Bar serving an alcoholic

JupiterKid · 26-07-2017 05:58PM

Estrellita wrote: »

People that have been off the drink years attending AA still refer to themselves as alcoholics. Why? Because it's an addiction they have to work hard at to abstain, but the threat is always there. Not every alcoholic has the willpower for attempting abstinence. That is addiction at work, not irresponsibility.

Thank you for this post. This is basically the kernel of the nature of addiction. Yes, one has a choice not to go into the pub, or booze aisle of a supermarket, one has a choice not to pick up that drink but the power of addiction can be so overwhelming that it makes the decision for you. Maintaining sobriety is hard work. Bloody hard work. You can't go it alone.

I have had a number of slips and I can never take my sobriety for granted. Alcoholism is a living hell, for the addict and those around them. Addicts don't choose to become addicts. I didn't wake up one day and decide to become an alcoholic. A series of crises in my life in my early 30s led to that point.

I can understand Backward's Man's concern for those he serves but refusing to serve an alcoholic does not make one jot of difference. When you are addicted you will get booze one way or the other. How sad and pathetic is that.

hatrickpatrick · 26-07-2017 06:01PM

tayto lover wrote: »

So you'd have no problems with the drunk getting into and driving his car then?

That causes harm to others, ergo is not a victimless action.

freshpopcorn · 26-07-2017 06:02PM

If I look at the local pubs in the area the regulars are all border line alcoholics or alcoholics. If the publicans didn't server them they'd probably open at weekends.

Are Am Eye · 26-07-2017 06:03PM

If I owned a pub we would provide a discount for alcoholics.

It's all about making the customer number 1.
It is ten times easier to keep an existing client than it is to win over a new one in todays cut throat market place.

hatrickpatrick · 26-07-2017 06:04PM

aaronjumper wrote: »

Personal responsibility isn't a thing anymore. Everyone gets to tell everyone else how to live and make their decisions for them.

Pretty much this. I find it repulsive. But let's not pretend that it was ever a thing in the past either - sex work has been illegal for most if not all of Western history, with very few exceptions. Drugs were criminalised in the mid twentieth century not because of the potential health risks, but because of their potential to upset the social order. Social libertarianism may have existed among the upper classes of some ancient civilisations (The Romans seem for instance to have been known for it - did they have laws against homosexuality or anything like that? And they certainly had bullsh!t laws around religion and, post-democracy, respect for the emperor) but in modern Western civilisation it's still a relatively new concept.

armaghlad · 26-07-2017 06:04PM

In our place generally speaking we reserve the right to refuse customers without explanation. Legally any bar can do this.

It comes down to common sense and maybe a bit of compassion, I know what alcoholism can do to a person. We have one customer in particular that comes in, he's probably the only person I'd consider an alcoholic that comes in. He is usually sober-ish and knows he'll only get served one or two before being told by staff he's not getting any more. Why he comes in is beyond me - most alcoholics in my experience drink discretely at home and often try to hide their problem.

Elmo · 26-07-2017 06:25PM

armaghlad wrote: »

In our place generally speaking we reserve the right to refuse customers without explanation. Legally any bar can do this.

It comes down to common sense and maybe a bit of compassion, I know what alcoholism can do to a person. We have one customer in particular that comes in, he's probably the only person I'd consider an alcoholic that comes in. He is usually sober-ish and knows he'll only get served one or two before being told by staff he's not getting any more. Why he comes in is beyond me - most alcoholics in my experience drink discretely at home and often try to hide their problem.

They come in because of loneliness and/or depression.

If the OP is worried about the man he should sit down with him and have a normal chat it might lead to the alcoholic in this case considering why he is drinking. You don't have to make the chat about his drinking problem, you may never talk about that.

aaronjumper · 26-07-2017 06:30PM

Bruthal wrote: »

Unable to walk straight, gets into car and off he goes, all over the road.

He/she should be allowed to do so??

He said SELF destructive, someone else already tried this argument on the previous page.

ceadaoin. · 26-07-2017 06:33PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Yeah, I don't want to be the one pouring the drink down oul lad's throat until it kills him
I don't want to be the one that gave the bottle of vodka to the woman that passed out on her baby and smothered it

I don't want to be the one that served the alcoholic that killed himself and three others in a car crash

How fcuking selfish of me alright.

Those things can all happen to people who aren't alcoholics. Selling drink to anyone incurs those risks whether they are addicted to alcohol or not. Probably best to get out of the bar business altogether if you have issues with possibly enabling those scenarios.

Fair enough, if you knew for a fact that someone had cirrhosis or something and literally any more drink could kill them. I could understand not wanting to be a part of that. Apart from that I would probably let them have a couple of drinks but cut them off before they got to the point of being hammered drunk.

Bruthal · 26-07-2017 06:36PM

aaronjumper wrote: »

He said SELF destructive, someone else already tried this argument on the previous page.

Not really, he said they should be allowed do what they like.

The Backwards Man · 26-07-2017 06:38PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Those things can all happen to people who aren't alcoholics. Selling drink to anyone incurs those risks whether they are addicted to alcohol or not. Probably best to get out of the bar business altogether if you have issues with possibly enabling those scenarios.

They can happen to people who don't drink or have never set foot in a pub too. There will always be risks, it's how you manage them that says what type of person you are.

aaronjumper · 26-07-2017 06:40PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This thread is primarily not about alcohol for me. Consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever the f*ck they want, self-destructive or not. I apply the same logic to everything, from drug use to prostitution.

Bruthal wrote: »

Not really, he said they should be allowed do what they like.

There is the post.

As long as the person isn't hurting other people they should have personal autonomy is the point he was trying to make and I agree.

Bruthal · 26-07-2017 06:53PM

aaronjumper wrote: »

There is the post.

As long as the person isn't hurting other people they should have personal autonomy is the point he was trying to make and I agree.

It would be interesting to see how many alcoholics or drug addicts never affect anyone else negatively.

But id agree myself if taking drugs etc and doing anything you like affects no one else. They usually do though.

aaronjumper · 26-07-2017 07:00PM

Bruthal wrote: »

It would be interesting to see how many alcoholics or drug addicts never affect anyone else negatively.

But id agree myself.

I'm sure it would, not the point here however. Emotional pain and endangering lives are quite different.

Fair enough.

All My Stars Aligned · 26-07-2017 07:02PM

The whole they's go out of business argument is total BS. If publicans had there way they'd happily do away with drink driving laws. They don't seem to have a grain of social decency in them. Bar are by law not allowed serve alcohol to anybody under the influence yet walk about any night after closing time and we see how law abiding our barmen/publicans are.

There is a thing called social responsibility, and if, as in the OP, the barman knows that somebody has a problem with alcohol, then yes he should not serve him.

Those saying he'll just go elsewhere, the thing is if every barman did the same at least it may give the poor man some food for thought.

Ipso · 26-07-2017 07:04PM

aaronjumper wrote: »

There is the post.

As long as the person isn't hurting other people they should have personal autonomy is the point he was trying to make and I agree.

After a certain amount of drink he probably has lost all capability of rational thought. He could leave a pub and get in a car and think he's in a fit state to drive.

aaronjumper · 26-07-2017 07:19PM

Ipso wrote: »

After a certain amount of drink he probably has lost all capability of rational thought. He could leave a pub and get in a car and think he's in a fit state to drive.

First we have the expectation of being personal guardian now it's detective.
If you think a drunk is going to try and drive you stop them or call the guards. You know it's not just alcoholics that have been done for drinking and driving.

Why the push on this one aspect instead of talking about whether or not we are responsible for the other person?

Bruthal · 26-07-2017 07:19PM

aaronjumper wrote: »

I'm sure it would, not the point here however. Emotional pain and endangering lives are quite different.

Kids welcoming home a drunken father 7 nights a week perhaps, once he takes the bus?

hatrickpatrick · 26-07-2017 07:20PM

Bruthal wrote: »

Not really, he said they should be allowed do what they like.

...provided their actions aren't directly harmful to others. Drunken driving is definitely harmless to others.

hatrickpatrick · 26-07-2017 07:22PM

Bruthal wrote: »

It would be interesting to see how many alcoholics or drug addicts never affect anyone else negatively.

But id agree myself if taking drugs etc and doing anything you like affects no one else. They usually do though.

Usually, but not necessarily. And individual freedom shouldn't be curtailed on the balance of probability.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 26-07-2017 07:25PM

He's not anyone else's problem unfortunately, you can't help someone who refuses to help themselves

Bruthal · 26-07-2017 07:29PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...provided their actions aren't directly harmful to others.

That was added later, but id say it was what you meant in the previous post to that. But like I said, id agree. But many things we do are harmful to others.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And individual freedom shouldn't be curtailed on the balance of probability.

Lots of things are illegal based on probability, rather than certainty.

aaronjumper · 26-07-2017 07:40PM

Bruthal wrote: »

Kids welcoming home a drunken father 7 nights a week perhaps, once he takes the bus?

Maybe the adult loved ones should be intervening in a situation like that instead of expecting the barman to gleam all this from the other side of the bar?

'Pint of Heineken please'
'That'll be a fiver and your life story first.'

You're trying to make your posts quite emotive and make the alcoholics choices and problems everyone elses responsibility though.

xzanti · 26-07-2017 07:49PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So sorry to hear this.

Bruthal · 26-07-2017 07:50PM

aaronjumper wrote: »

Maybe the adult loved ones should be intervening in a situation like that instead of expecting the barman to gleam all this from the other side of the bar?

'Pint of Heineken please'
'That'll be a fiver and your life story first.'

You're trying to make your posts quite emotive and make the alcoholics choices and problems everyone elses responsibility though.

Not trying to do anything. We were discussing a point about adults being allowed do what they like, once it harms no one else. Drinking alone regularly in a rain forest might be the solution to that point. Id put the "not harming others" a bit closer to the emotional side, than the causing death side.

As for the barman serving the alcoholic, that is a tricky one, especially when its the start of his session.

Are Am Eye · 26-07-2017 07:55PM

In some respects it is better that a problem drinker is in a pub under the eye of the publican or barman and other customers and locals. As opposed to getting a bottle of meth and going to a field.

Either way will ultimately need an intervention and a will to get better themselves.

aaronjumper · 26-07-2017 08:00PM

Bruthal wrote: »

Not trying to do anything. We were discussing a point about adults being allowed do what they like, once it harms no one else. Drinking in a rain forest might be the solution to that point.

As for the barman serving the alcoholic, that is a tricky one, especially when its the start of his session.

I suppose we'll have to move all of the things that could potentially harm people out to that rain forest too.
Clearly it's the only reasonable solution.

Irish Guitarist · 26-07-2017 08:01PM

What gets me is I can't buy two packets of Lemsip in Tesco but there's no law stopping someone from buying a trolley full of Dutch Gold.

....... · 26-07-2017 08:03PM

This post has been deleted.

Bruthal · 26-07-2017 08:24PM

aaronjumper wrote: »

I suppose we'll have to move all of the things that could potentially harm people out to that rain forest too.
Clearly it's the only reasonable solution.

Forest for the trees

Bar serving an alcoholic

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