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Child Item

Toddler stabbed to death in Dublin

Love2love

http://www.thejournal.ie/toddler-crumlin-violent-3489568-Jul2017/

Poor kid

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murpho999

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Parents who murder their children should get the heaviest sentences

Law should not differentiate on this.

Clearly in this case, the person had severe mental health issues and is mostly likely looking at a very long time in a psychiatric facility.

January

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

Well the mother isn't dead...

Alan Hawe wasn't reburied either btw, his remains were transported to Glasnevin where he was cremated.

Outlaw Pete

Woman was/is a doctor at a Dublin hospital apparently.

Ann_Landers

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

It's funny, I picture you foaming at the mouth whilst mashing the keyboard in writing the above effluent.

Kidchameleon

I wonder how many of the pitch fork gang who were foaming at the mouth with delight at Alan Hawe's reburial will be happy to see the mother and baby in this tragic case buried seperatly.

Mutant z

The scum who are responsible for this toddlers brutal murder, should spend the rest of their life behind bars.

seamus

"Personal tragedy" is a catch-all term used very frequently because they cannot state it was a murder or manslaughter. They don't even use the word suicide anymore.

These are all legal terms, so if you use them early you are pre-empting any investigation.

"Personal tragedy" is not a legal term but appropriately captures the scope of what has occurred while also being a code word for "murder-suicide".

tritium

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We need to look at any factors in these cases that may point towards cause or indicators of risk.

We need a serious conversation about the State's responsibilities towards the children of people with mental health issues.

Genuinely, 'support' for such individuals should be a secondary concern. Of course, it may not be possible to identify at-risk cases before the fact, but I'm convinced that our current routine of diagnosing the parent/killer afterwards and closing the case as an unavoidable tragedy is a serious dereliction of duty.

I partially agree with your last point. The post event mental illness defence is often too little to late. However that doesnt mean we shouldnt try to catch these cases before they turn into such an awful outcome. It seems, albeit unempirically, remarkably common that some major, possibly traumatic event precedes such crimes

The worrying thing highlighted in one of the links i posted is how many cases there are where the perpetrator had no history of interaction with mental health services prior to the killing. That implies that some people who needed help werent aware of this or slipped through the cracks- thats something we can look at, and a case where 'support' adds real value so i dont think it can be considered secondary.

There are of course cases where mental health is just used to justify pure evil, but given how unnatural this crime seems that doesnt sit well with me as a catch all regardless of the perpetrator. Given that im inclined to try to prevent rather than gnash and wail after the event

Assetbacked

Downplaying the relevance of mental illness to what happened in this case would be a crime (if it turns out there were factors in play). This is not to chastise or deflect or anything like that but rather to highlight that people may be suffering from mental illness and they or those around them may not even be aware. As such, unless people are open to discussing their problems and reaching out for help then sometimes terrible tragedies can happen which may have been avoided.

Obviously in this case we are not yet sure of the circumstances but calling it a "personal tragedy" instead of cold-blooded murder by an evil mother (as it appears to be) is already starting to hint at downplaying the influence of any mental health issues.

Ann_Landers

eviltwin wrote: »

Personal tragedy is probably garda speak for no one else involved but given a child is dead its a massive understatement and quite disrespectful imho to the deceased.

Agreed, very poor choice of words.

eviltwin

Ann_Landers wrote: »

That's obvious. I'm just going by the article that says she hasn't been questioned yet. It seems prudent to reserve judgement until that happens. A toddler has been stabbed to death and they are calling it a personal tragedy. That is odd.

Personal tragedy is probably garda speak for no one else involved but given a child is dead its a massive understatement and quite disrespectful imho to the deceased.

[Deleted User]

tritium wrote: »

Whether its long term mental illness or shorter term issues brought on by some change in circumstances we should probably be looking at how to provide support to prevent this happening, including more open conversations about mental health and coping for both men and women.

One of the saddest points in the articles i linked is that many of the perpetrators felt it was done for the childrens own good, and thats not a natural mindset.

We need to look at any factors in these cases that may point towards cause or indicators of risk.

We need a serious conversation about the State's responsibilities towards the children of people with mental health issues.

Genuinely, 'support' for such individuals should be a secondary concern. Of course, it may not be possible to identify at-risk cases before the fact, but I'm convinced that our current routine of diagnosing the parent/killer afterwards and closing the case as an unavoidable tragedy is a serious dereliction of duty.

eviltwin

Nabber wrote: »

Model reads private messages about her being fat. It get 224 replies on boards.

Toddler stabbed to death, gets 78 replies.

Not post around the same time. Boards going to ****s

Why? Its a tragic event, not much to discuss ia there?

Ann_Landers

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

They might know more then you?

That's obvious. I'm just going by the article that says she hasn't been questioned yet. It seems prudent to reserve judgement until that happens. A toddler has been stabbed to death and they are calling it a personal tragedy. That is odd.

Nabber

Model reads private messages about her being fat. It get 224 replies on boards.

Toddler stabbed to death, gets 78 replies.

Both posted around the same time. Boards going to ****s

January

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

its murder

Nobody is saying it isn't murder, in fact, Gardai have launched a murder probe and are waiting to question the mother in relation to what happened, but she's undergoing surgery for her injuries at this moment in time. So let's just wait and see what happens with that.

The_Kew_Tour

Ann_Landers wrote: »

Maybe. Could be manslaughter either. I'm keeping an open mind but what I find strange is that the guards seem to have already made up theirs.

They might know more then you?

Ann_Landers

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

its murder

Maybe. Could be manslaughter either. I'm keeping an open mind but what I find strange is that the guards seem to have already made up theirs.

tritium

Bushmanpm wrote: »

If there IS a link between mental health and infanticide by mothers, wouldn't THAT be worth looking into? Y'know, to try and prevent/limit reoccurrences?
I don't see how it's "...gender bashing..." if it actually HELPS mothers and children in the future and as for "...agenda pushing..."??? Personally I think that YOU should be ashamed and have some decency for any possible future victims who could be helped to avoid such tragedies, for both the child AND the mother.

I think while commendable your point doesn't go far enough. In many cases of child murder by either parent there seems to be something else going on- this isnt simply a crime of revenge or cruelty in many cases as far as i can tell. Whether its long term mental illness or shorter term issues brought on by some change in circumstances we should probably be looking at how to provide support to prevent this happening, including more open conversations about mental health and coping for both men and women.

One of the saddest points in the articles i linked is that many of the perpetrators felt it was done for the childrens own good, and thats not a natural mindset.

SEPT 23 1989

Ann_Landers wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0711/889269-kimmage-dublin/

Gardaí are treating it as a 'personal tragedy' and are waiting to question the mother. Weird wording.

its murder

Ann_Landers

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0711/889269-kimmage-dublin/

Gardaí are treating it as a 'personal tragedy' and are waiting to question the mother. Weird wording.

tritium

volchitsa wrote: »

Way to go, nothing to say about someone making totally unfounded claims, but complaints about the "wrong" articles being linked to pointing out flaws in that claim. Of course.

Look, I didn't say it wasn't complicated, I said it wasn't a simplistic "men are described as evil, women get the benefit of the assumption that it's not their fault because mental illness". Do your links prove that poster's assertion? If not, you're off topic here.

Youre getting a wee bit too defensive there i think. I tried to add a bit of balance to your link to a daily mail article that frankly plays the same rather simplistic men vs women agenda that you slammed the other poster for, albeit from another perspective. If you looked at any of the links you'd see they hardly endorse either the original point made or indeed your rebuttal posts.

Bushmanpm

Deleted User wrote:

When mothers do it, it's practically a predetermined given that it will end up being put down to mental health reasons and case closed. That's worth questioning.

Omackeral wrote:

No you're gender bashing and agenda pushing for even suggesting questioning it or looking into it. You should be ashamed. I despair. Have some decency.

If there IS a link between mental health and infanticide by mothers, wouldn't THAT be worth looking into? Y'know, to try and prevent/limit reoccurrences?
I don't see how it's "...gender bashing..." if it actually HELPS mothers and children in the future and as for "...agenda pushing..."??? Personally I think that YOU should be ashamed and have some decency for any possible future victims who could be helped to avoid such tragedies, for both the child AND the mother.

Hector Savage

Heartbreaking.

RIP little man.

seamus

BattleCorp wrote: »

I know I'll be castigated for this but I don't believe that people with a mental illness who commit a crime should be treated much differently from anybody else.

....

People shouldn't get light sentences based on them having a mental illness.

It's a conversation for a different thread, but at the base of it you need to examine what it is you're trying to achieve with sentencing at all.

If it's revenge, then sure, punish them just the same.

But otherwise if your aim is to deter others and/or rehabilitate offenders, then treating mentally ill offenders the same as everyone else, won't achieve those aims.

Madam Oblong

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Didn't read all the thread! How do you know that a woman did it?

They are not looking for anyone else in connection with the incident

seamus

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Didn't read all the thread! How do you know that a woman did it?

Supposition. They have a dead child and a critically injured woman, no arrests, and they're not looking for anyone.

So you join the dots and the Gardai strongly believe the mother did it.

Anyway, this is a different matter. A woman who kills a newborn can claim infanticide, which is a lesser charge than murder. That's for a different thread.

You can't claim infanticide for a 3 year old.

evolving_doors

Kidchameleon wrote: »

That woman in England got away scott free after strangling her newbord with her knickers. I doubt the woman in this case will get the proper justice handed to her either

Didn't read all the thread! How do you know that a woman did it?

BattleCorp

I know I'll be castigated for this but I don't believe that people with a mental illness who commit a crime should be treated much differently from anybody else.

If someone with a mental illness kills someone, then I believe they should be tried in court, and if convicted receive the same sentence that everybody else would get for committing that crime. The only difference I would have is that instead of serving their sentence in a prison, that they serve their sentence in a secure hospital where they receive treatment for their illness. And, if at the end of their sentence, if the doctors don't pass them fit to be released, they get kept there until they are either better or else they are never released.

People shouldn't get light sentences based on them having a mental illness.

volchitsa

tritium wrote: »

Actually your research is somewhat flawed-unsurprising if your source is the daily mail. If youd looked a bit deeper you'd find its a much more complex question than the one you've tried to answer

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174580/
https://news.brown.edu/articles/2014/02/filicide
http://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/findings-from-most-in-depth-study-into-uk-parents-who-kill-their-children/
http://www.nhregister.com/general-news/20150613/parents-killing-their-children-is-surprisingly-common-but-difficult-to-understand

Notably the incidence is very much dependent on factors such as age of child. It also ignores the fact that there are psychiatric factors for a significant number of both the men and women who commit such an awful crime, albeit society is somewhat less compassionate to the idea that family breakup can be a devastating trigger for some. That said I'm not surprised that a daily mail article pushing the concept of 'family annihilators' isnt so keen on steering a compassionate course.

As an aside i recall we had a poster on AH banging on with that annihilator nonsense a few months back too, it got short shift from most posters on here.

Way to go, nothing to say about someone making totally unfounded claims, but complaints about the "wrong" articles being linked to pointing out flaws in that claim. Of course.

Look, I didn't say it wasn't complicated, I said it wasn't a simplistic "men are described as evil, women get the benefit of the assumption that it's not their fault because mental illness". Do your links prove that poster's assertion? If not, you're off topic here.