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Toddler stabbed to death in Dublin

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Comments

  • #92
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    Bushmanpm wrote: »
    If there IS a link between mental health and infanticide by mothers, wouldn't THAT be worth looking into? Y'know, to try and prevent/limit reoccurrences?
    I don't see how it's "...gender bashing..." if it actually HELPS mothers and children in the future and as for "...agenda pushing..."??? Personally I think that YOU should be ashamed and have some decency for any possible future victims who could be helped to avoid such tragedies, for both the child AND the mother.

    I think while commendable your point doesn't go far enough. In many cases of child murder by either parent there seems to be something else going on- this isnt simply a crime of revenge or cruelty in many cases as far as i can tell. Whether its long term mental illness or shorter term issues brought on by some change in circumstances we should probably be looking at how to provide support to prevent this happening, including more open conversations about mental health and coping for both men and women.

    One of the saddest points in the articles i linked is that many of the perpetrators felt it was done for the childrens own good, and thats not a natural mindset.


  • #93
    Ann_Landers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Ann_Landers


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    its murder

    Maybe. Could be manslaughter either. I'm keeping an open mind but what I find strange is that the guards seem to have already made up theirs.


  • #94
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,826 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Ann_Landers wrote: »
    Maybe. Could be manslaughter either. I'm keeping an open mind but what I find strange is that the guards seem to have already made up theirs.

    They might know more then you?

    EVENFLOW



  • #95
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    its murder

    Nobody is saying it isn't murder, in fact, Gardai have launched a murder probe and are waiting to question the mother in relation to what happened, but she's undergoing surgery for her injuries at this moment in time. So let's just wait and see what happens with that.


  • #96
    Nabber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Model reads private messages about her being fat. It get 224 replies on boards.

    Toddler stabbed to death, gets 78 replies.

    Both posted around the same time. Boards going to ****s


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  • #97
    Ann_Landers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Ann_Landers


    The_Kew_Tour wrote: »
    They might know more then you?

    That's obvious. I'm just going by the article that says she hasn't been questioned yet. It seems prudent to reserve judgement until that happens. A toddler has been stabbed to death and they are calling it a personal tragedy. That is odd.


  • #98
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Nabber wrote: »
    Model reads private messages about her being fat. It get 224 replies on boards.

    Toddler stabbed to death, gets 78 replies.

    Not post around the same time. Boards going to ****s

    Why? Its a tragic event, not much to discuss ia there?


  • #99
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,195 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tritium wrote: »
    Whether its long term mental illness or shorter term issues brought on by some change in circumstances we should probably be looking at how to provide support to prevent this happening, including more open conversations about mental health and coping for both men and women.

    One of the saddest points in the articles i linked is that many of the perpetrators felt it was done for the childrens own good, and thats not a natural mindset.



    We need to look at any factors in these cases that may point towards cause or indicators of risk.

    We need a serious conversation about the State's responsibilities towards the children of people with mental health issues.

    Genuinely, 'support' for such individuals should be a secondary concern. Of course, it may not be possible to identify at-risk cases before the fact, but I'm convinced that our current routine of diagnosing the parent/killer afterwards and closing the case as an unavoidable tragedy is a serious dereliction of duty.


  • #100
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ann_Landers wrote: »
    That's obvious. I'm just going by the article that says she hasn't been questioned yet. It seems prudent to reserve judgement until that happens. A toddler has been stabbed to death and they are calling it a personal tragedy. That is odd.

    Personal tragedy is probably garda speak for no one else involved but given a child is dead its a massive understatement and quite disrespectful imho to the deceased.


  • #101
    Ann_Landers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Ann_Landers


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Personal tragedy is probably garda speak for no one else involved but given a child is dead its a massive understatement and quite disrespectful imho to the deceased.

    Agreed, very poor choice of words.


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  • #102
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    Downplaying the relevance of mental illness to what happened in this case would be a crime (if it turns out there were factors in play). This is not to chastise or deflect or anything like that but rather to highlight that people may be suffering from mental illness and they or those around them may not even be aware. As such, unless people are open to discussing their problems and reaching out for help then sometimes terrible tragedies can happen which may have been avoided.

    Obviously in this case we are not yet sure of the circumstances but calling it a "personal tragedy" instead of cold-blooded murder by an evil mother (as it appears to be) is already starting to hint at downplaying the influence of any mental health issues.


  • #103
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    We need to look at any factors in these cases that may point towards cause or indicators of risk.

    We need a serious conversation about the State's responsibilities towards the children of people with mental health issues.

    Genuinely, 'support' for such individuals should be a secondary concern. Of course, it may not be possible to identify at-risk cases before the fact, but I'm convinced that our current routine of diagnosing the parent/killer afterwards and closing the case as an unavoidable tragedy is a serious dereliction of duty.

    I partially agree with your last point. The post event mental illness defence is often too little to late. However that doesnt mean we shouldnt try to catch these cases before they turn into such an awful outcome. It seems, albeit unempirically, remarkably common that some major, possibly traumatic event precedes such crimes

    The worrying thing highlighted in one of the links i posted is how many cases there are where the perpetrator had no history of interaction with mental health services prior to the killing. That implies that some people who needed help werent aware of this or slipped through the cracks- thats something we can look at, and a case where 'support' adds real value so i dont think it can be considered secondary.

    There are of course cases where mental health is just used to justify pure evil, but given how unnatural this crime seems that doesnt sit well with me as a catch all regardless of the perpetrator. Given that im inclined to try to prevent rather than gnash and wail after the event


  • #104
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    "Personal tragedy" is a catch-all term used very frequently because they cannot state it was a murder or manslaughter. They don't even use the word suicide anymore.

    These are all legal terms, so if you use them early you are pre-empting any investigation.

    "Personal tragedy" is not a legal term but appropriately captures the scope of what has occurred while also being a code word for "murder-suicide".


  • #105
    Mutant z
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    The scum who are responsible for this toddlers brutal murder, should spend the rest of their life behind bars.


  • #106
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.


  • #107
    Ann_Landers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Ann_Landers


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

    It's funny, I picture you foaming at the mouth whilst mashing the keyboard in writing the above effluent.


  • #108
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Woman was/is a doctor at a Dublin hospital apparently.


  • #109
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

    Well the mother isn't dead...

    Alan Hawe wasn't reburied either btw, his remains were transported to Glasnevin where he was cremated.


  • #110
    murpho999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,792 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Parents who murder their children should get the heaviest sentences

    Law should not differentiate on this.

    Clearly in this case, the person had severe mental health issues and is mostly likely looking at a very long time in a psychiatric facility.


  • #111
    Ann_Landers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Ann_Landers


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Law should not differentiate on this.

    Clearly in this case, the person had severe mental health issues and is mostly likely looking at a very long time in a psychiatric facility.

    Speculation, really. We don't know if she has mental problems yet.


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  • #112
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,080 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

    This is a disgusting post.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #113
    Ann_Landers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Ann_Landers


    volchitsa wrote: »
    This is a disgusting post.

    I know, it's just a mentality I can't understand. I never want to meet with that mentality in real life, I wouldn't be able to conceal my comtempt. You'd have to wonder if the poster even believes what they write?


  • #114
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,741 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Law should not differentiate on this.

    Clearly in this case, the person had severe mental health issues and is mostly likely looking at a very long time in a psychiatric facility.

    I agree.

    Obviously I know no more than anyone else but mental health issues, and possibly post-partum depression/psychosis may play a role here.


  • #115
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    kylith wrote: »
    I agree.

    Obviously I know no more than anyone else but mental health issues, and possibly post-partum depression/psychosis may play a role here.

    Child was 3 so would be too long after the birth to be postpartum psychosis or depression


  • #116
    jackboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,072 ✭✭✭jackboy


    seamus wrote: »
    "Personal tragedy" is a catch-all term used very frequently because they cannot state it was a murder or manslaughter. They don't even use the word suicide anymore.

    These are all legal terms, so if you use them early you are pre-empting any investigation.

    "Personal tragedy" is not a legal term but appropriately captures the scope of what has occurred while also being a code word for "murder-suicide".
    I wonder is that the real reason. They could use the word 'killing'. I think 'personal tragedy' is used to imply that the killer is not at fault. It is cowardly language to use in my opinion....and very Irish.


  • #117
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,741 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Child was 3 so would be too long after the birth to be postpartum psychosis or depression

    No so. It can take 12 months to recover from (https://www.nct.org.uk/parenting/what-postpartum-psychosis) and around 50% will go on to have another episode, not necessarily after having another child (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/postpartum-psychosis/Pages/Introduction.aspx#outlook).

    As you can see from this graph of a Swedish study (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis#/media/File:Figure_1._Incidence_of_Psychoses_among_Swedish_First-Time_Mothers.png) incidences of psychosis after 18 months are rare, but do occur.


  • #118
    Muir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Muir


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Child was 3 so would be too long after the birth to be postpartum psychosis or depression

    A review from 2014 found that in those not receiving treatment, 30% of people who experience postpartum depression were still depressed up to 3 years after giving birth. Source.


  • #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Klonker wrote: »
    Yeah, let's make this a gender thing :rolleyes: have some cop on for **** sake.
    sugarman wrote: »
    Valid point in fairness and it is a discussion forum.

    You're right, it's a discussion forum; which means we are free to reject such statements and discuss how idiotic they are.

    It's a bit like how freedom of expression necessitates, and does not shield a person, from robust critique.


  • #120
    murpho999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,792 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Ann_Landers wrote: »
    Speculation, really. We don't know if she has mental problems yet.

    I don't think it's speculation to say that a person who kills their own child has mental health issues.


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  • #121
    Ann_Landers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Ann_Landers


    jackboy wrote: »
    I wonder is that the real reason. They could use the word 'killing'. I think 'personal tragedy' is used to imply that the killer is not at fault. It is cowardly language to use in my opinion....and very Irish.

    +1, 'killing' is a good, accurate description.


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