Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

irishbucsfan · 26-06-2017 11:09PM

Basil3 wrote: »

I'm merely informing you that it was an attempted charge down. Has he been cited?

No he hasn't been cited. And the TMO during the game didn't call that or the other two offenses back. Despite it being a clear offense that has led to sin binnings in the past. And that's what everyone's problem is.

bmwguy · 26-06-2017 11:10PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Nonsense. Any true rugby fan acknowledges the superlative level of rugby that the ABs are at, and have more or less always led the world in.
Despite a small population and not always the most outstanding physical athletes (compared tothe big strong and/or fast men that Eng and Fra can churn out at a much higher rate), the individual skills levels, coaching sophistication, tactical knowledge, and split second learned habits that have them do the right thing more often than everybody else is quite extraordinary, and can only be admired.
It was there in the past amateur era, it was there in the early professional era (despite the world cup failures), and is flowering in the last 10 years where their setting the bar so high they are almost permanently out of touch of everybody else now.
Anybody who like rugby, has to like the ABs. A bit of trash talk is only trivia around the edges, and to be disregarded.
Barrett's pick up 5 mins in on Sat alone was worth the price of a ticket to have been there.
And I'm rooting for the Lions. But the above's the truth.

I have to agree. Might not like them but hard not to respect and admire what they do consistently.

26-06-2017 11:13PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No he hasn't been cited. And the TMO during the game didn't call that or the other two offenses back. Despite it being a clear offense that has led to sin binnings in the past. And that's what everyone's problem is.

That's rugby. I could give you similar examples the other way, but its just a generally boring and negative direction to go.

If you start thinking about rugby as a sport won by scoring more tries than the other team, rather than a sport where you hope to win on the penalty count, it becomes infinitely more enjoyable.

irishbucsfan · 26-06-2017 11:14PM

Basil3 wrote: »

That's rugby. I could give you similar examples the other way, but its just a generally boring and negative direction to go.

Examples of the same dangerous offense occurring regularly during the game to the same player in the same situation? I doubt it.

It was a very clear tactic from the ABs to target one of the important part of the Lions game. And the officials failed in their duty to protect Murray and take that avenue of foul play away from the ABs.

The dismissive nature of the 2nd half of your post is insulting really. The Lions played plenty of attractive rugby, thats not what this conversation is about.

26-06-2017 11:25PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Examples of the same dangerous offense occurring regularly during the game to the same player in the same situation? I doubt it.

It was a very clear tactic from the ABs to target one of the important part of the Lions game. And the officials failed in their duty to protect Murray and take that avenue of foul play away from the ABs.

The dismissive nature of the 2nd half of your post is insulting really. The Lions played plenty of attractive rugby, thats not what this conversation is about.

You misunderstood the second half of my post.

Regarding Murray, you're right....it's up to the refs to protect the players from dangerous play. It's also up to the players to protect their halfback. I'm sure the AB's had a plan to put him under pressure, but I wouldn't really say they succeeded with that. He still got away decent kicks. There's not a chance they had a plan to injure him through dangerous play.

irishbucsfan · 26-06-2017 11:28PM

Basil3 wrote: »

It's also up to the players to protect their halfback.

Gas. It's the Lions fault that Jerome Kaino illegally and dangerously hit one of their players.

After a few games of watching the ABs play fast and loose with the dangerous tackle laws I don't really believe the "there's not a chance it was intentional" line any more.

26-06-2017 11:31PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Gas. It's the Lions fault that Jerome Kaino illegally hit one of their players.

Did I say that?

Anyway. I really hope the All Black's can pull off a win without cheating this weekend. There's a first for everything, I guess.

Christy42 · 26-06-2017 11:35PM

Basil3 wrote: »

You misunderstood the second half of my post.

Regarding Murray, you're right....it's up to the refs to protect the players from dangerous play. It's also up to the players to protect their halfback. I'm sure the AB's had a plan to put him under pressure, but I wouldn't really say they succeeded with that. He still got away decent kicks. There's not a chance they had a plan to injure him through dangerous play.

Just running in the hope of applying pressure?

Your charge down attempt was laughable. If it was Kai no would not be making an AIL team. He was late by a mile, was lower than were the ball was being kicked so it was always going over him and was diving into the wrong leg. Kino knew 100% he was not making it.

Personally I don't think they wanted to injure Murray but were taking their chances for a few illegal hits to slow him down. Pretty what Lawes tries to do to fly half's in fairness. You can happily argue others do it (as they do) but I can't see any argument for saying it was not an illegal hit. I don't see it as citing offense under the rules though (though I would love if it was made one though - cowardly tactic imo).

Presumably a few forwards will be deployed to defend Murray next time. Can't be depending on refs for these as they get called incredibly inconsistently the world over.

Erik Shin · 27-06-2017 06:52AM

Anyone else think Gatland was actually quite clever in bringing this issue out in public? He's after putting a little pressure on the ref for the second test...it's not just mind games

27-06-2017 08:06AM

Erik Shin wrote: »

Anyone else think Gatland was actually quite clever in bringing this issue out in public? He's after putting a little pressure on the ref for the second test...it's not just mind games

Anything that takes the refs mind off giving the Lions undeserved penalties in the scrum is good with me.

razorblunt · 27-06-2017 11:06AM

What I don't understand and an aspect to which the Lions Mgmt/Organisers may want to tackle is that you'd want to surely look at the Lions and think "they lost Moriarty, bloody hell they've called up VdF" or pick your players for another exampled.

We've lauded NZ rugby saying "look at McKenzie/NMS etc, they're so strong in depth, they can't get into the Tests".

Gray, Toner, VdF, Barclay, Watson, Launchbury etc. stepping off a plane with a fire lit under them would have been a statement. Instead you had Lions supporters deriding these players that were chosen (Russell and Davies aside) long before NZ fans had googled them.

AbusesToilets · 27-06-2017 11:09AM

razorblunt wrote: »

What I don't understand and an aspect to which the Lions Mgmt/Organisers may want to tackle is that you'd want to surely look at the Lions and think "they lost Moriarty, bloody hell they've called up VdF" or pick your players for another exampled.

We've lauded NZ rugby saying "look at McKenzie/NMS etc, they're so strong in depth, they can't get into the Tests".

Gray, Toner, VdF, Barclay, Watson, Launchbury etc. stepping off a plane with a fire lit under them would have been a statement. Instead you had Lions supporters deriding these players that were chosen (Russell and Davies aside) long before NZ fans had googled them.

Makes little sense from a management point of view either. Why would you not want to give yourself the best chance at winning. Calling up nobodies to ride pine vs experienced internationals who could make a serious contribution is baffling.

dregin · 27-06-2017 11:10AM

Square Ball for Saturday? I'll get booking a table, if people are up for it.

P.S. Does this need its own thread for visibility?

irishbucsfan · 27-06-2017 11:10AM

They'll just scrap the midweek games before the tests. They're pointless and they're the sole reason the Geography Six were required. It'll become a quirk in Lions history as the tour and its alicadoos adapt to professionalism.

As for why you don't call up players to replace injured ones, I think the management seem to have put a huge focus on building a small and focused group and are looking to disturb that as little as possible.

Christy42 · 27-06-2017 11:15AM

razorblunt wrote: »

What I don't understand and an aspect to which the Lions Mgmt/Organisers may want to tackle is that you'd want to surely look at the Lions and think "they lost Moriarty, bloody hell they've called up VdF" or pick your players for another exampled.

We've lauded NZ rugby saying "look at McKenzie/NMS etc, they're so strong in depth, they can't get into the Tests".

Gray, Toner, VdF, Barclay, Watson, Launchbury etc. stepping off a plane with a fire lit under them would have been a statement. Instead you had Lions supporters deriding these players that were chosen (Russell and Davies aside) long before NZ fans had googled them.

Or in some cases they were derided before the Lions fans had Google them.

Yeah_Right · 27-06-2017 11:18AM

The ABs supposedly targeting Murray. What law are they breaking? Seriously. The player has the ball, the AB dives at his legs with his arms out. What part is illegal? What if Murray dummies a kick and tries to run? He's tackled.

The difference between this and what Lydiate used to do was he tucked his arms in and dived at the ball carrier's legs. So that's a penalty.

thomond2006 · 27-06-2017 11:21AM

dregin wrote: »

Square Ball for Saturday? I'll get booking a table, if people are up for it.

P.S. Does this need its own thread for visibility?

I can make the first half at least.

irishbucsfan · 27-06-2017 11:26AM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What part is illegal?

Diving at the player with his arms out. Not wrapping. Hitting a player without wrapping below the knee is specifically a yellow card offense (and an Irish player was sinbinned for it in Argentina, think maybe Dan Tuohy?)

Also hitting a kicker late is a penalty anyway, but surely everyone knows that.

.ak · 27-06-2017 11:32AM

dregin wrote: »

Square Ball for Saturday? I'll get booking a table, if people are up for it.

P.S. Does this need its own thread for visibility?

Yes, and yes.

Let me know I know the lads there and I can see if we can get a spot. Smoked brekkie looks good too.

Yeah_Right · 27-06-2017 11:35AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Diving at the player with his arms out. Not wrapping. Hitting a player without wrapping below the knee is specifically a yellow card offense (and an Irish player was sinbinned for it in Argentina, think maybe Dan Tuohy?)

Also hitting a kicker late is a penalty anyway, but surely everyone knows that.

So if a player is running for the corner and the defender dives at their legs with their arms out its a penalty? Tap tackles aren't wrapping. Are they penalties? Grabbing a jersey isn't wrapping. Are they penalties?

I realise a late tackle is a penalty but if the tackler is committed and the carrier passes or kicks just before the tackle then it's almost never penalised.

Don't know about the Tuohy incident. What was the YC for?

awec · 27-06-2017 11:36AM

So more than likely the Lions are looking like it's going to be 4/10 wins for the tour. A pretty poor return to be honest.

Yea I know, two tests to come but while the Lions can get better I expect the All Blacks to get better as well.

Former Former · 27-06-2017 11:36AM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The ABs supposedly targeting Murray. What law are they breaking? Seriously. The player has the ball, the AB dives at his legs with his arms out. What part is illegal? What if Murray dummies a kick and tries to run? He's tackled.

The difference between this and what Lydiate used to do was he tucked his arms in and dived at the ball carrier's legs. So that's a penalty.

I think you could argue that Kaino launched himself at Murray without really caring if he hit him before or after the ball was gone, but that happens 20 times in every game. It could have been a penalty for mis-timing but it's a stretch to go from that to deliberately and dangerously targeting a player to put him out of commission.

Gatland should have just kept quiet and raised it with this week's ref in private.

irishbucsfan · 27-06-2017 11:43AM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So if a player is running for the corner and the defender dives at their legs with their arms out its a penalty? Tap tackles aren't wrapping. Are they penalties? Grabbing a jersey isn't wrapping. Are they penalties?

Yes. It is a penalty for diving at someone's legs without wrapping. Tap tackles are different, it's only where you charge a player which does not include tap tackles, so no they are not penalties and neither is grabbing a jersey (although grabbing a jersey can be illegal). None of those are specifically highlighted as foul play, like chop tackles are.

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I realise a late tackle is a penalty but if the tackler is committed and the carrier passes or kicks just before the tackle then it's almost never penalised.

If the tackler is committed and completes a legal tackle then it's not penalised and shouldn't be. That doesn't apply in this case.

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Don't know about the Tuohy incident. What was the YC for?

I really can't remember who it was, and now I'm starting to think it might have been against the other side, but it was for a tackle below the knee with no wrap. Someone like Buer with a better memory than me might recall.

Former Former wrote: »

that happens 20 times in every game.

No, it doesn't. And when kickers are hit late and dangerously the referee takes action. Stuart Hogg got a red card for it not so long ago.

.ak · 27-06-2017 11:47AM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The ABs supposedly targeting Murray. What law are they breaking? Seriously. The player has the ball, the AB dives at his legs with his arms out. What part is illegal? What if Murray dummies a kick and tries to run? He's tackled.

The difference between this and what Lydiate used to do was he tucked his arms in and dived at the ball carrier's legs. So that's a penalty.

I see where you're coming from, and normally I'd agree. If you want to play 9/10 you will be subject to treatment, that's just rugby.

However its worth noting under the laws there's no definition of a "charge down" when the attacker has the ball, it's a tackle, so must conform the tackle laws. In this case he does not; it's below the knee, it's a shoulder charge. He isn't making an attempt to wrap.

And when you take all of the technicality out of it, what is he REALLY trying to do? He's trying to injure a player, not in the sense of giving him a dead leg, or winding him, or roughing him up a little, but rather he's trying to snap his ACL, because that's what happens when you shoulder charge a knee unsupported. That can potentially be a career ending injury. Any of us who've played sports and have injured a ligament knows the repercussions of that. That's scummy. That's up there with Clarke's armbar imo.

Yeah_Right · 27-06-2017 11:48AM

Former Former wrote: »

I think you could argue that Kaino launched himself at Murray without really caring if he hit him before or after the ball was gone, but that happens 20 times in every game. It could have been a penalty for mis-timing but it's a stretch to go from that to deliberately and dangerously targeting a player to put him out of commission.

Gatland should have just kept quiet and raised it with this week's ref in private.

Yeah I'd agree with that. I remember being taught to make sure you put the player on the ground even if they got the ball away in the tackle so that he couldn't be involved in the next play.

I'm sure the ABs remembered Murray making a few darts around the ruck in Chicago so they were determined to put him in the ground and weren't going to risk him dummying a kick and then running.

I still don't see how it could be a penalty unless it's really late.

Former Former · 27-06-2017 11:53AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, it doesn't. And when kickers are hit late and dangerously the referee takes action. Stuart Hogg got a red card for it not so long ago.

Are you talking about this one? I don't really think they're comparable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImYlu7THs9o

irishbucsfan · 27-06-2017 11:56AM

Former Former wrote: »

Are you talking about this one? I don't really think they're comparable.

They're comparable to a limited extent. Which is that it's an illegal tackle on a kicker after he's kicked the ball. I don't think Kaino should be red carded or cited, Hogg was because he made contact with the head.

However BEFORE Garces saw that he made contact with the head he gave him a yellow card for hitting the kicker late and not wrapping, which is exactly what Kaino did.

razorblunt · 27-06-2017 11:59AM

Christy42 wrote: »

Or in some cases they were derided before the Lions fans had Google them.

True.

"you must be the worst pirate I've ever heard of"
- 'ah but you have heard of me'

Yeah_Right · 27-06-2017 12:05PM

.ak wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, and normally I'd agree. If you want to play 9/10 you will be subject to treatment, that's just rugby.

However its worth noting under the laws there's no definition of a "charge down" when the attacker has the ball, it's a tackle, so must conform the tackle laws. In this case he does not; it's below the knee, it's a shoulder charge. He isn't making an attempt to wrap.

And when you take all of the technicality out of it, what is he REALLY trying to do? He's trying to injure a player, not in the sense of giving him a dead leg, or winding him, or roughing him up a little, but rather he's trying to snap his ACL, because that's what happens when you shoulder charge a knee unsupported. That can potentially be a career ending injury. Any of us who've played sports and have injured a ligament knows the repercussions of that. That's scummy. That's up there with Clarke's armbar imo.

Kaino leads with his arms. Do the laws actually say a tackler has to wrap or has to use his arms? Grabbing a player's shorts or foot isn't wrapping but are legitimate tackles.

Is there anything in the laws saying you can't tackle a player at his knees? I know there is in the NFL but I didn't think there was in rugby. A carrier could snap his ACL being tackled side on or being hit while sidestepping. Nothing illegal or scummy there.

Former Former · 27-06-2017 12:05PM

I'm reminded of this hit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3QDOWk1qIo

Lawes sets out to absolutely empty Plisson and he doesn't really care if the ball is still there when he hits him.

But Owens reviewed it and said that Plisson was still in possession when Lawes committed to the tackle, no penalty.

I see something similar in the Kaino challenge; when he dives, Murray still has the ball, Kaino is entitled to make the challenge. I can't really see a dangerous shoulder charge in there, it looks like he leads with his arms. At worst, it's borderline and saying that Kaino is setting out to snap his ACL is a big leap IMO.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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