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Did anybody here attend the Rally For Life/repeal the 8th marches in Dublin?

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  • #212
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Syphonax wrote: »
    Im not your "mate" and your question was asked like a two year old, try and be more articulate if thats possible?

    Ha! This question? :D
    Rebekah Strong Archivist wrote: »
    How does abortion in the case of rape work on a practical level?
    Im havent been involved into two many abortion cases and not a lawyer so I dobt I could give yo a full frank defination but common sense would say its not as simple as "I was raped, now wheres my portable baby murdering device".

    So yeah, you haven't thought it through. And now you're being called out and getting abusive. As someone who would really like to see the 8th repealed, please keep talking because you're helping my cause massively. However, I am done talking to you.

    And that's a post quite littered with spelling and punctuation errors seeing as it's criticising me for asking a question like a two year old, just fyi.


  • #213
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Syphonax wrote: »
    Im not your "mate" and your question was asked like a two year old, try and be more articulate if thats possible? Im havent been involved in many abortion cases and not a lawyer so I doubt I could give yo a full frank definition but common sense would say its not as simple as "I was raped, now wheres my portable baby murdering device".


    Ok, here's a little thought experiment -

    1.) How long do you think it takes for a rape accusation to go through the full legal process from initial reporting, investigation, arrest of accused, and finally a trial resulting in a guilty verdict?

    2.) How long does it take for a pregnancy to turn into a baby?


    (Hint: One of these times is significantly longer than the other)

    (I am also not a lawyer btw)


  • #214
    Syphonax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 448 ✭✭Syphonax


    Rebekah Strong Archivist wrote: »
    Ha! This question? :D

    So yeah, you haven't thought it through. And now you're being called out and getting abusive. As someone who would really like to see the 8th repealed, please keep talking because you're helping my cause massively. However, I am done talking to you.

    And that's a post quite littered with spelling and punctuation errors seeing as it's criticising me for asking a question like a two year old, just fyi.

    Thats a good come back, oh no wait its complete inarticulate nonsense. Ive answered your question, shame you didnt like the answer. Shame for you that is. Why you bringing your grammar nazi argument into this? Is that really the best you can do? lol


  • #215
    Syphonax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 448 ✭✭Syphonax


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Ok, here's a little thought experiment -

    1.) How long do you think it takes for a rape accusation to go through the full legal process from initial reporting, investigation, arrest of accused, and finally a trial resulting in a guilty verdict?

    2.) How long does it take for a pregnancy to turn into a baby?


    (Hint: One of these times is significantly longer than the other)

    LOL thanks for the HINT, I was completely unaware with my sarcastic hat on that a court case might last longer than nine months, how enlightening you are.
    Sarcasm hat off.


  • #216
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Syphonax wrote: »
    LOL thanks for the HINT, I was completely unaware with my sarcastic hat on that a court case might last longer than nine months, how enlightening you are.
    Sarcasm hat off.

    OK, great, hurdle one complete!

    Continue the line of enquiry - how then do we legislate to allow for abortion in the case of rape when it is impossible for a rape conviction to have happened within the very limited time limits around abortions?


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  • #217
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    If I thought someone was the same as a rapist or murderer I'd be angry at them, apologies for inferring that.

    Do you think the people who indirectly cause mid term abortions to happen when they could have been early term abortions are facilitating murder? What's your opinion of them is what I'm asking basically.

    And up to 16 weeks is reasonable imo, I have much more respect for arguments that centre on time limits rather than the circumstances of conception. I'm not personally in favour of putting time limits in place in law as I don't believe people just decide to have an abortion casually when they're very far along; I think leaving it as a decision between a woman and a doctor is fine. But I get your opinion.


  • #218
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,713 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Syphonax wrote: »
    Not sure I follow ya, if you're talking about women that were raped before any new legislation was brought in then you're talking about something then didnt exist at the time they were raped and thus has no legal effect on them.

    Ok, I try and explain this as best as I can.
    I think theirs a lot of people who are pro life and pro choice.
    Then theirs these on the fence voters who each side want to attract. On the fence voters are people who don't love the idea or don't hate the idea.
    A lot of these support the idea of abortion in the case of fatal fetal abnormalities.
    They'd also like to see abortion introduced in cases where a woman was raped but they don't want to see every person who wants an abortion just be able to say I was raped and get one.
    Does that make sense?


  • #219
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Ok, I try and explain this as best as I can.
    I think theirs a lot of people who are pro life and pro choice.
    Then theirs these on the fence voters who each side want to attract. On the fence voters are people who don't love the idea or don't hate the idea.
    A lot of these support the idea of abortion in the case of fatal fetal abnormalities.
    They'd also like to see abortion introduced in cases where a woman was raped but they don't want to see every person who wants an abortion just be able to say I was raped and get one.
    Does that make sense?
    I suppose the answer is that there is no way in which the state can make that call as every case is different so we'll need to leave it to the individual and their healthcare professionals to make it.


  • #220
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    B0jangles wrote: »
    OK, great, hurdle one complete!

    Continue the line of enquiry - how then do we legislate to allow for abortion in the case of rape when it is impossible for a rape conviction to have happened within the very limited time limits around abortions?

    Well devils advocate here as I do completely get your point but could it be put into practice that a formal statement has to be made to the garda that a rape has occurred.
    The Garda then have a duty to investigate and if the person making the complaint doesn't aid to their fullest in said investigation you charge them with perverting the course of Justice.

    It would be a very wasteful procedure but it would deter false reporting and whatever about this proposal we really shouldn't treat false reporting of very serious crimes as a nothing thing


  • #221
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,447 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    My 2c...

    If a woman, for whatever personal reason, feels an abortion is the right choice for her, none of my business. Go for it.
    If anybody doesn't want an abortion, for whatever personal reason, none of my business. Don't go for it.

    I'll certainly be voting for choice. Not 'pro abortion'. That's just a silly phrase.

    ;)


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  • #222
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Can you explain it to me a little. If the referendum was just to legalise abortion just in cases of rape. Could you explain to me how it wouldn't be open to everybody who said they were raped?
    If I could I could convince people to vote for the repeal.
    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    They'd also like to see abortion introduced in cases where a woman was raped but they don't want to see every person who wants an abortion just be able to say I was raped and get one.
    Does that make sense?

    Tough question.

    What sort of proof do you think it would take to satisfy these people?


  • #223
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,713 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I suppose the answer is that there is no way in which the state can make that call as every case is different so we'll need to leave it to the individual and their healthcare professionals to make it.

    looks like these people will be voting to keep it so.


  • #224
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,713 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Graham wrote: »
    Tough question.

    What sort of proof do you think it would take to satisfy these people?

    Honestly some magic truth teller that wouldn't allow abortion to people who weren't raped.


  • #225
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    endacl wrote: »
    My 2c...

    If a woman, for whatever personal reason, feels an abortion is the right choice for her, none of my business. Go for it.
    If anybody doesn't want an abortion, for whatever personal reason, none of my business. Don't go for it.

    I'll certainly be voting for choice. Not 'pro abortion'. That's just a silly phrase.

    ;)

    I am sorry that sounds nice but is a meaningless cop out, do you think a woman at 25-7 weeks should be able to terminate her pregnancy by choice, your likely inflicting a life time of suffering on a that child due to being born so prematurely.
    Alternatively you could be arguing that the fetus/childs life should also be terminated by the procedure, however if your arguing this ethically you can't really argue against the idea of infanticide read Alberto Giubilini and Francesco Minerva's paper making this argument.


  • #226
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Honestly some magic truth teller that wouldn't allow abortion to people who weren't raped.

    That's not much of an answer really.

    You obviously think there's some level of proof that 'these people' will accept, you keep bringing it up.

    I'm just curious to know what you think that is.


  • #227
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Well devils advocate here as I do completely get your point but could it be put into practice that a formal statement has to be made to the garda that a rape has occurred.
    The Garda then have a duty to investigate and if the person making the complaint doesn't aid to their fullest in said investigation you charge them with perverting the course of Justice.

    It would be a very wasteful procedure but it would deter false reporting and whatever about this proposal we really shouldn't treat false reporting of very serious crimes as a nothing thing

    It would be a totally pointless procedure which would add another massive layer of stress and anxiety on women who have been raped and are pregnant as a result, and women who are so desperate to not be pregnant that they are willing to lie about being raped to get access to an abortion.

    The second set of women would then bear the additional burden of possibly being charged and convicted of a serious crime (perjury) AND they might also cause some unfortunate man who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time to be suspected of being a rapist. I.E if someone claims to have been raped by an unidentified assailant in a park (to create a plausible story without accusing anyone), and you happen to be seen innocently loitering in the area on CCTV, you could easily fall under suspicion.

    The whole idea of 'abortion for rape cases only' idea falls apart completely once you spend even a couple of minutes thinking about it.


  • #228
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Well devils advocate here as I do completely get your point but could it be put into practice that a formal statement has to be made to the garda that a rape has occurred.
    The Garda then have a duty to investigate and if the person making the complaint doesn't aid to their fullest in said investigation you charge them with perverting the course of Justice.

    It would be a very wasteful procedure but it would deter false reporting and whatever about this proposal we really shouldn't treat false reporting of very serious crimes as a nothing thing


    It could be put into practice but there could be obvious very good reasons why someone who has been raped wouldn't want to make a report. And who's the arbiter of what's aiding to the fullest? And I'd say introducing that scenario would deter genuine reports.

    And best case scenario all that could necessarily still take weeks when time is a huge factor.


  • #229
    Ann_Landers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Ann_Landers


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Having said that, I really don't think holding simultaneous and co-located counter rallies is ever a good idea. Let them have their moment and then try and have an even bigger repeal rally the following week would have been a better strategy IMO.

    There were counter-protestors at the the Repeal march. Not as many but they were there. I don't have a problem with counter-protests myself as long as they remain peaceful!


  • #230
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,713 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Graham wrote: »
    That's not much of an answer really.

    You obviously think there's some level of proof that 'these people' will accept, you keep bringing it up.

    I'm just curious to know what you think that is.

    They want abortion just in cases of rape and fatal fetal abnormalities and no other reasons. If the government can't guarantee this they'll be voting to keep the 8th!
    I want to be able to give the people the proof they need but I can't seem to find it or I don't know how it will be possible.


  • #231
    PressRun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,198 ✭✭✭PressRun


    I don't really know how anyone could be happy leaving things the way they are. Irish women are having abortions, whether anti-choice people want to admit it or not. All the current laws do is sweep it under the carpet and make it harder and less safe for women to procure a procedure they are desperate for and are going to have anyway. You can't stop abortions, you can only stop safe abortions.
    This country has a lot of growing up to do in taking ownership of its problems. The exceptions-based model that some people are advocating doesn't work either, as we've seen from some of the nonsense in the news recently.
    The issue is between a woman and her doctor. Everyone else should mind their own business.


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  • #232
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    They want abortion just in cases of rape and fatal fetal abnormalities and no other reasons. If the government can't guarantee this they'll be voting to keep the 8th!
    I want to be able to give the people the proof they need but I can't seem to find it or I don't know how it will be possible.

    Whatever about FFA the rape thing just isn't possible, they're not going to get that proof. Only option is to try and convince them why that position is going to cause harm.

    There are some very vociferous, vicious pro-lifers around but there are very many people who are either on the fence or just sort of reflexively pro-life, they haven't necessarily thought things like that through. Most people are decent and the current abortion regime in Ireland runs counter to human decency.


  • #233
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    They want abortion just in cases of rape and fatal fetal abnormalities and no other reasons. If the government can't guarantee this they'll be voting to keep the 8th!
    I want to be able to give the people the proof they need but I can't seem to find it or I don't know how it will be possible.

    you keep claiming that if 'these people' are satisfied a woman has been raped they'll allow her to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

    You must think that something will satisfy them, either that or you're asking because you are well aware that nothing will satisfy these people.


  • #234
    Syphonax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 448 ✭✭Syphonax


    B0jangles wrote: »
    OK, great, hurdle one complete!

    Continue the line of enquiry - how then do we legislate to allow for abortion in the case of rape when it is impossible for a rape conviction to have happened within the very limited time limits around abortions?

    Your asking me if I have an answer, I dont. I simply stated the very few instances in which I find abortion permissible, is rape.

    If a woman is raped I would imagine that it can be proven outside the natural timeframe of a court and that the conviction of the man who committed the rape would have have to be fully concluded, only rather that the woman was violated and did not consent, and so the baby could be legitimately terminated with reasonable confidence in that she is telling the truth.


    What would be your opinion of this, or are you just using this as an excuse for full on demand abortion as opposed to just for rape? You sound like you are.


  • #235
    Syphonax
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 448 ✭✭Syphonax


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Ok, I try and explain this as best as I can.
    I think theirs a lot of people who are pro life and pro choice.
    Then theirs these on the fence voters who each side want to attract. On the fence voters are people who don't love the idea or don't hate the idea.
    A lot of these support the idea of abortion in the case of fatal fetal abnormalities.
    They'd also like to see abortion introduced in cases where a woman was raped but they don't want to see every person who wants an abortion just be able to say I was raped and get one.
    Does that make sense?

    Yes, it does.


  • #236
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Syphonax wrote: »
    If a woman is raped I would imagine that it can be proven outside the natural timeframe of a court

    You might be able to help Freshpopcorn out.

    How do you imagine it could be proven, Freshpopcorn is out of ideas.


  • #237
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,713 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Graham wrote: »
    you keep claiming that if 'these people' are satisfied a woman has been raped they'll allow her to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

    You must think that something will satisfy them, either that or you're asking because you are well aware that nothing will satisfy these people.

    Well if anybody knows about any laws from different countries from around the world where a system will satisfy these people let me know and I'll tell them. That may mean another few repeal votes.


  • #238
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    RayM wrote: »
    I suppose they don't like men telling them what to do with their own bodies. You're right though - they don't seem to have a problem with men not telling them what to do with their own bodies. Funny, that.

    The whole thing here involves another life form. At the start it isn't up to much. Later it is. In short not just a woman's choice unless you want no restrictions at all.


  • #239
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Syphonax wrote: »
    Your asking me if I have an answer, I dont. I simply stated the very few instances in which I find abortion permissible, is rape.

    If a woman is raped I would imagine that it can be proven outside the natural timeframe of a court and that the conviction of the man who committed the rape would have have to be fully concluded, only rather that the woman was violated and did not consent, and so the baby could be legitimately terminated with reasonable confidence in that she is telling the truth.


    What would be your opinion of this, or are you just using this as an excuse for full on demand abortion as opposed to just for rape? You sound like you are.

    I think your imagination is jumping far beyond what can be written into any kind of legal reality; that we can have a situation where it can be legally established that a rape has occurred long before it is possible for the circumstances in which the rape happened to have been investigated.

    Seriously, think about this - how could this be achieved? Would the woman have to have suffered physical injuries to have any hope of being believed? If she does not report the rape immediately, any physical evidence might already be gone - how is she to prove that she was raped then?

    How would this work within the wider context of establishing the guilt of the rapist later on?

    What happens if the 'quick' investigation establishes that a rape definitely occurred and then the actual long investigation finds the rapist not guilty? Does the woman who was allowed an abortion because she was raped then get charged with perjury or with perjury AND a new crime - acquiring an abortion by deception?

    I think the idea of allowing abortions only in the case of rape is totally, completely unworkable; that is my opinion on this particular topic.


  • #240
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    Yourself isit wrote: »
    The whole thing here involves another life form. At the start it isn't up to much. Later it is. In short not just a woman's choice unless you want no restrictions at all.

    Surely a woman, alongside her doctors, can be trusted to make that choice under safe and legal conditions without having to travel to the UK.


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  • #241
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,713 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Not to do with the Rally/Repeal protests.
    A few weeks ago I was watching the Brendan O'Connor Show Cutting Edge. Tommy Tiernan was on it with somebody from IONA. I was with somebody who would be Pro-life and Pro choice. It was really funny listening them One saying Tommy had her with every comment and the other side saying The IONA had Tommy with every comment.


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