Dun Laoghaire Rathdown speed limits.

NUTLEY BOY · 05-07-2017 10:21am #1

Just be aware that with effect from yesterday - 4 July 2017 - many roads within the DLRCC area are now 30 kmh speed limited.

Link http://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/news/public-notices-press-releases/introduction-30-kmh-special-speed-limit-residential-housing.

Road safety, Europeans do it, statistics, blah blah blah..... We had to drive to the darkest interior of Mount Merrion yesterday and for the life of me I just cannot see how 30 kmh versus 50 kmh could really make any difference on a lot of those roads given that they are wide, in good order and are not used as childrens' playgrounds.

This may be progress but not much progress for anyone driving a car :rolleyes:

schemingbohemia · 05-07-2017 2:26pm

Maybe if you were hit by a car driving at 30km/h you might feel the difference that an impact at 50km/h would have. Most pedestrians and cyclists survive at those speeds, not so many at 50km/h and those that do usually have life changing injuries.
You must have gone through a lot of back-roads on your way to Mount Merrion to have hit 30km/h all the way.

Seaswimmer · 05-07-2017 2:49pm

Looking at some of the roads listed its hard to see how it would even be possible to get near 30 km/h on them. Lots of short cul de sacs and very small estates.

I don't see a single major road on it so I cant see it being a big problem.

schemingbohemia · 05-07-2017 5:08pm

Delighted that Hyde Road has been reduced. With all the dodgy parking along there (not illegal, just unsafe) and particularly with all the kids attending Cuala/Dalkey United 50km/h was too much.

NUTLEY BOY · 06-07-2017 10:53am

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Maybe if you were hit by a car driving at 30km/h you might feel the difference that an impact at 50km/h would have. Most pedestrians and cyclists survive at those speeds, not so many at 50km/h and those that do usually have life changing injuries.
You must have gone through a lot of back-roads on your way to Mount Merrion to have hit 30km/h all the way.

I am actually very well aware of the outcomes of car -v pedestrian scenarios over the years.

Your argument is based on the typical and correct assumption of what happens when a pedestrian is hit. However, in the context of road safety, this argument takes no account of the probability of being hit which or the concept of risk. The concept of risk seems to have been stood on it's head in the name of health and safety.

What are the risks of a pedestrian being hit in main street Dun Laoghaire if the limit was 50 kmh. I would say that there was a good chance of being hit and a slower limit is fully justified where cars and pedestrians operate in what is virtually a shared space and at close quarters.

What is the likelihood of a similar collision taking place on The Rise, Mount Merrion with a speed limit of 50 kmh ? Given all the characteristics of that road a very low probability I would suggest yet it is now 30 kmh. At the top end of The Rise you enter Trees Road which has a lot more traffic on it yet the limit there is 50kmh.

UrbanFox · 06-07-2017 10:58am

Do I take it that these limits were probably suggested by the council and voted in to law by the councillors ?

If so, do we know which councillors voted and how they voted ?

AnnaStezia · 06-07-2017 11:28am

I was nearly caught out by one these new limits as I was turning in to Belgrave Square from Seapoint on Tuesday. Saw the 30 kmh sign just in time :eek:

Are these limits here to stay or are they are they on a trial basis ?

Came down Woodbine Road (opposite UCD) yesterday to be met by a 30 kmh sign. When I get part of the way down the same road I meet a 50 kmh sign ? Which is it ?

ted1 · 06-07-2017 2:30pm

UrbanFox wrote: »

Do I take it that these limits were probably suggested by the council and voted in to law by the councillors ?

If so, do we know which councillors voted and how they voted ?

There was an open consultation for people to comment on.

To late to complain now.

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/transportation/30-km-h-speed-limit-in-residential-estates-review/

No point chasing cllrs if it didn't go anything about it yourself.

JayRoc · 06-07-2017 3:50pm

I've passed three cul-de-sacs off my road where these new 30kph signs have just been unveiled, it's hilarious.

You'd almost think it was a wind-up. The roads in question are maybe four or five cottages per side, 30m long at the most from beginning to a brick wall.

JayRoc · 06-07-2017 4:48pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Presumably the new signs say Km/h?

It means the same thing, no? I'm not with you

monument · 06-07-2017 8:36pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Presumably the new signs say Km/h?

Don't nitpicking like this -- thanks. Both mean the same thing and it's irrelevant which one people use on here.

-- moderator

Victor · 06-07-2017 8:38pm

the slower you travel, the greater amount of time each party has of avoiding the collision.

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

What is the likelihood of a similar collision taking place on The Rise, Mount Merrion with a speed limit of 50 kmh ?

Higher than the likelihood of a similar collision taking place if Mount Merrion with a speed limit of 50 km/h.

ted1 · 06-07-2017 11:42pm

Victor wrote: »

the slower you travel, the greater amount of time each party has of avoiding the collision.

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

What is the likelihood of a similar collision taking place on The Rise, Mount Merrion with a speed limit of 50 kmh ?

Higher than the likelihood of a similar collision taking place if Mount Merrion with a speed limit of 50 km/h.

Your also more than likely to walk survive being hit at 30km

Bottom line is at 30 a 10km journey will take 20 minutes, at 50 it'll take 12 minutes

But you'll be stuck at lights etc and won't always be travelling at 50 so those 8 minutes will really be only a difference of 3-5 minutes.
Which is worth saving lifes

Tarabuses · 07-07-2017 11:28am

ted1 wrote: »

There was an open consultation for people to comment on.

To late to complain now.

https://dlrcoco.citizenspace.com/transportation/30-km-h-speed-limit-in-residential-estates-review/

No point chasing cllrs if it didn't go anything about it yourself.

Was this consultation process widely publicised?

Victor · 07-07-2017 2:09pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

Was this consultation process widely publicised?

Newspaper ads, website, notices at council office. I suspect there were also news articles.

NUTLEY BOY · 08-07-2017 2:28pm

AnnaStezia wrote: »

I was nearly caught out by one these new limits as I was turning in to Belgrave Square from Seapoint on Tuesday. Saw the 30 kmh sign just in time :eek:

Are these limits here to stay or are they are they on a trial basis ?

Came down Woodbine Road (opposite UCD) yesterday to be met by a 30 kmh sign. When I get part of the way down the same road I meet a 50 kmh sign ? Which is it ?

The 50 kph signs have now been replaced with 30 kph so Woodbine Road is now 30 along it's entire length.

Tarabuses · 10-07-2017 8:33pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

Was this consultation process widely publicised?

Victor wrote: »

Newspaper ads, website, notices at council office. I suspect there were also news articles.

And has the implementation been similarly publicised? If it wasn't for this thread I would know nothing about this change.

Victor · 11-07-2017 3:02am

Tarabuses wrote: »

And has the implementation been similarly publicised? If it wasn't for this thread I would know nothing about this change.

They're putting up hundreds of signs!

https://twitter.com/dlrcc/status/880443241983868928

http://www.roebuckresidents.com/new-30kph-speed-limit/

http://www.dublinpeople.com/news/southside/articles/2017/06/29/4142163-council-rolls-out-new-30kmh-speed-limits/

http://shaybrennan.ie/reduced-speed-limits-in-residential-estates/

Tarabuses · 11-07-2017 12:47pm

Victor wrote: »

They're putting up hundreds of signs!

https://twitter.com/dlrcc/status/880443241983868928

http://www.roebuckresidents.com/new-30kph-speed-limit/

http://www.dublinpeople.com/news/southside/articles/2017/06/29/4142163-council-rolls-out-new-30kmh-speed-limits/

http://shaybrennan.ie/reduced-speed-limits-in-residential-estates/

I know they have put up signs, although smaller than other speed limit signs. I have seen them. But was this publicised in any way other than social media?

Tarabuses · 11-07-2017 12:50pm

Victor wrote: »

They're putting up hundreds of signs!

https://twitter.com/dlrcc/status/880443241983868928

http://www.roebuckresidents.com/new-30kph-speed-limit/

http://www.dublinpeople.com/news/southside/articles/2017/06/29/4142163-council-rolls-out-new-30kmh-speed-limits/

http://shaybrennan.ie/reduced-speed-limits-in-residential-estates/

I know they have put up signs, although smaller than other speed limit signs. I have seen them but not until after I had been aletreted here. Was this publicised in any way other than social media?

LXFlyer · 11-07-2017 1:06pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

I know they have put up signs, although smaller than other speed limit signs. I have seen them but not until after I had been aletreted here. Was this publicised in any way other than social media?

There would have been official notices in the national newspapers and on the council website.

Beyond that, unless the media picks up on it, that's basically how these things work.

Always worth casting your eye on the council website on a regular basis.

Elmer Blooker · 11-07-2017 1:38pm

Does anyone seriously think there will prosecutions and penalty points for doing 35kph in a 30kph zone?
I will tell you what DCC has done on my side of town - first they install ramps that are as flat as pancakes and are designed to do nothing, then they put up 30kph speed limit signs - the result: dangerous driving and cars doing up to 50Mph through 100% residential areas.
An Irish joke!!

josip · 11-07-2017 10:52pm

DLR chose these roads, not because they are the ones most in need of a 30kph limit, but because they are the ones where people already drive reasonably close to 30kph and there is a higher chance of the new speed limit being adhered to, than in an estate with kids where people regularly do 50kph for example.

Presumably this will allow the council to advertise a higher compliance with the new limits, than if they had tried to target the areas that needed it more.

patrickbrophy18 · 11-07-2017 11:05pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Delighted that Hyde Road has been reduced. With all the dodgy parking along there (not illegal, just unsafe) and particularly with all the kids attending Cuala/Dalkey United 50km/h was too much.

I'm not too sure about Hyde Road for the following reasons:

It's one of the main arterial routes radiating outward from the roundabout (or square-about as it is jokingly referred to).:D
While there is decent chunk of the road adjacent to Cuala/Dalkey United Football Club, it shouldn't dictate speeds for the whole length.
Having tried it at 30 KM/H a few days ago, I had a car tailgating me to speed up with another car in tow.:eek:
Short of installing static speed cameras at key points on the road or speed ramps, I cannot see how else this could be enforced. Then again, with the amount of cars parked on the road, it creates impromptu chicanes. So, it is partially enforceable.

Aside from that, I do agree with the rest of the roads listed. You can't even reach 20 on some of them anyway.
So, they might as well put the foot down (or half-way in this case

).

Grahamer666 · 12-07-2017 2:17pm

My road is 30km/h though not in Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown. It's still treated as a race track and always will be as no one is going to enforce it.

Tarabuses · 13-07-2017 8:01pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

I know they have put up signs, although smaller than other speed limit signs. I have seen them but not until after I had been aletreted here. Was this publicised in any way other than social media?

lxflyer wrote: »

There would have been official notices in the national newspapers and on the council website.

Beyond that, unless the media picks up on it, that's basically how these things work.

Always worth casting your eye on the council website on a regular basis.

The DLR Times has now arrived and does have a story about the new speed limit.

Unfortunately the DLRC website is not on my list of favourite websites

.

tabbey · 13-07-2017 8:25pm

The list of thoroughfares subject to this new limit is almost 100% of DLR roads. It would be simpler to list those where 50km/h or more is permitted.

The chances of any prosecution for driving at 40 km/h is low, however perhaps a few will be fined for doing 50km/h. These motorists probably did 60-70km/h previously, so there will be some reduction in typical speeds, thus improving safety.

Incidentally there are omissions from the list, where few people would have driven much more than 30km/h anyway.

josip · 13-07-2017 10:13pm

tabbey wrote: »

The list of thoroughfares subject to this new limit is almost 100% of DLR roads. It would be simpler to list those where 50km/h or more is permitted.

The chances of any prosecution for driving at 40 km/h is low, however perhaps a few will be fined for doing 50km/h. These motorists probably did 60-70km/h previously, so there will be some reduction in typical speeds, thus improving safety.

Incidentally there are omissions from the list, where few people would have driven much more than 30km/h anyway.

Anecdotally I'd disagree.
I've been trying to get DLR to do something to reduce traffic speeds in our estate with no success, especially beside the green where kids of all ages play and have all the road smarts of normal kids, ~0.
The local councillor told me last year that our estate would not be reduced from 50kph to 30kph.
They did a speed survey that showed the speed (I think 85th percentile?) of drivers to be too high for a 30kph limit to be effective and they would instead be changing other estates/roads to 30 where the surveyed speed was lower and thus more likely to be (already) observed :rolleyes:

magicbastarder · 13-07-2017 11:08pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

The DLR Times has now arrived and does have a story about the new speed limit.

Unfortunately the DLRC website is not on my list of favourite websites .

a little weird to complain about not being 'notified' when you ignore the most obvious source of the info?

to be fair, they did leave signs up all over the area, on the affected roads.

Tarabuses · 15-07-2017 8:12pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

a little weird to complain about not being 'notified' when you ignore the most obvious source of the info?

to be fair, they did leave signs up all over the area, on the affected roads.

I'm sorry but I do not consider the DLR website as the most obvious source since it is not a website that I am inclined to visit.

Were these signs on the affected roads ones that could be read from a moving vehicle?

coylemj · 16-07-2017 12:28am

josip wrote: »

They did a speed survey that showed the speed (I think 85th percentile?) of drivers to be too high for a 30kph limit to be effective and they would instead be changing other estates/roads to 30 where the surveyed speed was lower and thus more likely to be (already) observed :rolleyes:

That is completely bizarre.

'We can't slap a 30 kph limit on your estate, we measured the average speeds last week and they were far too high!'

All they're doing is affirming current practice, regardless of whether those speeds are appropriate for that street or not.

magicbastarder · 16-07-2017 12:50am

Tarabuses wrote: »

I'm sorry but I do not consider the DLR website as the most obvious source since it is not a website that I am inclined to visit.

i am trying to think of a coherent response to this but am failing. i am unable to engage with this lack of logic.

josip · 16-07-2017 1:22pm

coylemj wrote: »

That is completely bizarre.

'We can't slap a 30 kph limit on your estate, we measured the average speeds last week and they were far too high!'

All they're doing is affirming current practice, regardless of whether those speeds are appropriate for that street or not.

Yes, I was a bit surprised, not just at the policy, but that it is openly acknowledged by DLR and the councillors.

Having looked at the Powerpoint that outlined the rationale originally, I asked for clarification.

Hi <Councillor>,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from my reading of the PowerPoint presentation the approach seems to have been:
"In the absence of any significant funding, we chose the areas that are most likely to comply with a 30kph sign.
Our experience shows that those already travelling around that speed are most likely to comply"

The implication being that areas with high speed traffic most in need of this measure were excluded because they wouldn't obey the signs?

My above interpretation must be incorrect and I look forward to being put right on the rationale.

The response I received was,

Further to your e-mails, I would think you are reading the PowerPoint presentation correctly. I raised your observation/question when we discussed the report. Most of the representations I have received regarding speeding/ramps are in the areas/locations, which will not be included in this scheme. Nearly all the areas/locations included in the scheme have no speeding issues.

That last line sums it up.
'tis a great little country.

Elmer Blooker · 16-07-2017 1:55pm

Grahamer666 wrote: »

My road is 30km/h though not in Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown. It's still treated as a race track and always will be as no one is going to enforce it.

Best post in this thread imo.
I don't even know why this 30kph is being seriously discussed here, its only a gimmick, a public stunt by whatever council you care to mention.
This morning I witnessed a car doing at least 60Mph OVER a so called speed bump in a residential 30kph zone. Nothing can be taken seriously in this joke of a country.

Victor · 16-07-2017 2:03pm

josip wrote: »

Having looked at the Powerpoint

Is there a link for this?

josip · 16-07-2017 2:19pm

Victor wrote: »

Is there a link for this?

I don't have links for them in the public domain, although I expect that they're not confidential.
They were presented at the February 2nd, 2015 Dun Laoghaire Area Committee on Transportation meeting.
As far as I know all minutes, submissions are available on the internet?

This I think, is the guiding excerpt which says no to bother lowering the speed limit, if people are driving too far above it.

Which is not that objectionable if the council put in place the alternative measures it recommends.
But DLR claim no money to do anything practical.

(Update)
Here's the document the excerpt above is taken from
http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/node/add/content-publication/Guidelines%20for%20the%20Application%20of%20Special%20Speed%20Limits.pdf

magicbastarder · 16-07-2017 3:00pm

josip wrote: »

That last line sums it up.
'tis a great little country.

they have no speeding issues at 50km/h, surely?
the point of this is not to catch people speeding, but to slow people down in estates. just because they had no issues with people speeding (presumably at the previous speed limit) has no bearing on whether lowering the speed limit is a good idea.

josip · 16-07-2017 3:12pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

they have no speeding issues at 50km/h, surely?
the point of this is not to catch people speeding, but to slow people down in estates. just because they had no issues with people speeding (presumably at the previous speed limit) has no bearing on whether lowering the speed limit is a good idea.

I'm not sure I understand you fully.
I agree that the point is not to catch people speeding but to slow people down.
But they're not slowing people down.
They're applying the speed limit to estates where people were already driving at or near the new 30kp/h, and not where people were driving considerably faster.
So very few people will actually be slowed down

magicbastarder · 16-07-2017 3:27pm

to elaborate - the councillor said there was no history of speeding in the estates in question - my assumption (which may be incorrect) is that he is referring to estates which *had* a 50km/h limit, and that there was no issue with speeding at the 50km/h limit? i.e. i have assumed that the 30km/h limits have not been in long enough for figures to be available.

btw, i'm taking this separately from the issue where they are not applying a lower limit in areas which *do* have a history of speeding, lest there be any confusion.

magicbastarder · 16-07-2017 3:32pm

also, may be worth mentioning that i have heard an argument forwarded that regardless of enforcement, the signs may reduce average speeds in estates - i.e. the sort of motorist willing to do 60 in a 50 zone may do 45 or 50 in a 30 zone, so even if they still break the limit by the same or a larger margin, they'll still be going slower - and dropping from 60 to 50 means a stopping distance of 5m-10m less.

josip · 16-07-2017 4:06pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

to elaborate - the councillor said there was no history of speeding in the estates in question - my assumption (which may be incorrect) is that he is referring to estates which *had* a 50km/h limit, and that there was no issue with speeding at the 50km/h limit? i.e. i have assumed that the 30km/h limits have not been in long enough for figures to be available.

btw, i'm taking this separately from the issue where they are not applying a lower limit in areas which *do* have a history of speeding, lest there be any confusion.

My interpretation of what the councillor meant by "speeding issues" was where locals had asked for measures to reduce the speed of cars in areas where they felt it was excessive even though that speed may have been within the limits.
Not that the car's measured speed was exceeding the speed limit at the time.

This was the issue I had previously raised with the councillor in respect of our estate.
Probably very few cars drive faster than the 50 kp/h limit, but many cars drive 40+ and considering the poor lines of sight around the green due to parked cars and kids running about, anything above 35 seems unsafe to me.

zom · 20-07-2017 11:50am

They are bunch of utter incompetent nutters - my mate lives in the DLR, residential area with slightly industrialised neighbourhood. His street got speed humps years ago but no 30kmh limit from recent decision. When he went and asked them why, they told him with humps already there, there is no need for speed limit :-0.
Oh how he wishes he got it recorded, but unfortunately he didn't.

PS - of course there are lot of cars speed driving over these humps, especially commercial "white" vans, some of them sparks scrapping on the road surface and I bet 30kph is not going to change it.

Dun Laoghaire Rathdown speed limits.

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