Stormont power sharing talks

Red_Wake · 26-07-2017 01:11PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

Irish, as a taught subject in secondary school, is atrocious. I honestly feel if it was taught as a foreign language[similiar to how french is taught], it would be both more enjoyable, and the students would come out with a better standard of Irish.

The Irish education won't make you a gaeilgeoir, so should not be counted as an advantage for explaining how two adults have such different standards of Irish. When it comes down to it, Leo made the effort to learn the language[admittedly there was a practical element of it for him with the irish language debates], and the two lads didn't.

Your argument amounts to,there shouldn't be an Irish language act because two people,one of whom is dead don't speak it to an acceptable level for you??

Or what exactly is the exact point your attempting to put across

(If twas me,I'd gladly make all tds and civil servants compulsory learn Irish,)

My point is, claiming the irish language is a barrier to forming a government rings hollow when the individual in question won't even learn it themselves.

tomwaterford · 26-07-2017 01:18PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

My point is, claiming the irish language is a barrier to forming a government rings hollow when the individual in question won't even learn it themselves.

I think your equating learning Irish language and having an Irish language act

(Which the dup agreed to,they done everything to block)

It's just a symptom of the broader contempt Irish culture and nationlism is held with by the dup..,...signed up to an agreement añd proceed to play the rules to block/undermine the very spirit of that agreement

For even a simplistic view,when after the euros someone put forward a motion to coñgratulate both Ireland and the north on their performances

Nothing too unreasonable, they point blank refused unless England were included (who even by their standards had a woeful tournament)..,..this is mindset your up againest

FrancieBrady · 26-07-2017 01:20PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

My point is, claiming the irish language is a barrier to forming a government rings hollow when the individual in question won't even learn it themselves.

Why?

Women's rights could be a barrier, would the person have to be a woman to object?

The issue here is not the merits or demerits of Irish, but the continued blocking of agreed clauses in an agreement the DUP were party to.
That they have chosen to cherrypick the bits they don't like since the GFA has now come to a head after years of frustration.

Are they correct to do this ( continually row back on agreed provisions and the availability of other rights that everyone 'normally' has on these islands)in your opinion?

*I am not interested in your opinion of Irish btw.

Thomas__ · 26-07-2017 01:38PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

That´s already the case, when you apply for a job in the civil service, you have to know Irish. But for TDs, it won´t work unless the majority of the TDs would start to debate in Irish only. I can´t imagine this would ever happen.

Tbf I think you're getting paid by the state, it's not unreasonable to expect you to learn irish

Naturally, one who works for the Irish State is required to have Irish in his professional credentials.

Chips Lovell · 26-07-2017 01:59PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

That´s already the case, when you apply for a job in the civil service, you have to know Irish.

That's no longer the case. If I recall correctly, it was abolished in 1975 with the exception of jobs that needed Irish speakers. I think they still give bonus points for knowledge of Irish though.

Thomas__ · 26-07-2017 02:06PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

That´s already the case, when you apply for a job in the civil service, you have to know Irish.

That's no longer the case. If I recall correctly, it was abolished in 1975 with the exception of jobs that needed Irish speakers. I think they still give bonus points for knowledge of Irish though.

I didn´t know that. In regards of the Irish Constitution, it´d be natural to require knowledge in Irish language from applicants for becoming a civil servant.

Thomas__ · 26-07-2017 02:45PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

My point is, claiming the irish language is a barrier to forming a government rings hollow when the individual in question won't even learn it themselves.

Why?

Women's rights could be a barrier, would the person have to be a woman to object?

The issue here is not the merits or demerits of Irish, but the continued blocking of agreed clauses in an agreement the DUP were party to.
That they have chosen to cherrypick the bits they don't like since the GFA has now come to a head after years of frustration.

Are they correct to do this ( continually row back on agreed provisions and the availability of other rights that everyone 'normally' has on these islands)in your opinion?

*I am not interested in your opinion of Irish btw.

Sums it up very well, the way the DUP is delivering her part in the power sharing of the NI govt. In many ways, I see the DUP as being "the" blocking part(y) in many aspects which concerns political and societal progress in NI. Needless to mention the topic of a UI, which is "by nature" a non-starter to them (to put it mildly). By the way, when one thinks about this imaginary UI, Irish would be on the Curriculum on the whole Island, and therefore in NI as well, whether the DUP would like it or not. I think that they know that perfectly well which might be one of the many reasons why they are against a UI (with remaining British is of course at the top of all).

Chips Lovell · 26-07-2017 02:49PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

I didn´t know that. In regards of the Irish Constitution, it´d be natural to require knowledge in Irish language from applicants for becoming a civil servant.

I don't think that rule has ever been challenged. Would make an interesting case if it was.

blanch152 · 26-07-2017 03:15PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

Sums it up very well, the way the DUP is delivering her part in the power sharing of the NI govt. In many ways, I see the DUP as being "the" blocking part(y) in many aspects which concerns political and societal progress in NI. Needless to mention the topic of a UI, which is "by nature" a non-starter to them (to put it mildly). By the way, when one thinks about this imaginary UI, Irish would be on the Curriculum on the whole Island, and therefore in NI as well, whether the DUP would like it or not. I think that they know that perfectly well which might be one of the many reasons why they are against a UI (with remaining British is of course at the top of all).

In a united Ireland, compulsory Irish for the Leaving Certificate would have to go, entry requirements for a second language in college would also have to go, preferential treatment for Irish in the civil service would also have to go.

These are the types of things that would inevitably be required in order to reassure Unionists about their future. It is ironic that uniting the island would inevitably lead to further Anglisation.

blanch152 · 26-07-2017 03:16PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

That´s already the case, when you apply for a job in the civil service, you have to know Irish. But for TDs, it won´t work unless the majority of the TDs would start to debate in Irish only. I can´t imagine this would ever happen.

tomwaterford wrote: »

Tbf I think you're getting paid by the state, it's not unreasonable to expect you to learn irish

In nearly 20 years as a civil and public servant before I left, I never used a word of Irish.

FrancieBrady · 26-07-2017 03:30PM

blanch152 wrote: »

In a united Ireland, compulsory Irish for the Leaving Certificate would have to go, entry requirements for a second language in college would also have to go, preferential treatment for Irish in the civil service would also have to go.

These are the types of things that would inevitably be required in order to reassure Unionists about their future. It is ironic that uniting the island would inevitably lead to further Anglisation.

Yes, there would have to be legislation and acts that ensure parity of esteem and that respect identity. No big deal.

Red_Wake · 26-07-2017 03:54PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

In a united Ireland, compulsory Irish for the Leaving Certificate would have to go, entry requirements for a second language in college would also have to go, preferential treatment for Irish in the civil service would also have to go.

These are the types of things that would inevitably be required in order to reassure Unionists about their future. It is ironic that uniting the island would inevitably lead to further Anglisation.

Yes, there would have to be legislation and acts that ensure parity of esteem and that respect identity. No big deal.

Even if those acts involve Ulster Scots?

Professor Moriarty · 26-07-2017 04:01PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Even if those acts involve Ulster Scots?

Yes. Ulster Scots should be afforded the same esteem as Shelta. Even if Shelta is more distinct and more widely spoken than Ulster Scots.

FrancieBrady · 26-07-2017 04:03PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Even if those acts involve Ulster Scots?

If that is what has been agreed then - yes.

Blocking agreements (setting up roadblocks like the 'Ulster Scots' one) is the core reason as to why the Stormont executive has collapsed.

Red_Wake · 26-07-2017 04:11PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

Even if those acts involve Ulster Scots?

Yes. Ulster Scots should be afforded the same esteem as Shelta. Even if Shelta is more distinct and more widely spoken than Ulster Scots.

But not Irish I assume, seeing as you're not using it in your example?

Professor Moriarty · 26-07-2017 04:22PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

But not Irish I assume, seeing as you're not using it in your example?

Oh no. Irish is an ancient and distinct language. Shelta and Ulster Scots are dialects though Shelta would have more claims to being a language.

A Little Pony · 26-07-2017 05:42PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

You see Irish isn't sectarian. It was spoken by both sides a century ago. It would be a great way to build bridges across communities.

In fact, many of the stalwarts of the Gaelic Revival and other Irish cultural revivals were wealthy Protestants.

But you can't compare maintaining and promoting one of Europe's most ancient languages with aggressive bigotry and sectarianism. Or a dialect. To do so insults your neighbour and simply exposes frightened and biased thinking. The rest of the world is casting Unionism adrift. The Tory/DUP temporary little arrangement will be dropped soon As the UK sunders further, English/Scottish/Welsh politicians will do what is best for their electorate.

Unionists who think that England will care about them are deluded. For its own sake, Unionism should think about who will be its friend in the future. Protestant ascendancy is over. Paranoid sulking and sectarianism won't bring it back. It's time to grow up.

So much paranoia in this post, as if the world gives a sh*t about this part of the world or Unionism or takes any notice of the politics of NI at all. Don't be so naive or disingenuous to think otherwise.

Professor Moriarty · 26-07-2017 05:55PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

So much paranoia in this post, as if the world gives a sh*t about this part of the world or Unionism or takes any notice of the politics of NI at all. Don't be so naive or disingenuous to think otherwise.

Exactly my point. Once the Tories ditch Unionism, as they will, Unionists will find themselves friendless. The rest of the world doesn't understand Unionism and doesn't care.

A Little Pony · 26-07-2017 06:01PM

The last number of pages reading back on them is really funny and full of so much fear for 'The Prod'. From where I live I don't recognize these stereotypes of Ulster Unionists. It really is bizarre. Anyone actually from NI on here?

A Little Pony · 26-07-2017 06:03PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

So much paranoia in this post, as if the world gives a sh*t about this part of the world or Unionism or takes any notice of the politics of NI at all. Don't be so naive or disingenuous to think otherwise.

Exactly my point. Once the Tories ditch Unionism, as they will, Unionists will find themselves friendless. The rest of the world doesn't understand Unionism and doesn't care.

The Tories and Unionism have never really been friends, historically you will see that going back to Carson. And what you say has absolutely no relevance on anything anyway because Labour has worked in Parliament on votes with Unionist politicians.

Professor Moriarty · 26-07-2017 06:04PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The last number of pages reading back on them is really funny and full of so much fear for 'The Prod'. From where I live I don't recognize these stereotypes of Ulster Unionists. It really is bizarre. Anyone actually from NI on here?

I don't think it's fear. More frustration than anything else.

Junkyard Tom · 26-07-2017 06:08PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

so much fear for 'The Prod'.

Where?

There aren't too many God-fearing church-goers in the north regardless of what religion they were raised in.

Professor Moriarty · 26-07-2017 06:14PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The Tories and Unionism have never really been friends, historically you will see that going back to Carson. And what you say has absolutely no relevance on anything anyway because Labour has worked in Parliament on votes with Unionist politicians.

Hmmm. So the Tories should change their name from the Conservative and Unionist Party? Corbyn is the current leader of the Labour party. What do you think his opinion of Unionism is?

FrancieBrady · 26-07-2017 06:29PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The last number of pages reading back on them is really funny and full of so much fear for 'The Prod'. From where I live I don't recognize these stereotypes of Ulster Unionists. It really is bizarre. Anyone actually from NI on here?

Have the DUP been solely responsible for blocking legislation that would ensure cultural and social rights that are enjoyed by every other citizen of these islands?

The answer to that (the only answer) tells us all we need to know.

A Little Pony · 26-07-2017 07:32PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The last number of pages reading back on them is really funny and full of so much fear for 'The Prod'. From where I live I don't recognize these stereotypes of Ulster Unionists. It really is bizarre. Anyone actually from NI on here?

Have the DUP been solely responsible for blocking legislation that would ensure cultural and social rights that are enjoyed by every other citizen of these islands?

The answer to that (the only answer) tells us all we need to know.

No because the DUP want an Ulster Scots act alongside an Irish language act. It's about each side getting something. Which is why the executive will not be back any time soon if ever again.

FrancieBrady · 26-07-2017 07:34PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

No because the DUP want an Ulster Scots act alongside an Irish language act. It's about each side getting something. Which is why the executive will not be back any time soon if ever again.

Let's ask the question again:

Have the DUP been solely responsible for blocking legislation that would ensure cultural and social rights that are enjoyed by every other citizen of these islands?

Professor Moriarty · 26-07-2017 07:39PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

No because the DUP want an Ulster Scots act alongside an Irish language act. It's about each side getting something. Which is why the executive will not be back any time soon if ever again.

There's the problem in a nutshell. Rather than acquiesce in the spirit of reconciliation, people disingenuously equate Irish and Ulster Scots. It's such a petty attitude to take.

steddyeddy · 26-07-2017 08:08PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The last number of pages reading back on them is really funny and full of so much fear for 'The Prod'. From where I live I don't recognize these stereotypes of Ulster Unionists. It really is bizarre. Anyone actually from NI on here?

Ulster unionists are not representative of prods. They make up the vast vast minority.

blanch152 · 26-07-2017 10:35PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There's the problem in a nutshell. Rather than acquiesce in the spirit of reconciliation, people disingenuously equate Irish and Ulster Scots. It's such a petty attitude to take.

It could equally be argued that the refusal to entertain a Minority Languages Act is petty.

FrancieBrady · 26-07-2017 10:51PM

blanch152 wrote: »

It could equally be argued that the refusal to entertain a Minority Languages Act is petty.

A Language Act is already agreed. The executive has collapsed because a roadblock was placed in front of that becoming legislation and many other roadblocks in front of other legislation too.

Nobody else cherrypicked what they didn't like out of agreements including the GFA.
I posted a year or more ago about this potentially happening (the GFA stagnating) and it has happened. It has been coming a long time.

What solution does a 'constitutional nationalist' have that doesn't involve one side acquiescing again? Serious question.

Stormont power sharing talks

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