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Dublin 15 is going to get a lot more congested.

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Comments

  • #32
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    beauf wrote: »
    Fix the trains and transport link..

    I'm not sure why the Dart had to be every 10secs yet off peak in d.15 its one per hour and at peak the trains are made shorter.

    The buses have a bottle neck in castleknock yet they have approved a shopping centre bang in the middle of the the bottle neck.

    There is no cycle lane into the phoenix park from d. 15.

    Agree with all that.

    But we still need houses.

    So this is a good place to build them.


  • #33
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Only a matter of time before all the green area's are gone. Then D. 15 will be just another characterless concrete jungle, with bad traffic.


  • #34
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,781 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    beauf wrote: »
    Only a matter of time before all the green area's are gone. Then D. 15 will be just another characterless concrete jungle, with bad traffic.

    Thats a massive exaggeration.


  • #35
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Don't see why. ...It is relentless.


  • #36
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,781 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    beauf wrote: »
    Don't see why. ...It is relentless.

    Its an exaggeration, because Dublin 15 is at least blessed with lots of public open spaces, greens, parks and playing pitches that are not going to be subject to housing development.

    Yes, fair enough, a good few private sites that are currently overgrown and locked up and have never had public amenity value will eventually be built on, but its hardly the scenario you describe.


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  • #37
    1123heavy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    There are far too many people in the area. From arriving in 2009, the place has expanded like a balloon. Every road, every field, every bit of empty patch of land they can find they stick something on it. It is going too far at this stage. I went to a resident's meeting with Leo back in December and everyone in the audience was more concerned with whether a speed bump was going on road xyz rather than pointing out to him that the place is exploding!


  • #38
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,781 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    For God's sake, the place is not "exploding".

    The reason the others at the meeting had other fish to fry is that your description is wrong.


  • #39
    December2012
    Registered Users Posts: 4,695 ✭✭✭December2012


    1123heavy wrote: »
    There are far too many people in the area. From arriving in 2009, the place has expanded like a balloon. Every road, every field, every bit of empty patch of land they can find they stick something on it. It is going too far at this stage. I went to a resident's meeting with Leo back in December and everyone in the audience was more concerned with whether a speed bump was going on road xyz rather than pointing out to him that the place is exploding!

    So you're allowed to move here during the last construction boom but you're objecting to others?


  • #40
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The point is the level of housing development is many times what has been invested in the transport network capacity.

    So many schools even recent schools which had land around them now have none. Green areas are rezoned for building. The roads are far busier and traffic jams are now normal a few times a day in many places.

    I suppose we have to accept that D.15 is destined to be a classic urban sprawl repeating all the problems that we've not learnt from that.


  • #41
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    beauf wrote: »
    The point is the level of housing development is many times what has been invested in the transport network capacity.

    So many schools even recent schools which had land around them now have none. Green areas are rezoned for building. The roads are far busier and traffic jams are now normal a few times a day in many places.

    I suppose we have to accept that D.15 is destined to be a classic urban sprawl repeating all the problems that we've not learnt from that.

    The horse has bolted on urban sprawl I'm afraid. That ship sailed in the 60s and 70s.

    I'm sorry to be a dick but do you have any actual proposal as to what else should be done?


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  • #42
    1123heavy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    December2012 wrote: »
    So you're allowed to move here during the last construction boom but you're objecting to others?

    The plans have changed quite some bit since 2009.

    The place is overloaded. That road up the back of Littlepace onto the N3 could be any road in Bangladesh with the amount of cars on it - it is mission impossible. Do a u-turn? Yes, head up via Blanch Centre way to find the biggest parking lot in the country at that time of the morning. Head via Clonee? A deceptive thought, the T junction by Lidl is as far as you get before you realise what a terrible decision. At this point one has to stop and simply admit we cannot handle what has happened to us. It was not like this in 2009.

    The only people who ever make their voices heard are the speed bump brigade.


  • #43
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    1123heavy wrote: »
    The plans have changed quite some bit since 2009.

    The place is overloaded. That road up the back of Littlepace onto the N3 could be any road in Bangladesh with the amount of cars on it - it is mission impossible. Do a u-turn? Yes, head up via Blanch Centre way to find the biggest parking lot in the country at that time of the morning. Head via Clonee? A deceptive thought, the T junction by Lidl is as far as you get before you realise what a terrible decision. At this point one has to stop and simply admit we cannot handle what has happened to us. It was not like this in 2009.

    The only people who ever make their voices heard are the speed bump brigade.

    I don't know if you read the OP but the council is asking for submissions, so here's your chance.


  • #44
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,781 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    1123heavy wrote: »
    The plans have changed quite some bit since 2009.

    The place is overloaded. That road up the back of Littlepace onto the N3 could be any road in Bangladesh with the amount of cars on it - it is mission impossible. Do a u-turn? Yes, head up via Blanch Centre way to find the biggest parking lot in the country at that time of the morning. Head via Clonee? A deceptive thought, the T junction by Lidl is as far as you get before you realise what a terrible decision. At this point one has to stop and simply admit we cannot handle what has happened to us. It was not like this in 2009.

    The only people who ever make their voices heard are the speed bump brigade.

    Have you literally ever been anywhere in the world or am I feeding a troll here? Ive seen traffic in the Far East that would give you heart failure if you reckon a road busy for 45 mins around school opening time is as bad as Bangladesh. I hate to break it to you, but billions of people, even in small villages in Mayo get held up at that time of the morning. Would you ever get some perspective.


  • #45
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Former Former wrote: »
    The horse has bolted on urban sprawl I'm afraid. That ship sailed in the 60s and 70s.

    I'm sorry to be a dick but do you have any actual proposal as to what else should be done?

    Raise the building height in the city

    Increase the capacity in the trains. Stop making the trains shorter and using intercity trains for commuters. Use commuter carriages.

    Run more trains into the docklands.

    Build a proper cycle superhighways from .D15 into city center. One via park the other via canal.

    Stop building things like national children hospitals in an already grid locked and land locked location. Build it outside the city so traffic to it heads out of the city.

    Stop building tons of low density housing in locations where there is inadequate public transport.

    I'm not sure why people think hour long queues in the phoenix park is normal. It's not LA.


  • #46
    vegetables
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭vegetables


    beauf wrote: »
    Raise the building height in the city

    Increase the capacity in the trains. Stop making the trains shorter and using intercity trains for commuters. Use commuter carriages.

    Run more trains into the docklands.

    Build a proper cycle superhighways from .D15 into city center. One via park the other via canal.

    Stop building things like national children hospitals in an already grid locked and land locked location. Build it outside the city so traffic to it heads out of the city.

    Stop building tons of low density housing in locations where there is inadequate public transport.

    I'm not sure why people think hour long queues in the phoenix park is normal. It's not LA.

    Yes sir I'll get right on it.

    - Leo.


  • #47
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    ... even in small villages in Mayo get held up at that time of the morning. Would you ever get some perspective.

    Where I am in D15 is 2hrs of heavy traffic morning and evening. Making some areas a no go area. If I go 5mins from my house it can 20mins to get back to it in the other direction. The vast majority of this traffic is just through traffic from outside the area.

    This is all because there are only 3 single lane routes into city centre from D. 15 and from wherever the traffic coming through D. 15 is coming from.

    Navan Rd. Castleknock and Chapelizod. All are bottlenecks. Their throughput has been reducing every year. They don't want cars in the city. So we have to move to other forms of transport.

    Building more housing on train line that you often can't physically get on much of the time. Isn't much of a solution.


  • #48
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    vegetables wrote: »
    Yes sir I'll get right on it.

    - Leo.

    I think the developers interests will get higher priority as they always do..


  • #49
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    beauf wrote: »
    I think the developers interests will get higher priority as they always do..

    It's in everyone's interests. We need more housing stock.

    A greenfield site directly adjacent to a train station is about as good as it's going to get.

    Like, it's all very nice to say we should have cycle lanes - but the numbers of people who would cycle from Hansfield to town are miniscule, cycle superhighway or not. It's great to say we shouldn't have urban sprawl but no one wants to live in an apartment, we all want our house and garden once we turn 30. And we DEFINITELY don't want to live in high density that far out. Ongar is proof of that.

    Let's be realistic here.


  • #50
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The planet is doomed...


  • #51
    vegetables
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭vegetables


    Former Former wrote: »
    It's in everyone's interests. We need more housing stock.

    A greenfield site directly adjacent to a train station is about as good as it's going to get.

    Like, it's all very nice to say we should have cycle lanes - but the numbers of people who would cycle from Hansfield to town are miniscule, cycle superhighway or not. It's great to say we shouldn't have urban sprawl but no one wants to live in an apartment, we all want our house and garden once we turn 30. And we DEFINITELY don't want to live in high density that far out. Ongar is proof of that.

    Let's be realistic here.

    does this only happen in Ireland, the obsession with a house and nothing but a house.

    why can a person not be allowed to buy a cheap flat or apartment.

    i see them on the continent when there on holidays, nothing big or fancy, just a cave to call home, on the 7th/8th floor.
    price - maybe 80 grand.

    i swear, this country - its like 'well i want it so obviously everyone else does too'.

    the planning is - 'obviously everyone wants a semi-d with a garden for the children which they obviously want' so lets build that, and that alone, since nobody could possibly want to live anywhere other than in a semi-d with a 30 year mortgage.

    maybe im wrong about this. just seems that way.


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  • #52
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    We obviously need more housing.

    But in the D15 context, there is noticeably a massive increase in the volume of traffic on the road and public transport, over the past couple of years on a rate far above previous years/decades. Even in the last 12 months the trains I get are vastly more busy.

    Build more housing its just logical to build more transport capacity to handle it. Instead we seem to just accept bad planning and lack of infrastructure as ok.


  • #53
    1123heavy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    All that's missing is Denis O'Brien rearing his ugly head on one of these "developments".

    And I agree fully with the poster above, the traffic situation has increased exponentially in the past 2/3 years. It is chaos out there in the mornings, I am convinced my car's clutch cables became worn over it. Rarely have I ever had to do so much moving of 1 metre at a time. All these issues compounded of course by people not knowing how to navigate a mini roundabout.

    Look, let's not kid ourselves, infrastructure is lacking big time in the area.


  • #54
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    beauf wrote: »
    We obviously need more housing.

    But in the D15 context, there is noticeably a massive increase in the volume of traffic on the road and public transport, over the past couple of years on a rate far above previous years/decades. Even in the last 12 months the trains I get are vastly more busy.

    Build more housing its just lo8gical to build more transport capacity to handle it. Instead we seem to just accept bad planning and lack of infrastructure as ok.

    This site is adjacent to a train station which only opened in the last five years, on a line which was only built in the last ten. Before the end of the year, this train line is going to link up with a brand new tram line. There's been more infrastructure built in the last ten years than there was in the previous ninety.

    Huge mistakes have been made going back 50 or 60 years, including a dismantling of a railway network much better than what we currently have. They can't be undone. The fundamental problem with Dublin is not low density in the outer suburbs, it's low density in postcodes 1 to 8. All we can do now is try to manage it as best we can; there's no easy solution but we have to build houses.


  • #55
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Former Former wrote:
    This site is adjacent to a train station which only opened in the last five years, on a line which was only built in the last ten. Before the end of the year, this train line is going to link up with a brand new tram line. There's been more infrastructure built in the last ten years than there was in the previous ninety.

    The train service you mention, there's no capacity , people struggle to get on and the maynooth line , that this line connects to struggles with capacity at peak times and is poor frequency off-peak

    They seem to be taking action to resolve this but if they don't, I would love to see a repeat of years ago where the judge refused planning permission until the work was done on stations to improve the transport situation.


  • #56
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    vegetables wrote: »
    does this only happen in Ireland, the obsession with a house and nothing but a house.

    why can a person not be allowed to buy a cheap flat or apartment.

    i see them on the continent when there on holidays, nothing big or fancy, just a cave to call home, on the 7th/8th floor.
    price - maybe 80 grand.
    ...

    maybe im wrong about this. just seems that way.

    How many such apartments can you buy in places with high demand such as London, Paris etc?

    You can buy an apartment in Ireland for 80 grand, but it's ridiculous to think you'll get it right in the middle of a city where there's a big demand to live in and a shortage of accomodation.

    If people are finding traffic too much to cope with, cycle, or at least drive as far as the Navan Road station and cycle from there.


  • #57
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    thomasj wrote: »
    The train service you mention, there's no capacity , people struggle to get on and the maynooth line , that this line connects to struggles with capacity at peak times and is poor frequency off-peak

    They seem to be taking action to resolve this but if they don't, I would love to see a repeat of years ago where the judge refused planning permission until the work was done on stations to improve the transport situation.

    People have short memories. The Hansfield station was built long before any houses went in there. There's a similar one in Lucan that was built and hasn't been opened because the promised houses never materialised. Navan Road Parkway was a ghost station for years because it was built in advance of the development. So what you want is exactly what has been done.

    I get the train every day, have done for the last 12 years. The only train that is ever "full" is the one that runs all the way to Bray. Every other train is grand. If people expect to get a seat at rush hour, then no, we absolutely should not add enough trains and capacity for that, it would be insane.

    Frequency is poor off-peak, no doubt, but then the trains are generally empty off-peak too. Ramping it up so we have even emptier trains more often isn't a good use of public money.


  • #58
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭AlanG


    Former Former wrote: »
    I get the train every day, have done for the last 12 years. The only train that is ever "full" is the one that runs all the way to Bray. Every other train is grand.

    Not sure what trains you are on but there are regularly trains inbound that cannot be boarded in Ashtown. Quite a lot of people I know don't get the train from Ashtown anymore because of the difficulties getting on, I am sure this looks like there is reduced demand.

    Most of the trains out of the city from 4:30 to 6:30 are packed by Tara.

    The dart lines don't suffer anything like this pressure on service.


  • #59
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Trains are shorter at peak.

    Trains I get are jammed. Often we leave people on the platform because you can't physically get in the train. I used to bring a folding bike, but I stopped because there isn't room because people are standing and sitting in the luggage spaces.

    The issue isn't station's. It's capacity on the train line. Yes its increased but it in no way even close to the demand. Never was. I've been using it for decades. It has never got the resources that other lines did. The trains from Hueston have caused more delays now.

    I'm considering switching to an electric bike myself. I cycle it a couple of days, but couldn't do it every day.


  • #60
    vegetables
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭vegetables


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    How many such apartments can you buy in places with high demand such as London, Paris etc?

    You can buy an apartment in Ireland for 80 grand, but it's ridiculous to think you'll get it right in the middle of a city where there's a big demand to live in and a shortage of accomodation.

    If people are finding traffic too much to cope with, cycle, or at least drive as far as the Navan Road station and cycle from there.

    D15's hardly the middle.


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  • #61
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    AlanG wrote: »
    Not sure what trains you are on but there are regularly trains inbound that cannot be boarded in Ashtown. Quite a lot of people I know don't get the train from Ashtown anymore because of the difficulties getting on, I am sure this looks like there is reduced demand.

    Most of the trains out of the city from 4:30 to 6:30 are packed by Tara.

    The dart lines don't suffer anything like this pressure on service.

    OK. That's not my experience but fair enough.

    But the question still remains - what do you do?

    Do you build the houses along the train line, which at least holds out the possibility of adding capacity to the service?

    Or do you build the houses somewhere else that is not on a train line and compound all the previous planning errors?

    If this is a thread about Iarnrod Eireann's shortcomings, then great, I've a litany of tales of delays and cancellations. If it's a thread about urban planning, then you build houses close to infrastructure.


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