Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Jobstown Defendants Not Guilty - The Role of the Gardai and the Judicial Process

2456730

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    What about the defendants trying to influence the judicial process with their huge social media activities?

    What about a two year campaign of vilification by right-wing politicians and the media against the protesters - the leaking of information by the Gardai to the media - and the likes of Enda Kenny saying that Burton was 'effectively kidnapped', Leo Varadkar falsely accusing Paul Murphy of organising and orchestrating 'thuggery', Alex White calling for charges of false imprisonment, David Begg falsely accusing protesters of 'beating and kicking' Karen O'Connell - the media running countless headlines about 'mob rule' and 'thuggery'.

    What about the media reporting the trial in a blatantly biased fashion against these innocent men - something the judge acknowledged during the trial.

    But no - let's focus on a Twitter hashtag - and ignore the Gardai telling lies on the witness stand in an attempt to stitch-up seven men on a charge that could have seen them imprisoned for years for delaying Burton for a couple of hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    mikep wrote: »
    ForReals, I think the incompetence of the guards got the defendants off.. If it was a stitch up do you honestly think the audio from the helicopter, which seems to have been crucial, would have been released?
    Murphy and Co. know all too well creating a bogeyman is the best way to garner support for their ideology.

    There were several crucial videos - some of which the defence had that the cops didn't know about.

    Furthermore there were two days of legal argument about the videos that the Gardai were supplying to the defence - they were doing their damnedest to avoid handing over videos. It is a credit to the defence counsel that they dug in and demanded full access to the evidence (and even then dozens of videos were not handed over).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,058 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    What about a two year campaign of vilification by right-wing politicians and the media against the protesters - the leaking of information by the Gardai to the media - and the likes of Enda Kenny saying that Burton was 'effectively kidnapped', Leo Varadkar falsely accusing Paul Murphy of organising and orchestrating 'thuggery', Alex White calling for charges of false imprisonment, David Begg falsely accusing protesters of 'beating and kicking' Karen O'Connell - the media running countless headlines about 'mob rule' and 'thuggery'.

    What about the media reporting the trial in a blatantly biased fashion against these innocent men - something the judge acknowledged during the trial.

    But no - let's focus on a Twitter hashtag - and ignore the Gardai telling lies on the witness stand in an attempt to stitch-up seven men on a charge that could have seen them imprisoned for years for delaying Burton for a couple of hours.
    There was plenty of the above in fairness.
    The media didn't make up the videos. No actors were used.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    What about a two year campaign of vilification by right-wing politicians and the media against the protesters - the leaking of information by the Gardai to the media - and the likes of Enda Kenny saying that Burton was 'effectively kidnapped', Leo Varadkar falsely accusing Paul Murphy of organising and orchestrating 'thuggery', Alex White calling for charges of false imprisonment, David Begg falsely accusing protesters of 'beating and kicking' Karen O'Connell - the media running countless headlines about 'mob rule' and 'thuggery'.

    If you want to make the point that there was a concerted effort to attack them in the media etc, then by all means make that point with links and so forth.

    As regards the media, generally speaking the Irish media are quite respectful of upcoming trials for fear that they might prejudice it. I wasn't aware of any clear campaign to tarnish the protesters. I'm sure some people wrote opinion pieces about Irish water and violent protests and used this as a reference point, but that is not the same as what you are describing. In a free press, people are entitled to express their views, subject to the sub judice rule. The protesters and their supporters also had a campaign, but they were actively breaching the sub judice rule.

    Ultimately, people can decide for themselves whether they think this form of protest is legitimate or not.

    What leaking of information to the media by the gardai are you referring to? The only thing I can find when I google it is this:

    http://socialistparty.ie/2017/03/gardai-media-cosy-relationship-revealed/

    RE: Enda and Leo's comments - they are perfectly entitled to form a view and state it in the Dail. In their view, one of their dail colleagues was subjected to a traumatic ordeal at the hands of another dail colleagues. If they said nothing it would be worse.

    Alex White calling for charges of false imprisonment. Well I suppose he can say what he wants but there's nothing to suggest he had any influence over the DPP. But they were charged with false imprisonment so what exactly was wrong with him saying that?

    The David Begg thing is a bit of a curve ball. I wasn't in the Court so I cant comment on what the evidence was other than what was reported.
    Giving evidence on the fourth day of the trial, Ms O’Connell said she and Ms Burton were pushed and shoved by protesters as they walked from An Cosán Education Centre to a neighbouring church for a graduation ceremony

    http://www.echo.ie/show/article/joan-burton-s-advisor-tells-court-she-was-petrified-crying-and-very-very-fearful

    So that was her evidence. If your point is that she never said she was kicked, then perhaps you are splitting hairs. This is the incident that they are referring to i.e. before they got in the car:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzKz69VkYJE

    Pretty scary stuff if you ask me. Were they beaten and kicked as they transited through the police cordon, I don't know.

    But, even if I am wrong about that, and David Begg misspoke, so what? What difference does it make?

    So again, set out your stall re: big conspiracy against them. In reality, they got a fair trial and if anyone defamed them in the media, they can bring a civil action against the paper in question and clean up!
    What about the media reporting the trial in a blatantly biased fashion against these innocent men - something the judge acknowledged during the trial.

    How is it blatantly biased? When searching for the stuff you refer to above, I found a lot of coverage of the cross examination of the witnesses i.e. the parts that are in favour of the accused:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2017/0505/872819-jobstown-court/
    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2017/0516/875688-jobstown/
    http://www.thejournal.ie/jobstown-trial-7-3397383-May2017/

    etc

    The only reference I can see to the Judge talking about media is this one:

    http://www.thejournal.ie/smartphones-jobstown-2887675-Jul2016/

    So where are you getting it that the Judge acknowledged that the media were biased? Was it that she told the jury to ignore media reports? Because that happens in every trial.
    But no - let's focus on a Twitter hashtag - and ignore the Gardai telling lies on the witness stand in an attempt to stitch-up seven men on a charge that could have seen them imprisoned for years for delaying Burton for a couple of hours.

    The specific lies that are referred to are:
    1. One garda omitted to say that stones were thrown in her statement but did say so in the witness box;
    2. There was a difference of opinion as to what was actually said by Paul Murphy when he was using the megaphone to ask whether they agree to let her go.
    3. Garda Cooke gave a narrative as to what happened and it was suggested that this was toned down when he saw the videotape. The Garda denied that he lied.

    Am I missing something? None of these seem to be definitive evidence of perjury, but if they are then the protesters are free to go to the GSOC and make a complaint there. GSOC will investigate it further.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If you want to make the point that there was a concerted effort to attack them in the media etc, then by all means make that point with links and so forth.

    As regards the media, generally speaking the Irish media are quite respectful of upcoming trials for fear that they might prejudice it. I wasn't aware of any clear campaign to tarnish the protesters. I'm sure some people wrote opinion pieces about Irish water and violent protests and used this as a reference point, but that is not the same as what you are describing. In a free press, people are entitled to express their views, subject to the sub judice rule. The protesters and their supporters also had a campaign, but they were actively breaching the sub judice rule.

    Ultimately, people can decide for themselves whether they think this form of protest is legitimate or not.

    What leaking of information to the media by the gardai are you referring to? The only thing I can find when I google it is this:

    http://socialistparty.ie/2017/03/gardai-media-cosy-relationship-revealed/

    RE: Enda and Leo's comments - they are perfectly entitled to form a view and state it in the Dail. In their view, one of their dail colleagues was subjected to a traumatic ordeal at the hands of another dail colleagues. If they said nothing it would be worse.

    Alex White calling for charges of false imprisonment. Well I suppose he can say what he wants but there's nothing to suggest he had any influence over the DPP. But they were charged with false imprisonment so what exactly was wrong with him saying that?

    The David Begg thing is a bit of a curve ball. I wasn't in the Court so I cant comment on what the evidence was other than what was reported.



    http://www.echo.ie/show/article/joan-burton-s-advisor-tells-court-she-was-petrified-crying-and-very-very-fearful

    So that was her evidence. If your point is that she never said she was kicked, then perhaps you are splitting hairs. This is the incident that they are referring to i.e. before they got in the car:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzKz69VkYJE

    Pretty scary stuff if you ask me. Were they beaten and kicked as they transited through the police cordon, I don't know.

    But, even if I am wrong about that, and David Begg misspoke, so what? What difference does it make?

    So again, set out your stall re: big conspiracy against them. In reality, they got a fair trial and if anyone defamed them in the media, they can bring a civil action against the paper in question and clean up!



    How is it blatantly biased? When searching for the stuff you refer to above, I found a lot of coverage of the cross examination of the witnesses i.e. the parts that are in favour of the accused:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2017/0505/872819-jobstown-court/
    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2017/0516/875688-jobstown/
    http://www.thejournal.ie/jobstown-trial-7-3397383-May2017/

    etc

    The only reference I can see to the Judge talking about media is this one:

    http://www.thejournal.ie/smartphones-jobstown-2887675-Jul2016/

    So where are you getting it that the Judge acknowledged that the media were biased? Was it that she told the jury to ignore media reports? Because that happens in every trial.



    The specific lies that are referred to are:
    1. One garda omitted to say that stones were thrown in her statement but did say so in the witness box;
    2. There was a difference of opinion as to what was actually said by Paul Murphy when he was using the megaphone to ask whether they agree to let her go.
    3. Garda Cooke gave a narrative as to what happened and it was suggested that this was toned down when he saw the videotape. The Garda denied that he lied.

    Am I missing something? None of these seem to be definitive evidence of perjury, but if they are then the protesters are free to go to the GSOC and make a complaint there. GSOC will investigate it further.

    How can you try a potential perjury case in half a dozen lines on the internet and reach a conclusion that satisfies anyone?

    I don't know if garda perjured themselves but the fact that 186 garda statements failed to convict these men begs for a forensic look at why, if you have any interest in having a force with integrity. You cannot ignore recent history here either.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Because the jury accepted that the protest was peaceful and they ignored the lies of gardai on the witness stand

    Here's a video of six minutes of the protest. They were in the car for over 2 hours:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j16jbukyUOk

    You can clearly see gardai being pushed and hit, and objects flying across above the car in the video. You can hear the loud banging on the car. It seems clear from the Judge's charge that there is no evidence that the seven accused in this trial were involved in violence. However, this incident as a whole was far from a peaceful protest and the Jury had no role in deciding whether the whole protest was peaceful or not.

    As an aside, you can hear the protesters chanting "From the River to the Sea, Irish Water will be Free", which is a paraphrasing of Hamas' slogan calling for the destruction of the Israeli State.

    While the seven men in this trial are not guilty of any wrongdoing, the protest as a whole was a horrible incident.

    I wonder though, since Paul Murphy has described the protest as peaceful and legitimate, how would he feel if this was done to him? Let's say middle class workers decided that they had enough of the "tax the middle class don't pay anything ourselves" form of socialism that he advocates and decided to trap him in his car banging on it repeadly, throwing stuff at him, shouting slogans that are deliberately taken from racist propaganda. How would he feel then? Has he ever answered that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 981 ✭✭✭Bishopsback


    The jury simply said "not guilty". There was no comment made on the peacefulness of the protest or lack thereof.

    Exactly.
    Really this has given murphy a new platform, guarantee him another stint in the dail, sufferance and all that.
    A violent protest or a peaceful protest wasn't what the jury was asked to consider.
    False imprisonment is a serious offence.
    The protest at jobstown turned nasty, got out of hand, if lesser charges had been brought, eg, violent conduct, restricting free movement or various unruly behaviour charges, they could have been dealt with quickly, a lot less expensively and without the need ask a jury to convict people in circumstances where they could have been sending people to prison.
    An over the top reaction by the DPP and everyone else involved in bringing this to court IMO.
    A few hefty fines and possibly bind a few people to the peace would have sufficed I think.
    I'm certainly no fan of Mr murphy or his compatriots BTW.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    How can you try a potential perjury case in half a dozen lines on the internet and reach a conclusion that satisfies anyone?

    I'm not suggesting that that be done. Quite the opposite in fact. But if JRG wants to make an argument that there was a grand conspriacy against the protesters in the media, lets hear the basis for it.
    I don't know if garda perjured themselves but the fact that 186 garda statements failed to convict these men begs for a forensic look at why, if you have any interest in having a force with integrity. You cannot ignore recent history here either.

    The number of gardai is immaterial. There have been convictions with only one or two gardai making statements, and acquittals where there are hundreds of garda statements, none of which are impugned. This was a major incident involving a lot of gardai, so there is little wonder that there were so many statements made.

    In order to raise questions about the integrity of the gardai, something more substantial than the absence of a conviction would be required. Again, I'm not suggesting that that be set out on the internet, but rather if there is anything then it can be complained of to GSOC.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I'm not suggesting that that be done. Quite the opposite in fact. But if JRG wants to make an argument that there was a grand conspriacy against the protesters in the media, lets hear the basis for it.



    The number of gardai is immaterial. There have been convictions with only one or two gardai making statements, and acquittals where there are hundreds of garda statements, none of which are impugned. This was a major incident involving a lot of gardai, so there is little wonder that there were so many statements made.

    In order to raise questions about the integrity of the gardai, something more substantial than the absence of a conviction would be required. Again, I'm not suggesting that that be set out on the internet, but rather if there is anything then it can be complained of to GSOC.

    So you want to be able to set the parameters here, is that it?
    Enough people are concerned with garda involvement with this case. Just because you aren't doesn't make it wrong to want a closer look at what went on.

    I could emote like you about what if it was you being hauled in front of a court or your 16 yr old in custody, but I won't.
    Suffice to say that some of us would like a garda force with integrity and above suspicion.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    There were several crucial videos - some of which the defence had that the cops didn't know about.

    Furthermore there were two days of legal argument about the videos that the Gardai were supplying to the defence - they were doing their damnedest to avoid handing over videos. It is a credit to the defence counsel that they dug in and demanded full access to the evidence (and even then dozens of videos were not handed over).

    I may be misreading your post, but are you applauding the defence for withholding video evidence from the prosecution, while excoriating the prosecution for withholding video evidence from the defence?


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    So you want to be able to set the parameters here, is that it?
    Enough people are concerned with garda involvement with this case. Just because you aren't doesn't make it wrong to want a closer look at what went on.

    I could emote like you about what if it was you being hauled in front of a court or your 16 yr old in custody, but I won't.
    Suffice to say that some of us would like a garda force with integrity and above suspicion.

    Well I might be concerned if someone pointed to specific instances of wrongdoing. There are allegations that the gardai were lying, and I wait to hear if I missed out on any of the big ones. But so far the allegations of lying seem to be that gardai exaggerated their evidence, a claim which the gardai seem to deny. Given that what one person observes can vary greatly with what another observes, this isn't anything unusual and is par for the course in a criminal trial.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I may be misreading your post, but are you applauding the defence for withholding video evidence from the prosecution, while excoriating the prosecution for withholding video evidence from the defence?

    That is their right. The prosecution have a duty of disclosure which the defence do not have.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well I might be concerned if someone pointed to specific instances of wrongdoing. There are allegations that the gardai were lying, and I wait to hear if I missed out on any of the big ones. But so far the allegations of lying seem to be that gardai exaggerated their evidence, a claim which the gardai seem to deny. Given that what one person observes can vary greatly with what another observes, this isn't anything unusual and is par for the course in a criminal trial.

    I don't think a garda or series of garda giving evidence that a judge says doesn't corroborate what actually happened is normal. There is undeniable history here with the integrity of the force.
    Leave the emotional stuff out and there is a very disturbing pattern here that as far as I am concerned needs scrutiny.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,058 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    That is their right. The prosecution have a duty of disclosure which the defence do not have.

    That's interesting and something I didn't know. So the defence do not have to give their videos to the prosecution but the prosecution have to hand theirs up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,025 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Was simple in the end... Was it false imprisonment or not... And it wasn't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,058 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Was simple in the end... Was it false imprisonment or not... And it wasn't.
    Or it just couldn't be proved.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Or it just couldn't be proved.

    Apparently it boiled down to footage from the garda helicopter which had a wider view than people on the ground, which showed that contradictory to statements made that reversing out of the crows was not possible, it would have been possible to do so

    That was according to today fm yesterday.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    That's interesting and something I didn't know. So the defence do not have to give their videos to the prosecution but the prosecution have to hand theirs up.

    Yes. Unless defence evidence constitutes an expert report or an alibi, there is no obligation to disclose it to the prosecution. The prosecution are obliged to provide all available material to the defence, whether it assists the prosecution case or potentially undermines it.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    That is their right. The prosecution have a duty of disclosure which the defence do not have.

    Interesting. That kinda stacks the deck against the prosecution, doesn't it?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Interesting. That kinda stacks the deck against the prosecution, doesn't it?

    Or keeps them honest?


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    I don't think a garda or series of garda giving evidence that a judge says doesn't corroborate what actually happened is normal. There is undeniable history here with the integrity of the force.
    Leave the emotional stuff out and there is a very disturbing pattern here that as far as I am concerned needs scrutiny.

    Again, a specific link to the Judge's comments would be nice.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Stheno wrote: »
    Or keeps them honest?

    Maybe, but it seems to me that a trial would be more objectively fair if both sides were kept honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Again, a specific link to the Judge's comments would be nice.

    I can't post links from this device, but RTE site has direct quotes from the judges jury direction.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Interesting. That kinda stacks the deck against the prosecution, doesn't it?

    Not really. Their job is to present all the relevant evidence and that involves disclosing everything they have. If they didn't disclose something exculpatory and the person was convicted it would be a miscarriage of justice.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Not really. Their job is to present all the relevant evidence and that involves disclosing everything they have. If they didn't disclose something exculpatory and the person was convicted it would be a miscarriage of justice.

    Is that to support "proof beyond a reasonable" doubt?

    I know that's an American expression I mean the Irish equivalent


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    I can't post links from this device, but RTE site has direct quotes from the judges jury direction.
    Addressing the jury this morning, Judge Melanie Greally said she did not expect the jury members to be deaf or blind to the political background or the emotion generated by the debate on water charges.

    She said they may feel a natural sympathy for the predicament of the accused men, may know them or the prosecution witnesses, and like or dislike them.

    They may also be concerned about the consequences of their decision.

    However, she said she urged them in their decision making "to be fearless and to put aside your sympathies or strong views on the political climate that led to the protests. You should approach it in an analytical and dispassionate manner."

    Judge Greally said the jury must analyse the evidence in relation to each accused on its own merit and seek to identify their individual state of mind and their intent. The view they form against one accused should not influence their view against the others.

    None of the accused is charged with violence and none is responsible for the conduct of others acting violently on the day.

    However, she said it would be utterly wrong to suggest the violence of others was not a relevant circumstance of the case.

    She said as citizens of this republic Ms Burton and Ms O'Connell had a Constitutional right to personal liberty and were entitled to come and go as they pleased.

    The six men on trial had a right to protest peacefully and express opposition and anger over water charges. These rights were not competing rights, they co-existed and the law largely succeeded in ensuring this, the judge said.

    She said the right to protest, even if exercised peacefully, cannot be at the expense of personal liberty.

    She told the jury only peaceful assembly is protected by law. The right to peaceful assembly is not lost by sporadic violence if the individual person remains peaceful in their actions and intentions.

    Judge Greally said a critical aspect of the jury's decision was to decide whether or not the protest was peaceful.

    If the violence was any more than sporadic, maintained by a small number of people throughout the day it could not have been peaceful, she said.

    She said the jury must not confuse anger and hostility with violence, but the accused and their counsel describing the protest as peaceful was not good enough.

    "The mere fact of saying something is peaceful does not make it peaceful," she said.

    If the jury concludes the protest was peaceful it must assess the reaction of gardaí on the day and answer a number of questions about how it was handled.

    If they conclude it was not peaceful at all they must view the garda conduct in that context.

    If it was a violent protest then the actions of each of the accused in impeding Ms Burton's exit must be viewed in that light.

    "The rights and entitlements of freedom of expression only extend to peaceful protest. If this was not a peaceful protest then many of the criticisms of the gardaí become difficult to sustain," she said, adding: "If you conclude there was a risk to her safety then the actions of others in impeding her departure become impossible to justify."

    If it was violent protest that does not determine the guilt or innocence of each of the accused however, the jury must decide the role played by each of them.

    They must decide if there had been total restraint of the two women, was the car being obstructed or were the occupants the targets.

    The fact that the crowd followed when they were moved from the Avensis and a sit down protest ensued was a factor for the jury to consider, Judge Greally said.

    "Did the acts of the accused and others who impeded the vehicle totally restrain them from leaving Jobstown, which was their wish, or was it merely a delay or obstruction? Could they reasonably have escaped, was getting out and walking out of Jobstown an option or was reversing up the road an option?"

    The law dictates the means of escape must be without danger to the persons confined, she said.

    The judge said if the jury was not satisfied there was total restraint that was the end of the matter.

    If they decided there was, they must go on to assess the issue of the intent of each of each of the accused and whether or not it was their intention to keep Ms Burton in Jobstown.

    The jury must also consider aspects of the garda evidence where there were misstatements or inconsistencies with what gardaí said in their statements and their evidence.

    "Were they calculated to cast aspersions on Paul Murphy? Is this the establishment coming down on Paul Murphy or others for orchestrating a successful campaign against water charges? Do you agree this is what this is all about?"

    She said if the jury was inclined to agree with this, that he was being prosecuted not for what he did but for who he is then does that extend to the others on trial. While two of the others were county councillors who would be known locally but were without a national profile, the remaining three were ordinary citizens.

    "So how far does that argument actually go?" the judge asked.

    The judge said the video footage is a "significant component" but they should not disregard witness testimony.

    Some of the garda testimony was "not borne out by the footage and contradicted what was said".

    She said that type of discrepancy may affect their view and was a matter for them to assess inaccuracies in witness testimony and its effect on the issues to be decided.

    Judge Greally said the trial was not about curtailing the right to protest as it was a valued right that already existed with limits.

    The jury's verdict was not about sending out a message, it was about establishing if those limits were exceeded.

    It was accepted that protests may be angry and unruly in order to be effective but tolerance ceases at the point the law is violated.

    "The law confirms no exemption on any protester to do what is unlawful. Unlawful conduct does not become lawful because it happened at a protest," she said.

    Judge Greally said in analysing the evidence the jury must be satisfied about the ingredients of false imprisonment.

    She said the restraint must be total and it must be intentional. If they decided the restraint was total the jury must decide if the defendants participated in imposing that restraint and if they did so intentionally.

    If they concluded it was not intentional they must acquit. It they conclude it was intentional it was immaterial if it came about in the context of a political protest and they must convict, she said.

    At the start of the trial in April all six pleaded not guilty to falsely imprisoning Ms Burton and her adviser, Ms O'Connell in Jobstown in Dublin on 15 November 2014.

    The prosecution says Ms Burton and Ms O’Connell were trapped in Garda cars for up to three hours during the protest.

    Defence counsel argued that the men had taken part in a peaceful political protest and could not be held responsible for the violence of others that day.

    They said their clients had obstructed a vehicle but their actions did not amount to false imprisonment.

    They said Ms Burton and Ms O'Connell were placed in the cars on garda advice and remained in the cars on the same advice.

    Any threat to their safety was not caused by the six men on trial, they said.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0626/885602-jobstown/

    Which part exactly? The bolded part is the closest thing that I can see to what you are saying.

    She does not say, as you contend, that the garda evidence doesn't corroborate what actually happened. Nor does she say, as JRG contends, that she told the Jury to disregard the Garda evidence.

    She summarised the point made by the defence that it was a political prosecution and asked them to decide if they accept this or not. And if they do accept that it was, what is the consequence of this.

    She asked them to consider the video to be significant but not to disregard the oral evidence and that some of the garda testimony was not borne out or was contradicted. She then said it was a matter for the jury to decide whether this was relevant or not.

    So basically, the Judge in summarising the case, gave a summary of the case. One side said that the Garda evidence was reliable and the inconsitencies with the video were minor. The other said that the inconsistencies were significant. The Judge expressed no opinion of her own in relation to the inconsistencies, as it was a matter for the Jury.

    The Jury then found that there was a reasonable doubt and acquitted.

    The Judge makes no findings of fact, so it simply wouldn't be open to her to find that the Garda evidence was lies or to make findings as to what actually happened.

    Nor is it open to a Judge to tell a Jury to disregard evidence. She can tell a Jury that they are entitled to disregard evidence if they feel that the contradictions are such that they can't rely on it, and maybe that is what they did in this case. But the Judge didn't tell them to do that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0626/885602-jobstown/

    Which part exactly? The bolded part is the closest thing that I can see to what you are saying.

    She does not say, as you contend, that the garda evidence doesn't corroborate what actually happened. Nor does she say, as JRG contends, that she told the Jury to disregard the Garda evidence.

    She summarised the point made by the defence that it was a political prosecution and asked them to decide if they accept this or not. And if they do accept that it was, what is the consequence of this.

    She asked them to consider the video to be significant but not to disregard the oral evidence and that some of the garda testimony was not borne out or was contradicted. She then said it was a matter for the jury to decide whether this was relevant or not.

    So basically, the Judge in summarising the case, gave a summary of the case. One side said that the Garda evidence was reliable and the inconsitencies with the video were minor. The other said that the inconsistencies were significant. The Judge expressed no opinion of her own in relation to the inconsistencies, as it was a matter for the Jury.

    The Jury then found that there was a reasonable doubt and acquitted.

    The Judge makes no findings of fact, so it simply wouldn't be open to her to find that the Garda evidence was lies or to make findings as to what actually happened.

    Nor is it open to a Judge to tell a Jury to disregard evidence. She can tell a Jury that they are entitled to disregard evidence if they feel that the contradictions are such that they can't rely on it, and maybe that is what they did in this case. But the Judge didn't tell them to do that.

    She says very clearly that some of the garda testimony was 'not borne out by the footage and was contradictory'

    That is enough for an enquiry in my eyes. How does that happen exact!y, is it just an accident or something more sinister. If you are concerned about garda integrity, you have to scrutinise this fully.
    There is history and a pattern after all.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Stheno wrote: »
    Is that to support "proof beyond a reasonable" doubt?

    Not quite. The obligation to disclose comes from the role of the prosecutor to present evidence fairly. If the prosecution were aware of facts that could be exculpatory, it would be a miscarriage of justice. As with many of our rules for criminal trials, it comes from experience of what happens when things go wrong.
    I know that's an American expression I mean the Irish equivalent

    Actually it's an English or possibly Scottish expression originally, but beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard in all criminal trials in Ireland with the exception of the insanity defence.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    She says very clearly that some of the garda testimony was 'not borne out by the footage and was contradictory'

    That is enough for an enquiry in my eyes. How does that happen exact!y, is it just an accident or something more sinister. If you are concerned about garda integrity, you have to scrutinise this fully.
    There is history and a pattern after all.

    She says that in summarising the case and the arguments made. It was a matter for the Jury to assess this evidence and to assess the credibility of the Gardai. It is also up to them to assess the materiality of any such contradictions. It is not a matter for the Judge to decide facts. If she hadn't mentioned this, the accused would rightfully have complained that their side of the story wasn't accurately summarised by the Judge.

    Contradictions in evidence happen in almost every single trial. Sometimes the jury accepts the contradictions as undermining a person's evidence, sometimes they don't. The Jury only assesses it from a beyond reasonable doubt point of view.

    If every case where there were some contradictions was sufficient for an inquiry, we would have thousands of inquiries every year because virtually every case involves some contradictions of evidence. Great for lawyers I suppose, but hopelessly impractical.

    I'm not saying that everything that every Garda said in this case was accurate - the verdict clearly suggests doubts in relation to the prosecution case - but if you are trying to suggest that there is something sinster that needs to be investigated, you would need something a lot more substantial.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    She says that in summarising the case and the arguments made. It was a matter for the Jury to assess this evidence and to assess the credibility of the Gardai. It is also up to them to assess the materiality of any such contradictions. It is not a matter for the Judge to decide facts. If she hadn't mentioned this, the accused would rightfully have complained that their side of the story wasn't accurately summarised by the Judge.

    Contradictions in evidence happen in almost every single trial. Sometimes the jury accepts the contradictions as undermining a person's evidence, sometimes they don't. The Jury only assesses it from a beyond reasonable doubt point of view.

    If every case where there were some contradictions was sufficient for an inquiry, we would have thousands of inquiries every year because virtually every case involves some contradictions of evidence. Great for lawyers I suppose, but hopelessly impractical.

    I'm not saying that everything that every Garda said in this case was accurate - the verdict clearly suggests doubts in relation to the prosecution case - but if you are trying to suggest that there is something sinster that needs to be investigated, you would need something a lot more substantial.

    No I don't need anything more substantial, you don't get to set those parameters.
    I and a lot of other people want to know how this case was taken in the first place and why so much garda evidence was similarly dubious. Very simple really.


Advertisement