Does free tertiary education work?

Roger Hassenforder · 26-06-2017 04:04PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There's very little justification for having a large physical infrastructure with resulting tutors/lecturers/cleaners/security to deliver an awful lot of courses/degrees across the third level sector. We have a thing called 'the internet' now. I'd expect an awful lot of courses/degrees to be delivered digitally in the coming years.

We'll always need bricks and mortar colleges for 'hands on' courses like Underwater Basket Weaving

Valmont · 26-06-2017 04:06PM

reason vs religion wrote: »

I
This "micky mouse courses" accusation is so trite and so stupid. It betrays your prejudiced worldview...Instead, these students engage academically with an extensive body of knowledge and way of thinking, in the process developing skills like critical thinking, expression, sustained concentration, argument, synthesis of ideas, etc. You obsess over what you see as a worthless body of knowledge, unaware that what's important is actually what skills are developed through engaging with it.

This idea needs to go away fast. It's a superficial justification of even the most useless academic fields. You shouldn't need to go to university to develop 'sustained concentration', 'argument', or 'synthesis of ideas'. These are all things one should have learned in leaving certificate English. University was supposed to provide difficult and specialised knowledge or a deep humanistic education. Now we just have thousands of bleating humanities and social science graduates crying that they can't find a job despite having developed the highly sought after ability to write a two thousand word essay.

Valmont · 26-06-2017 04:09PM

LirW wrote: »

Catch 22: to get a well-paying job it's almost always requirement to have a degree.

This isn't the case anymore. Tech giant Google doesn't even care if its employees have degrees. I recently just landed my dream job based on skills I developed in my spare time as a hobby; it had nothing whatsoever to do with my admittedly useless degree.

26-06-2017 04:09PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Pretty sure you could've copied pasta'd one of your posts from 5 years ago. :pac:

In the case of Trinity there are a high level of repeats and dropouts (in science at least) followed by specialisation in the last couple of years. At that point many students will do 8-10 "modules" per year because they had to ape the mills. Failing any module is a disaster so it's fairly hard to get a 2:2 without sailing pretty damn close to the wind for an overall failure.

Professor Moriarty · 26-06-2017 04:10PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

"You idiot" brilliant!
I wouldn't give you the satisfaction of reporting it, I'll let it sit there with the rest of your inane post like the turd it is.

How do you know I'm not a hapless victim of one of these Mickey Mouse courses, unemployable, unless a Japanese/Korean multinational comes to my end of the peninsula with a sudden vacancy for a graduate with 0 experience, but a BA in Eastern Feminist Epistemology and the Philosophy of Science.

IMO, a "Philosophy of Science" course would be very worthwhile and meaningful with many important applications to modern science. Not least in relation to ethics.

26-06-2017 04:10PM

Valmont wrote: »

This isn't the case anymore. Tech giant Google doesn't even care if its employees have degrees. I recently just landed my dream job based on skills I developed in my spare time as a hobby; it had nothing whatsoever to do with my admittedly useless degree.

Tech seems to be one of the most meritocratic areas around right now.

26-06-2017 04:10PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

IMO, a "Philosophy of Science" course would be very worthwhile and meaningful with many important applications to modern science. Not least in relation to ethics.

For a 4 year course it would be a bit much.

Professor Moriarty · 26-06-2017 04:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

For a 4 year course it would be a bit much.

Perhaps. Many a good PhD in it though.

Roger Hassenforder · 26-06-2017 04:12PM

Valmont wrote: »

This isn't the case anymore. Tech giant Google doesn't even care if its employees have degrees. I recently just landed my dream job based on skills I developed in my spare time as a hobby; it had nothing whatsoever to do with my admittedly useless degree.

Hello fellow Alumini from the School of
Eastern Feminist Epistemology and the Philosophy of Science?

Kappa-Rho-Beta Forever...

Roger Hassenforder · 26-06-2017 04:14PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

IMO, a "Philosophy of Science" course would be very worthwhile and meaningful with many important applications to modern science. Not least in relation to ethics.

I agree, but do we need schools in every college churning them out?

Professor Moriarty · 26-06-2017 04:17PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I agree, but do we need schools in every college churning them out?

No. Certainly not every college but there's a place for every school of knowledge - even Eastern Feminist Epistemology.

osarusan · 26-06-2017 04:19PM

Making 'worthwhile' subjects free while introducing fees for others would probably result in loads more people applying for the 'worthwhile' subjects, until there are so many graduates that it's not a worthwhile subject anymore.

Dravokivich · 26-06-2017 04:20PM

andekwarhola wrote: »

I actually think 'free' fees benefit the middle-classes most. The class that can either pay it or save towards it. It hasn't led to an explosion in the rates of access for people from deprived backgrounds either.

At a rough calculation, saving the monthly child benefit (as we do) that everybody recieves for each child for 18 years would give you aroud 30 grand per child as they hit third-level age.

Not everybody is able to put that into savings. Another thing for your middle class to benefit from?

MarinersBlues · 26-06-2017 04:23PM

osarusan wrote: »

Making 'worthwhile' subjects free while introducing fees for others would probably result in loads more people applying for the 'worthwhile' subjects, until there are so many graduates that it's not a worthwhile subject anymore.

That is pretty much what the springboard scheme courses do.

It is working very well for the students, employers and the state.

LirW · 26-06-2017 04:30PM

Valmont wrote: »

This isn't the case anymore. Tech giant Google doesn't even care if its employees have degrees. I recently just landed my dream job based on skills I developed in my spare time as a hobby; it had nothing whatsoever to do with my admittedly useless degree.

A good friend of mine is a IT-dropout, started to work in a company that develops Casino games and makes more money with it than a graduate would.
Development and Programming are two fields where it's all purely skill-based: you either can do it or you can't. It gets a lot more difficult in other fields like Finance or HR. It also has to do with the number of applicants.

In a lot of cases a degree is the entry ticket for well-paying sectors. A few years down the line once the CV is right nobody gives a toss.

Yourself isit · 26-06-2017 04:30PM

reason vs religion wrote: »

It's both, you idiot. More lawyers graduate than are legal positions, which the poster I was replying to would see as wrong; I mentioned it to show that it's not merely a product of fees. Regardless, I believe people should be entitled to study what they want and think that the skills developed through a law degree are applicable widely.

This "micky mouse courses" accusation is so trite and so stupid. It betrays your prejudiced worldview. The reality is that most history graduates don't become historians, most English literature graduates don't become novelists or critics, most law graduates don't become lawyers, most maths graduates don't become mathematicians, and so on. Instead, these students engage academically with an extensive body of knowledge and way of thinking, in the process developing skills like critical thinking, expression, sustained concentration, argument, synthesis of ideas, etc. You obsess over what you see as a worthless body of knowledge, unaware that what's important is actually what skills are developed through engaging with it. And there is much reason to think that gender studies (which I happen to think to be one of the most abstract and challenging subjects within the arts) develops all the same skills as other essay-based subjects that I presume you admire, like history.

While there is something in what you say in some cases (classics in the Oxbridge colleges is a hard course to get into and produces a lot of the elite) I doubt that there's much original thinking in gender studies. The way you argue negates your argument, assuming you were so educated.

Yourself isit · 26-06-2017 04:32PM

LirW wrote: »

A good friend of mine is a IT-dropout, started to work in a company that develops Casino games and makes more money with it than a graduate would.
Development and Programming are two fields where it's all purely skill-based: you either can do it or you can't. It gets a lot more difficult in other fields like Finance or HR. It also has to do with the number of applicants.

In a lot of cases a degree is the entry ticket for well-paying sectors. A few years down the line once the CV is right nobody gives a toss.

Don't tell that to a trinity graduate. You are right. In IT it's industry experience and github.

Junkyard Tom · 26-06-2017 05:11PM

Valmont wrote: »

I recently just landed my dream job based on skills I developed in my spare time as a hobby.

Beer taster!?

Atoms for Peace · 26-06-2017 05:13PM

conorhal wrote: »

I'd prefer to follow the German model, doing a science, engineering or nursing course... here, have your education on us!

P.S. If you want to study some daft SJW arts course, your daddy can fund that for you...

With limited funds to go around we should absolutely focus those funds to encourage students to study in the areas that are useful to our society, as opposed to producing entitled, over-educated baristas.

In Germany you can also get into science and engineering positions through a more vocational model.

Jayop · 26-06-2017 05:17PM

My oldest is due to go to college in 3 years and I'm cacking it.Between fees and accommodation it's probably going to cost upwards of $8k a year and she won't be entitled to any assistance. Free my hole.

La_Gordy · 26-06-2017 05:21PM

I went to uni in Scotland and it's free there for everyone from the EU (apart from the rest of the UK....no idea how that's gonny pan out....). It was excellent. Rent in Glasgow was very cheap at the time (2006 - 2010), the education brilliant and the student population was very varied and made for a great experience.

Permabear · 26-06-2017 05:24PM

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CelticRambler · 26-06-2017 05:33PM

reason vs religion wrote: »

The European vet school is irrelevant to the Irish situation. And I don't understand the relevance of your UK vet friend's experience

That says a lot. In case you didn't know, Ireland is part of the EU, so someone graduating from, e.g. Dublin, can work in the UK; and someone graduating in Hungary can come and work in Dublin.

And the "European vet school" (what's that?) is very relevant, because UCD doesn't graduate "too many" vets (unlike the situation you say exists with lawyers), but Irish girls who want to get into veterinary go to Hungary instead where they pay the guts of 11,000€ per annum, just like in the UK, and start their careers with a massive debt.

What happens next? Exactly the same as with the UK graduates (or the US law graduates): two/three years into their career, they realise that the recruitment/promo video (like this one even though you say UCD has no reason to market specific courses) didn't prepare them for the reality of low pay and long hours. So they retrain and work in a different industy ... or get pregnant and take extended maternity leave.

Making young adults pay for their education is just another way of making them believe that anything can be bought, and they should resign themselves to being debt-slaves for the rest of their lives.

Jayop · 26-06-2017 05:33PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm well aware of the costs in the US and they're mental. But just because something is less expensive than the most expensive thing, it doesn't mean it's free, not by a long shot.

osarusan · 26-06-2017 05:33PM

MarinersBlues wrote: »

That is pretty much what the springboard scheme courses do.

It is working very well for the students, employers and the state.

True, but it's smaller numbers though, much smaller.

Making some courses free to everybody finishing the leaving would have a greater impact.

Permabear · 26-06-2017 05:36PM

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Carlos Orange · 26-06-2017 05:41PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think tuition and fees at a state university are only a fraction of the cost of a private university in the US.

Jayop · 26-06-2017 05:41PM

It's subsidized and rightly so, but for me there should be no fee's and a proper student loan system should be put in place.

Jayop · 26-06-2017 05:44PM

psinno wrote: »

I think tuition and fees at a state university are only a fraction of the cost of a private university in the US.

tuition for someone from within Texas at the University of Texas is $9806. (€8764 today)
Fee's for NUIG for a year are €3224

https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/the-university-of-texas-at-austin/paying-for-college/tuition-and-fees/
http://www.nuigalway.ie/student-fees/how-much/undergraduate-fees/

As was said, it's the other costs in America that add up.

Permabear · 26-06-2017 05:45PM

This post has been deleted.

Does free tertiary education work?

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