStay/McHale managing Mayo. Its a great tragedy that they may never get the role because of the immaturity of some of the players and a reluctance of the county board. You don't win AIs by continually shooting yourself in the foot like Mayo usually do.

PARlance · 31-07-2017 10:14AM

flasher0030 wrote: »

Harrison had his hands full marking D. Murtagh yesterday. And did a great job on him IMO. I would have put Chris Barrett back on Smith. Let Keegan then make a couple of runs forward. At least put some defensive fear in to Ros. The way it was – they were able to play balls towards the corner to Smith. Even if it came to nothing, they knew that Keegan was back on his own full back line, thus reducing the chances of a dangerous counter attack. Higgins going forward, and Durkan and Boyle, are dynamic but it often ends in nothing – stopping at the opposition 45 or taking a shot which has a 50:50 chance. But Keegan is different. He is accurate from distance and is more ambitious. None of the other 3 would have gone for goal yesterday like Keegan did.
I don’t agree that putting him in the half-forwards will reap the same benefits. As was said, there’s a whole pile of difference in having a half-forward “marking” you, than having a tenacious back holding your jersey. The half forward is under pressure to score or at least set up scores. The back that would be marking Keegan would have such distractions. His only job is to stop Keegan getting the ball. If he does that, his job is successfully done.

My point was more that he should be seen as a key attacking player rather than necessarily giving him a number 10 or 12. Someone to run with intent and help solve the problems we have with transition at times.

HB's and HF's generally operate in the same third, they all get forward and they all defend. I think it's so fluid in there that numbers rarely matter.

Tbh, he does enough attacking from the HB line. I just wouldn't be giving him an overly defensive role and I wouldn't have him near the FB line. We've no shortage of defensive players to cover.

yop · 31-07-2017 10:29AM

We still survive, we've had the headstone carved for us in a lot of matches and not just this year. Hard to figure out if we should be relived we came from 7 down with a shell shock of a start or if we should be livid with the misses, maybe a bit of both.

First off, what a brilliant atmosphere to see the 3 Connacht teams up there, 65k people of all ages, we can count ourselves lucky that these lads have brought us to Croker for some many years over the last 3 decades, but for some of the Rossies and to a lesser extent the Galway lads these are rare enough occasions.

Not much I can say to add to what has been said, I called the bloody draw, I thought there was going to be ET, another replay is a little frustrating.
Keegan can really be the only Mayo man to stand out, the lack of performance from so many of the others is odd but then again can they all really not turn up again this day week?
Defence is playing a man down now each game, not one single time did Caff get ahead of a touch of the ball, he shipped 1-5 off his man yet he survived the full 70+ minutes. It really is down right frustrating that he isn't going to be getting any better and that leaving his there will ruin his confidence.

Clarke was poor enough on the kickouts, 2 of them cost us points. Why Boyle was replaced is head scratching. Midfield was way off the pace, AOS reverted to his poor performances, but he looks tired and rightly so, he was once again battered and hammered and was taken high on 2 occasions.
Our front 6 seem to have lost all idea of shot selection, really don't know what was going on with COC and Andy, could use the excuse wet ball, bad conditions etc, but thats not good enough.

Ref was down right as bad as I have seen, at least one blantant black, AOS taken neck high and that wasn't even a booking! Higgins a lucky boy again, could have been a red or a black.

Sideline have truly lost all idea of the right changes and tactics, Rochford looks like a rabbit in headlights and unless he wins the AI will be gone I'd say, last years AI keeper change will haunt him to the end of days. Bringing on 2 backs into the forwards, what does that do for Dillion, Kirby, Regan?

BUT, we are still there, still coming back from the brink of defeat, still not winning the games when they are been there to be won. Will the legs hold out, Harrison cramping wasn't great to see, a young player like him, that said, he was the only one.

Lets see what happens.

Fr Tod Umptious · 31-07-2017 10:31AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Mayo management of the last few years including going back to Horans time have been too easily out-thought in the tactics department.

I'd love to see McStay/McHale managing Mayo. Its a great tragedy that they may never get the role because of the immaturity of some of the players and a reluctance of the county board. You don't win AIs by continually shooting yourself in the foot like Mayo usually do.

I disagree

I'd argue that they have held Roscommon back in the last few years rather than advance them.

They took over a good team from Evans.

They should have won Connacht last year and this year be building on it.

This year they did better v Galway but the way Galway are carrying on, as we saw yesterday, I'm not sure how much that counts for.

Yesterday Roscommon went all out in the early minutes, got their goals but then ran out of ideas. The two very long range free kicks that were missed showed that.
Fair enough they improved in the second half but Mayo were there for the taking.

They have a great opportunity next week, let's see how smart they are.

Mayo are frigged, that's it. They are out of gas.

Note: McStay I don't mind, but because he needs to other guy to follow him that's were the problem is.

blinding · 31-07-2017 10:45AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

[/b]

I disagree

I'd argue that they have held Roscommon back in the last few years rather than advance them.

They took over a good team from Evans.

They should have won Connacht last year and this year be building on it.

This year they did better v Galway but the way Galway are carrying on, as we saw yesterday, I'm not sure how much that counts for.

Yesterday Roscommon went all out in the early minutes, got their goals but then ran out of ideas. The two very long range free kicks that were missed showed that.
Fair enough they improved in the second half but Mayo were there for the taking.

They have a great opportunity next week, let's see how smart they are.

Mayo are frigged, that's it. They are out of gas.

Note: McStay I don't mind, but because he needs to other guy to follow him that's were the problem is.

McHale is a bit of a Clown alright......McStay would probably need to lose that big fella if he ever wants to manage Mayo...after all those are the kind of big decisions you have to make to be a county manager of the likes of Mayo.....

flasher0030 · 31-07-2017 10:48AM

yop wrote: »

We still survive, we've had the headstone carved for us in a lot of matches and not just this year. Hard to figure out if we should be relived we came from 7 down with a shell shock of a start or if we should be livid with the misses, maybe a bit of both.

First off, what a brilliant atmosphere to see the 3 Connacht teams up there, 65k people of all ages, we can count ourselves lucky that these lads have brought us to Croker for some many years over the last 3 decades, but for some of the Rossies and to a lesser extent the Galway lads these are rare enough occasions.

Not much I can say to add to what has been said, I called the bloody draw, I thought there was going to be ET, another replay is a little frustrating.
Keegan can really be the only Mayo man to stand out, the lack of performance from so many of the others is odd but then again can they all really not turn up again this day week?
Defence is playing a man down now each game, not one single time did Caff get ahead of a touch of the ball, he shipped 1-5 off his man yet he survived the full 70+ minutes. It really is down right frustrating that he isn't going to be getting any better and that leaving his there will ruin his confidence.

Clarke was poor enough on the kickouts, 2 of them cost us points. Why Boyle was replaced is head scratching. Midfield was way off the pace, AOS reverted to his poor performances, but he looks tired and rightly so, he was once again battered and hammered and was taken high on 2 occasions.
Our front 6 seem to have lost all idea of shot selection, really don't know what was going on with COC and Andy, could use the excuse wet ball, bad conditions etc, but thats not good enough.

Ref was down right as bad as I have seen, at least one blantant black, AOS taken neck high and that wasn't even a booking! Higgins a lucky boy again, could have been a red or a black.

Sideline have truly lost all idea of the right changes and tactics, Rochford looks like a rabbit in headlights and unless he wins the AI will be gone I'd say, last years AI keeper change will haunt him to the end of days. Bringing on 2 backs into the forwards, what does that do for Dillion, Kirby, Regan?

BUT, we are still there, still coming back from the brink of defeat, still not winning the games when they are been there to be won. Will the legs hold out, Harrison cramping wasn't great to see, a young player like him, that said, he was the only one.

Lets see what happens.

I hadn't thought of that. With the game there for the taking, he brought on Vaughan, Drake and Coen. Left Lee Keegan far too long in our full-back line. Took off Boyle unnecessarily it seems (unless there is something more to it). I kept an eye on Boyle going off and himself and Rochford had a little chat. Don’t know if there was anything in it, but Boyle didn’t seem happy.

Is this GPS thing some rumour. Is it that a player is allocated a certain distance, stamina etc from their training records, and that once they go above that level in a match, they are deemed surplus to requirements.

Farmer_3650 · 31-07-2017 10:58AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

[/b]

I disagree

I'd argue that they have held Roscommon back in the last few years rather than advance them.

They took over a good team from Evans.

They should have won Connacht last year and this year be building on it.

This year they did better v Galway but the way Galway are carrying on, as we saw yesterday, I'm not sure how much that counts for.

Yesterday Roscommon went all out in the early minutes, got their goals but then ran out of ideas. The two very long range free kicks that were missed showed that.
Fair enough they improved in the second half but Mayo were there for the taking.

They have a great opportunity next week, let's see how smart they are.

Mayo are frigged, that's it. They are out of gas.

Note: McStay I don't mind, but because he needs to other guy to follow him that's were the problem is.

I disagree. The only way the Roscommon team was held back is when a lot of our players left Last year but that wasn't really his fault. He took over a good team from Evans, but a lot of them experienced players that were on that team are now gone since they didn't like mchale. A lot of work was put into the league in 2016 and Roscommon went into the championship being way to confident in themselves. That was a big mistake and they have learned from that this year. This year they put very little thought into the league and they were only focused on the championship.

As you said they are in a far better place than Mayo after that match. Mayo have had a match every week for how long now? Both teams made mistakes and overall, played poorly. I can't see Mayo being in great form for the next match so that is a huge advantage for us.

Shurimgreat · 31-07-2017 11:00AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

[/b]

I disagree

I'd argue that they have held Roscommon back in the last few years rather than advance them.

They took over a good team from Evans.

They should have won Connacht last year and this year be building on it.

This year they did better v Galway but the way Galway are carrying on, as we saw yesterday, I'm not sure how much that counts for.

Yesterday Roscommon went all out in the early minutes, got their goals but then ran out of ideas. The two very long range free kicks that were missed showed that.
Fair enough they improved in the second half but Mayo were there for the taking.

They have a great opportunity next week, let's see how smart they are.

Mayo are frigged, that's it. They are out of gas.

Note: McStay I don't mind, but because he needs to other guy to follow him that's were the problem is.

Evans did didly squat in the Championship. He was hopeless, they were beaten left right and centre.

McStay has led them to two Connacht finals, one Connacht title. Their first year in Division 1 was brilliant and it looks like they pretty much ignored the league to focus on the championship this year. And this after several defections and retirements from the camp. Its fair to say McStay has done a great job with Roscommon.

I'm getting tired of reading and hearing people saying things like "McGuinness, McStay, Harte, Gavin, blah blah are holding a team back". Its usually only said about the successful managers.

To say McStay is holding Roscommon back is utter nonsense.

charlie14 · 31-07-2017 11:02AM

corny wrote: »

Not really. The likes of Ryan McHugh and Peter Harte play as supplementary defenders but their real value to the team is in driving forward. McMahon does it for Dublin to a degree. Others fill the spaces.

McHugh and Harte line out as defenders (similar to how Keegan has been used to date) with a forward as company.
The post I was referring too was the idea of starting Keegan as a forward where he would be the one being marker by an assigned defender whose job would be to defend rather than as now, him being in the company of a forward.
Who in general when losing the ball to their markers, are not as a rule particularly skilled defensively.

Oldtree · 31-07-2017 11:19AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yesterday Roscommon went all out in the early minutes, got their goals but then ran out of ideas.

I said roscommon were going to come put howling and they did. I was surprised that we didn't play much more defensively to combat that for the first while.

The roscommon plan seemed to be to have the center forward or half forward make a run toward the opposite wing the ball was coming up, getting a jump start on their marker. It worked twice then that was that but they kept trying it.

I thought that after limerick that our wides problem may have been dealt with but it appears that is not the case. Rochford does not play on the pitch so cannot be blamed for that. The wides cost us the win again.

Rochfords job is to steady the ship and I think the changes did just that, we got the draw after being 7 down in a championship quarter final!

That last long kick in with no-one there showed we are tired, I can only hope the team take steps to recover better this week and may do so as they didn't have to play extra time yesterday.

Roscommon looked vibrant taking full advantage of running up the middle what seemed to me to be very quick. That needed to be nullified a bit earlier imo.

PARlance · 31-07-2017 11:27AM

yop wrote: »

Bringing on 2 backs into the forwards, what does that do for Dillion, Kirby, Regan?

What does that say about that trio would be my question.

The only one I would consider is Dillion, despite his age and recent error against Cork. A calm head and can work himself into a good position to take a score. I've said enough about Regan and I think we're pushing it calling Kirby a forward... I don't think those 2 are viable options.

We only play with 2 pure forwards so while Drake & Coen came on, they were coming on for runners, not forwards per se, imo.

Ironically it would have been great to have Doherty to come on to offer something going forward but he is doing a great shift these days, lots of dirty, hard work.

padd b1975 · 31-07-2017 11:40AM

2pm throw in for the replay.

mayopanda84 · 31-07-2017 11:48AM

padd b1975 wrote: »

2pm throw in for the replay.

source?

yop · 31-07-2017 11:51AM

PARlance wrote: »

What does that say about that trio would be my question.

The only one I would consider is Dillion, despite his age and recent error against Cork. A calm head and can work himself into a good position to take a score. I've said enough about Regan and I think we're pushing it calling Kirby a forward... I don't think those 2 are viable options.

We only play with 2 pure forwards so while Drake & Coen came on, they were coming on for runners, not forwards per se, imo.

Ironically it would have been great to have Doherty to come on to offer something going forward but he is doing a great shift these days, lots of dirty, hard work.

Thats the other thing isn't it. That game screamed from Dillion. He has done it so many times for us in Croker, one single job, one point. Drake was never going to score a point.

Boland, Irwin, Nally all gone, there maybe reasons, but if you have to bring in backs to replace forwards then the selectors have a serious issue.

Mayo GAA Discussion - Part 3

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