Brexit discussion thread II

Nody · 27-07-2017 03:14PM

Well Mrs May well prepared team are showing of their well done preparations and negotiation skills in Brussels in the second round as well:

Mr Barnier reportedly told the ambassadors it would “very unlikely” that “sufficient progress” would be made on the exit talks by October and that the Council’s judgement on beginning trade talks – Theresa May’s priority – could be delayed by two months.

"He said the likelihood of starting the future relationship talks in October appeared to be decreasing," one EU official involved in the talks told Reuters.

The official added: “Barnier expressed concerns that sufficient progress in October looked difficult now. Mainly because Britain has no position on finances, but also because they don't have positions on other issues as well."

As soon as the UK is ready to clarify the nature of its commitments, we will be prepared to discuss this with the British negotiators.”

“I know one has to compromise in negotiations but we are not there yet,” he added. “That’s the financial settlement, let’s be very clear. We want clarity on that because we need to be able to work more until we come to areas of compromise."

Full article is here but honestly seeing how well May's government is handling this she's making Trump's administration look competent by comparison...

View · 27-07-2017 03:34PM

It should be pointed out that as of right now there is no proposal whatsoever on the negotiating table for any type of arrangement, even a "standard" trade deal, between the UK and the EU for the post-exit situation.

As such, all the talk of the merits of particular types of arrangements or trade deals are pure pie in the sky speculation.

It would be akin to Leo V's cabinet assuming we'll have loads of new money in two years time from massively increased Irish trade with Brazil, all based on the benefits of a new EU-Mercosur trade deal that is nowhere near agreement, much less implementation (and to set that in context those negotiations are currently on their 28th round of talks and counting).

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 03:34PM

Nody wrote: »

Well Mrs May well prepared team are showing of their well done preparations and negotiation skills in Brussels in the second round as well:
Full article is here but honestly seeing how well May's government is handling this she's making Trump's administration look competent by comparison...

I'll say one thing about the eu team, they love to use the media to put pressure on the UK government.

sondagefaux · 27-07-2017 04:00PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'll say one thing about the eu team, they love to use the media to put pressure on the UK government.

Reality is putting pressure on the UK government.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-primary-dealers-idUSKBN1AB10U

First Up · 27-07-2017 04:04PM

Fratton Fred wrote:

I'll say one thing about the eu team, they love to use the media to put pressure on the UK government.

The UK government has bigger reasons to feel under pressure than what the EU is telling the media.

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 05:23PM

sondagefaux wrote: »

Reality is putting pressure on the UK government.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-primary-dealers-idUSKBN1AB10U

I was on holiday recently with several people who worked in the city, ranging from Investment banks to fund managers.

The real feeling among them is that the French will do everything in their power to grab the banking industry from London and they don't particularly like it. It could shoot the french in the foot, because Paris is, apparently, one of the last places they want to go to. So the French could wrestle the banks out of London, only for them to end up in Dublin or Frankfurt.

murphaph · 27-07-2017 05:31PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'll say one thing about the eu team, they love to use the media to put pressure on the UK government.

Come on now Fred. The UK has brought all this on itself. If you want to leave a 44 year union you take the time to draft a serious plan before pulling the trigger and starting a countdown.

sondagefaux · 27-07-2017 06:17PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I was on holiday recently with several people who worked in the city, ranging from Investment banks to fund managers.

The real feeling among them is that the French will do everything in their power to grab the banking industry from London and they don't particularly like it. It could shoot the french in the foot, because Paris is, apparently, one of the last places they want to go to. So the French could wrestle the banks out of London, only for them to end up in Dublin or Frankfurt.

How come there's an opportunity for the French to 'grab the banking industry from London'?

A self-inflicted wound by the British. Can you blame other countries for trying to take advantage?

If the French had voted to leave the EU, and the UK was staying in, the UK would be all over French industries trying to get them out of France.

As for them not liking it, I have a feeling these lads love of money will trump their dislike of Paris...

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 06:54PM

sondagefaux wrote: »

How come there's an opportunity for the French to 'grab the banking industry from London'?

A self-inflicted wound by the British. Can you blame other countries for trying to take advantage?

If the French had voted to leave the EU, and the UK was staying in, the UK would be all over French industries trying to get them out of France.

As for them not liking it, I have a feeling these lads love of money will trump their dislike of Paris...

Love of London mainly to be honest. They don't want to leave and as they will get a say in the matter, probably won't.

It isn't just their live if money, it's their employers love of the money they make for them.

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 06:58PM

murphaph wrote: »

Come on now Fred. The UK has brought all this on itself. If you want to leave a 44 year union you take the time to draft a serious plan before pulling the trigger and starting a countdown.

At first they were criticised for taking time, now they get criticised for not taking time.

The government have a thin line to walk. They have to carry out the wishes of the country and they have to protect the nation's interests, whilst fending off political pressure at home. All the time having to run a country. The eu team only have one job to do and are free from any other distractions.

listermint · 27-07-2017 07:21PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

Come on now Fred. The UK has brought all this on itself. If you want to leave a 44 year union you take the time to draft a serious plan before pulling the trigger and starting a countdown.

At first they were criticised for taking time, now they get criticised for not taking time.

The government have a thin line to walk. They have to carry out the wishes of the country and they have to protect the nation's interests, whilst fending off political pressure at home. All the time having to run a country. The eu team only have one job to do and are free from any other distractions.

Stop using terms like wishes of the country because it makes a mockery of the argument you make afterwards.

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 07:25PM

listermint wrote: »

Stop using terms like wishes of the country because it makes a mockery of the argument you make afterwards.

How do you find the wishes of the country? Hold a referendum maybe?

First Up · 27-07-2017 07:45PM

Fratton Fred wrote:

The eu team only have one job to do and are free from any other distractions.

Yes, all they have to do is balance the interests of 27 countries and ensure that the eventual agreement with the UK is consistent with the WTO and the EU's trade agreements with China, India, US and the rest.

You'd be surprised if they had to turn up for work every day.

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 08:03PM

First Up wrote: »

Yes, all they have to do is balance the interests of 27 countries and ensure that the eventual agreement with the UK is consistent with the WTO and the EU's trade agreements with China, India, US and the rest.

You'd be surprised if they had to turn up for work every day.

what, you mean Michel Barnier or Guy Verhofstadt would fail to get re-elected or have to face the wrath of an electorate if the uk crashes out of the eu without any sort of deal?

First Up · 27-07-2017 08:10PM

Fratton Fred wrote:

what, you mean Michel Barnier or Guy Verhofstadt would fail to get re-elected or have to face the wrath of an electorate if the uk crashes out of the eu without any sort of deal?

Concern about being re-elected is what has gotten May & company into this mess. If their priority had been doing their job properly, Barnier and Verhofstadt would be doing something else.

murphaph · 27-07-2017 08:20PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

At first they were criticised for taking time, now they get criticised for not taking time.

The time for planning was before the referendum. The 2 year countdown was not a surprise.

In what can only be described as a dereliction of duty, Cameron actively prevented any form of planning for Brexit before the referendum.

The UK government alone bears any and all responsibility for the mess we now see.

steddyeddy · 27-07-2017 08:28PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How do you find the wishes of the country? Hold a referendum maybe?

That's the wishes of two countries, England and Wales.

An Claidheamh · 27-07-2017 08:33PM

Anyone else reckon the irony of this headline is lost on Brexiteers?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/833321/Brexit-news-Irish-TD-anti-Brexit-swipe-reunite-Ireland-Northern-Ireland-European-Union/amp

steddyeddy · 27-07-2017 08:39PM

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Anyone else reckon the irony of this headline is lost on Brexiteers?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/833321/Brexit-news-Irish-TD-anti-Brexit-swipe-reunite-Ireland-Northern-Ireland-European-Union/amp

Surprising how many Brexiters get angry about a part of Ireland leaving the UK. Especially considering half of them hadn't heard about the DUP before a few weeks back. I'll say it again; Brexiters are stuck in an imperial mindset. It's given them a false sense of Britain's place in the world.

First Up · 27-07-2017 08:39PM

Fratton Fred wrote:

How do you find the wishes of the country? Hold a referendum maybe?

Be careful what you wish for.

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 08:44PM

First Up wrote: »

Concern about being re-elected is what has gotten May & company into this mess. If their priority had been doing their job properly, Barnier and Verhofstadt would be doing something else.

According to one German MEP, Guy Verhofstadt is to blame as well

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/832771/Brexit-news-Germany-MEP-slams-Guy-Verhofstadt-Brexit-role-European-Union

First Up · 27-07-2017 08:59PM

Fratton Fred wrote:

According to one German MEP, Guy Verhofstadt is to blame as well

Herr Henkel's party has a lot in common with UKIP so his views are hardly surprising.

They got 4.7% of the votes in the last German Federal election so you can decide how well they reflect the wishes of the people.

Capt'n Midnight · 27-07-2017 09:19PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Theresa May is not a Brexiteer.

Technically true.

She'd need to soften her views on the ECJ and dial it down to be just a hard Brexteer. Hard Brexit is a necessary step to leave the ECJ.

Anything else is just aspirational guff of the "having your cake and eating it".

I'm sure if someone where to go back through the records they'd find that many of the powers she wants to deport people are already on the books, in the sense that the people involved may have been deported for other reasons. Or ask their country of origin to request extradition.

steddyeddy · 27-07-2017 09:23PM

It's complete stupidity to say May is anything but a Brexiter.

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 09:25PM

First Up wrote: »

Herr Henkel's party has a lot in common with UKIP so his views are hardly surprising.

They got 4.7% of the votes in the last German Federal election so you can decide how well they reflect the wishes of the people.

What do you mean by "A lot in common"? they are in two seperate european parties.

Herr Henkel's party is a european sceptic/reformist party. UKIP are simply anti eu.

I know criticism of the eu is not allowed on here, but wanting to reform the eu is very very different to wanting to exit the eu.

Sand · 27-07-2017 09:26PM

There seems to be a wild idea about the UK seeking observer status on the EU foreign policy committees. I'm amused by the idea to be honest.

I can see exactly what the UK hopes to gain from such an arrangement but its less clear what the EU gains, given the UK traditionally does its best to sabotage any sort of EU foreign policy or defence arrangements. Any assets the UK can offer in a positive fashion, be it diplomatic, intelligence or military can be accessed simply by picking up the phone and appealing to common interests or just simple leaning on the UK. As far as common defence goes, NATO exists separate to the EU. The EU has no need to otherwise indulge the UK's post imperial funk.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'll say one thing about the eu team, they love to use the media to put pressure on the UK government.

Welcome to being outside the tent. This is what negotiations with a greater power look like.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

At first they were criticised for taking time, now they get criticised for not taking time.

The thing is they took their time, more than an entire year. And they spent it mocking Remoaners, endlessly repeating tiresome banal slogans like "Brexit means Brexit", insulting silly Europeans whose kindness they will ultimately depend on and losing a needless general election. They certainly didn't spend it actually preparing to go up against the EU negotiating team in the most critical fight for the UK's interests over the next 30 years. The last 12 months is a microcosm of the entire failure of UK politics and leadership over the last 30-40 years to which Brexit is the exclamation point.

BoJo is the Foreign Secretary Fred. Boris Johnson. That's UK politics summed up right there.

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 09:27PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's complete stupidity to say May is anything but a Brexiter.

really? So anyone who disagrees with you is stupid?

Nice.

She campaigned for the remain side and openly spoke of the down falls of leaving the eu.

Fratton Fred · 27-07-2017 09:33PM

Sand wrote: »

There seems to be a wild idea about the UK seeking observer status on the EU foreign policy committees. I'm amused by the idea to be honest.

I can see exactly what the UK hopes to gain from such an arrangement but its less clear what the EU gains, given the UK traditionally does its best to sabotage any sort of EU foreign policy or defence arrangements. Any assets the UK can offer in a positive fashion, be it diplomatic, intelligence or military can be accessed simply by picking up the phone and appealing to common interests or just simple leaning on the UK. As far as common defence goes, NATO exists separate to the EU. The EU has no need to otherwise indulge the UK's post imperial funk.

oh dear god. Post imperial funk blah blah blah.

When has the UK sabotaged any eu foreign of defence policy?

Sand wrote: »

Welcome to being outside the tent. This is what negotiations with a greater power look like.

really?

Sand wrote: »

The thing is they took their time, more than an entire year. And they spent it mocking Remoaners, endlessly repeating tiresome banal slogans like "Brexit means Brexit", insulting silly Europeans whose kindness they will ultimately depend on and losing a needless general election.

hang on, did the Conservatives lose the general election?

no, they didn't, which means you don't know what your talking about.

Thought so

Sand wrote: »

They certainly didn't spend it actually preparing to go up against the EU negotiating team in the most critical fight for the UK's interests over the next 30 years. The last 12 months is a microcosm of the entire failure of UK politics and leadership over the last 30-40 years to which Brexit is the exclamation point.

and you know that how, exactly?

Sand wrote: »

BoJo is the Foreign Secretary Fred. Boris Johnson. That's UK politics summed up right there.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.....

Sand · 27-07-2017 09:34PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

She campaigned for the remain side and openly spoke of the down falls of leaving the eu.

That just means she is less principled than David Cameron.

steddyeddy · 27-07-2017 09:36PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

really? So anyone who disagrees with you is stupid?

Nice.

She campaigned for the remain side and openly spoke of the down falls of leaving the eu.

Yes that's exactly what I said.

She's a flag in that she points where ever the wind blows. Now she's a fully paid up Brexiter once she realised what the people voted for. Her alliance with the DUP gives a full account of her integrity.

Brexit discussion thread II

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