Brexit Referendum Superthread

Nody · 19-06-2017 04:38PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A moderator back seat modding?

Then feel free to click the report button

under my post and let the mods deal with it; as for back seating I'll respond as a user but I was asking you a question and was backing it up with your own posts to explain why, that has nothing to do with back seat modding to ask you a question using your own full posts from the same thread on the same page as the basis for the question.

There are no arguments to counter. There are just a number of stupid statements based on people's dislike of the Tory Party. I mean, criticising her for not taking action after Joe Cox's murder? wtf is that all about.

And yeah, I gave you a response as to why I think this is probably the hardest time faced by any British PM in the last thrity years ( or more).

You did not respond to the question of joining government with DUP, you did not explain how May in any way is doing to support on any of the issues you listed as reason why this was the hardest time in 30 years and greater than a bloody war etc. In short you appear to constantly refuse to answer questions other users raised and simply call their answers as rubbish as a reason not to.

She is under considerable pressure at the moment, but I have yet to see anything that would suggest to me she isn't up to the job. She is certainly the best of a bad bunch at the very least.

Then list what are these great actions, steps and policies she's taking that you are so impressed by? What is it that you see her doing in actual terms and actions that are showing you this is the right PM? That is my gist of the issue I have with your posts as a regular user; I see you make claims about May but I don't see anything in terms of what you actually like. And with out knowing what you think are good examples of May being a good PM how the heck am I suppose to know what you like and to discuss if we see the same thing or not? I'm not a May fan due to her lack of action, her constant swinging of the cape, her lackluster interviews, her dreadful disregard for the election she called but show me what I'm missing then; what are these actions she's taken to prove herself to you?

As I said I agree she's the best Tory got probably but that does not necessary make her a good PM; simply the least worst of what Tory has available.

Fratton Fred · 19-06-2017 04:51PM

Nody wrote: »

You know where the report button is; as for back seating I'll respond as a user but I was asking you a question and was backing it up with your own posts to explain why, that has nothing to do with back seat modding but you're well aware of that as well.

yeah it is.

Nody wrote: »

You did not respond to the question of joining government with DUP,

It wasn't a question. it was an irrelevant, off topic statement that was just a pathetic dig, so I ignored it accordingly.

Nody wrote: »

you did not explain how May in any way is doing to support on any of the issues you listed as reason why this was the hardest time in 30 years and greater than a bloody war etc. In short you appear to constantly refuse to answer questions other users raised and simply call their answers as rubbish as a reason not to.

Rubbish. They were all pretty simple compared to the task she has to do at the moment.

The country is divided, one half wants to stay in europe, the other wants to leave and that half (the larger half) doesn't actually know what leaving europe actually means. Chuck in a few terrorist attacks and it has been a horrendous term for TM so far.

The UK is probably facing its biggest test since the Suez Crisis.

There, I've put it in bold this time, you obviously missed it (despite quoting it)

Nody wrote: »

Then list what are these great actions, steps and policies she's taking that you are so impressed by? What is it that you see her doing in actual terms and actions that are showing you this is the right PM? That is my gist of the issue I have with your posts as a regular user; I see you make claims about May but I don't see anything in terms of what you actually like. And with out knowing what you think are good examples of May being a good PM how the heck am I suppose to know what you like and to discuss if we see the same thing or not? I'm not a May fan due to her lack of action, her constant swinging of the cape, her lackluster interviews, her dreadful disregard for the election she called but show me what I'm missing then; what are these actions she's taken to prove herself to you?

As I said I agree she's the best Tory got probably but that does not necessary make her a good PM; simply the least worst of what Tory has available.

so let me get this straight then.

It is ok for posters to make statements such as she "Back Stabbed her way to PM" without justifying it, but when someone asks why, they are supposed to say why they think why she didn't?

Or to put it another way, it's ok to say wild unsubstantiated remarks about her, but not OK to challenge them.

I wonder why they call this place an echo chamber.

Now, as you are so keen to make sure people answer questions, why do you think she back stabbed her way to PM?

Sam Russell · 19-06-2017 04:54PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you would rather democracy is ignored because you like Jeremy Corbyn?

Labour lost the election, get over it.

I do not particularly like Jezza, but at least he looks like an honest politician - in that he has beliefs and stands up for them honestly.

Calina · 19-06-2017 04:55PM

I fully take the view that the current predicament that the UK faces is one of the toughest it has faced sInce the 1940s.

However, that being said, this is entirely self inflicted and it would help if those highlighting what a tough position the UK is in also recognised that it is their own fault. As such, sympathy for the Tory party is somewhat thin on the ground and should be.

A change of governing party would buy a lot more sympathy for the UK.

Zubeneschamali · 19-06-2017 04:59PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Labour lost the election, get over it.

They lost that election, but they made up most of a 20 point deficit in the campaign, and have now passed the Tories in the polls. May dropped the ball again on the Grenfell disaster, and has still not seized control of it. Brexit talks began today, and will be bad news for May, too.

I quite fancy Labour to do better in the next election, whenever it happens.

Fratton Fred · 19-06-2017 05:06PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not particularly like Jezza, but at least he looks like an honest politician - in that he has beliefs and stands up for them honestly.

Is he pro or anti the eu these days?

Yeah. he has standards and he sticks to them, but I'm not sure if those standards are what is required at the moment.

His statements about getting a deal from the eu whatever the cost, come across to me as incredibly naive, for example and lets face it, the Labour party has onl;y stopped its in fighting since the start of the election campaign, so who knows if/when that will kick off again.

Calina wrote: »

I fully take the view that the current predicament that the UK faces is one of the toughest it has faced sInce the 1940s.

However, that being said, this is entirely self inflicted and it would help if those highlighting what a tough position the UK is in also recognised that it is their own fault. As such, sympathy for the Tory party is somewhat thin on the ground and should be.

A change of governing party would buy a lot more sympathy for the UK.

would it?

Jeremy Corbyn has long been a euro sceptic, voting against both the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties.

Don't forget, not one single Labour MP voted against holding a referendum on eu membership.

Rjd2 · 19-06-2017 05:07PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They lost that election, but they made up most of a 20 point deficit in the campaign, and have now passed the Tories in the polls. May dropped the ball again on the Grenfell disaster, and has still not seized control of it. Brexit talks began today, and will be bad news for May, too.

I quite fancy Labour to do better in the next election, whenever it happens.

You are right in they are favourites to win the next election for the reasons you said and many others, but to play Devils advocate, The only way The Tories run a more inept campaign next time round is to get John Terry to front it.:o

Fratton Fred · 19-06-2017 05:07PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They lost that election, but they made up most of a 20 point deficit in the campaign, and have now passed the Tories in the polls. May dropped the ball again on the Grenfell disaster, and has still not seized control of it. Brexit talks began today, and will be bad news for May, too.

I quite fancy Labour to do better in the next election, whenever it happens.

in what way did she drop the ball? the government's response has been pretty comprehensive, she just didn't turn up to give out a few hugs like Jezza did.

Rjd2 · 19-06-2017 05:11PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is he pro or anti the eu these days?

Yeah. he has standards and he sticks to them, but I'm not sure if those standards are what is required at the moment.

His statements about getting a deal from the eu whatever the cost, come across to me as incredibly naive, for example and lets face it, the Labour party has onl;y stopped its in fighting since the start of the election campaign, so who knows if/when that will kick off again.

would it?

Jeremy Corbyn has long been a euro sceptic, voting against both the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties.

Don't forget, not one single Labour MP voted against holding a referendum on eu membership.

They played a blinder regarding Brexit in this election.

They soaked up a lot of the anti leave vote, while their policy on respecting the vote and showing no interest in a second referendum meant they could entice leavers back to them who were content that Brexit would not be reversed if Corbyn was to win by offering other things.

Sooner or later they are going to have to let someone down regarding Brexit.

Sam Russell · 19-06-2017 05:18PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

in what way did she drop the ball? the government's response has been pretty comprehensive, she just didn't turn up to give out a few hugs like Jezza did.

No COBRA meeting called. I know it is not terrorism but it is terrifying particularly for those in the other tower blocks. Action needed to be taken but none was outside the police and fire services.

No action by the Ken & Chelsea Council, and no action from central government.

That is just day one.

No attempt to estimate the number 'Missing presumed dead', just 12 dead.

That is day two.

No attempt to estimate the number 'Missing presumed dead' - just 19 dead.

That is day three.

Ken & Chelsea council removed from the action group.

That is day four.

Now 59 'Missing presumed dead' but it could be more, but not so many more.

Have they tested the fire alarms in the tower blocks? [or even tested to see if there is one].

Have they banned cars blocking fire access routes to such tower blocks?

Have they done fire prevention tests on similar tower blocks?

Have they updated the advice to tenants on what to do in the case of fire?

Well, how did TM do on that list?

Fratton Fred · 19-06-2017 05:25PM

Rjd2 wrote: »

They played a blinder regarding Brexit in this election.

They soaked up a lot of the anti leave vote, while their policy on respecting the vote and showing no interest in a second referendum meant they could entice leavers back to them who were content that Brexit would not be reversed if Corbyn was to win by offering other things.

Sooner or later they are going to have to let someone down regarding Brexit.

they did. They seemed to have picked up a lot of the UKIP vote, that they lost in the last election. I guess their position made it pretty obvious that the issue is now closed and therefore UKIP are no longer required.

Fratton Fred · 19-06-2017 05:42PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

No COBRA meeting called. I know it is not terrorism but it is terrifying particularly for those in the other tower blocks. Action needed to be taken but none was outside the police and fire services.

COBRA? Seriously? is it a national crisis?

Sam Russell wrote: »

No action by the Ken & Chelsea Council, and no action from central government.

That is just day one.

No attempt to estimate the number 'Missing presumed dead', just 12 dead.

That is day two.

No attempt to estimate the number 'Missing presumed dead' - just 19 dead.

That is day three.

Ken & Chelsea council removed from the action group.

That is day four.

Now 59 'Missing presumed dead' but it could be more, but not so many more.

this is standard procedure. you can only state how many people are known to have died and how many are missing. The emergency services aren't in the business of making up numbers.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Have they banned cars blocking fire access routes to such tower blocks?

Have they done fire prevention tests on similar tower blocks?

Have they updated the advice to tenants on what to do in the case of fire?

Well, how did TM do on that list?

so you expect the Prime Minister to the jobs local councils should be doing?

Enzokk · 19-06-2017 06:11PM

I don't know if Theresa May backstabbed her way to being Prime Minister, but I do know that she has u-turned on so many policies and while she hasn't done anything wrong with the recent fire disaster, she hasn't done anything right either.

Lets not forget she states with surety that there will not be a snap election called.

Fratton Fred · 19-06-2017 06:56PM

There will be more u turns as well. There's no way the UK is having a hard Brexit. No government is that stupid.

First Up · 19-06-2017 07:08PM

Fratton Fred wrote:

There will be more u turns as well. There's no way the UK is having a hard Brexit. No government is that stupid.

She will have to face down the stupid wing of her party then

Enzokk · 19-06-2017 07:30PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There will be more u turns as well. There's no way the UK is having a hard Brexit. No government is that stupid.

And that is why she will be known as one of, if not the worst PM in history. She u turned on the election. She then u turned, and then didn't, on the dementia tax (btw, does anyone know what the policy is on that). Then she called Labour a coalition of chaos, yet it seems that she will need to go into one herself with the DUP. Or maybe not, seeing as a deal has not been agreed. But she will make a Queen's Speech when its not clear if she will have the required voted in parliament.

And all of this is before we look at what might happen with Brexit. If she has to stand down on her rhetoric on Brexit she will seem absolutely spineless.

Should we start looking at her record as Home Secretary? How is the immigration figures looking? Close to the "tens of thousands" yet? Anyone remember those vans she had driving around the UK? If it wasn't this tragic it would be funny, but she is in charge of the UK with the negotiations that will impact not just the UK but Ireland as well.

As for the country being divided. She has been in cabinet/in charge for the last 7 years. She herself said that austerity is now over, so it was a choice by the Conservatives and not just a plan to help with the deficit. You could feel sympathy for her if she hasn't been front and centre for most of the problems she is facing now.

By the way, anyone see that David Davis wants to "...to build a strong and special partnership between ourselves, our European allies and friends,". If only there was a way that you could in a close "union" with the other EU nations.

With the clock ticking, Britain, EU play up chance of deal

Capt'n Midnight · 19-06-2017 07:33PM

Nody wrote: »

Falklands Wars, Iraq invasion, most of the 90s with IRA bombing away happily comes to mind...

The difference it that May doesn't seem to understand the first law of holes which states that "if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging".

Unless she is still bent on getting rid of human rights by scuppering the talks

ancapailldorcha · 19-06-2017 07:58PM

This has appeared on my Facebook feed:

19225308_10155104765844279_4513237515632430767_n.jpg?oh=6c9ef5f856679f06d763748b107c9e7d&oe=59E74106

19225308_10155104765844279_4513237515632430767_n.jpg?oh=6c9ef5f856679f06d763748b107c9e7d&oe=59E74106

Seems to be overly ambitious to me.

19-06-2017 08:04PM

9 things they already have.

3 things they don't.

oscarBravo · 19-06-2017 08:16PM

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the groundwork is being laid for the hardest of brexits, with the blame being laid at Barnier's feet. All the talk of wanting to maintain the CTA, keeping a soft border with the Republic, all the while talking about leaving the customs union and controlling immigration - it all sounds so reasonable, as long as you ignore the bits that are mutually exclusive.

The sleight-of-hand merchants will tell us that it's all possible, if the EU will only be reasonable. The EU will, quite reasonably, point out that what's being asked for is a logical impossibility - and then the hard brexit will be presented as the unfortunate consequence of the EU's intransigence.

I hope I'm wrong.

A Dub in Glasgo · 19-06-2017 08:20PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This has appeared on my Facebook feed:

Seems to be overly ambitious to me.

I am not sure whomever shares that want to achieve with Brexit though

ancapailldorcha · 19-06-2017 08:26PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the groundwork is being laid for the hardest of brexits, with the blame being laid at Barnier's feet. All the talk of wanting to maintain the CTA, keeping a soft border with the Republic, all the while talking about leaving the customs union and controlling immigration - it all sounds so reasonable, as long as you ignore the bits that are mutually exclusive.

The sleight-of-hand merchants will tell us that it's all possible, if the EU will only be reasonable. The EU will, quite reasonably, point out that what's being asked for is a logical impossibility - and then the hard brexit will be presented as the unfortunate consequence of the EU's intransigence.

I hope I'm wrong.

I think you are, OB. I can't see the Tories' corporate collaborators being too keen on a hard Brexit. Then there is the NHS which draws something like 25% of its clinical staff from the EU. You also have farmers dependent on seasonal labour, interconnected supply chains, a lack of UK regulatory bodies due to the EU leading in this area, Northern Ireland, the European Patent Office, etc.... And that's to say nothing of Dover through which over 5 million vehicles pass each year.

Basically, a hard Brexit would be a catastrophe and even many Tory MP's realise this, some even grudgingly. May is torn between her Centrist Liberal MP's, her right-wingers and the Paleosceptics who want out at all costs and who probably were hoping the whole EU would collapse so they could replace it with Trump's America. Her situation has been worsened by the election result where people are either beginning to see this for the mess that it is or the oldies aren't having any of this Dementia Tax nonsense, probably a combination of the two.

The whole thing has been a mess from start to present with the press and the usual acolytes employing baffling amounts of doublespeak and doublethink to try to convince us all that May is doing fine and that it's that dastardly Juncker who's the problem. I'll agree with you there, OB. The EU is responsible and it will be for at least another decade no matter what the actual facts are.

ancapailldorcha · 19-06-2017 08:26PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I am not sure whomever shares that want to achieve with Brexit though

Disappointing. I was hoping that I'd either misread or misinterpreted it. Alas.

Nody · 19-06-2017 08:26PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I am not sure whomever shares that want to achieve with Brexit though

Cut down the fluff and it works out as a hard brexit with minimal deal on sharing terrorist information ala Interpol etc. TD with third parties = not part of EU trade union and pretty much everything else is fluff and double talk but lack actual relevant meaning in practice for Brexit.

Certainty and clarity - fluff
Control of our own laws - No ECJ power (hard brexit)
Strengthen the Union - fluff
Maintain the CTA with Ireland - hard brexit with border in the UK
Rights for EU nationals / British in EU - fluff
Protect workers' right - fluff
Free trade with European markets - fluff (create a TD and claim success)
New trade agreements with other countries - hard brexit (no EU customs union)
The best place for science and innovation - fluff (expect a few million thrown for R&D as show but well below EU funding)
Cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism - Interpol cooperation level ala USA
A smooth orderly Brexit - fluff

In short; hard brexit that sounds organized but will be complete chaos as predicted.

Capt'n Midnight · 19-06-2017 08:30PM

Is this real or Poe's law ?
Theresa May to cancel next year's Queen's Speech so she can stay as PM for TWO YEARS

steddyeddy · 19-06-2017 08:31PM

The UK caves to the first negotiation demand. The order of the exit talks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-negotiations-latest-uk-eu-divorce-deal-government-agrees-caves-in-before-trade-deal-a7798076.html

BlitzKrieg · 19-06-2017 08:41PM

I guess it could be only a positive that the day didnt end in hysterics and british diplomats waking out.

Fratton Fred · 19-06-2017 08:49PM

First Up wrote: »

She will have to face down the stupid wing of her party then

Maybe she could call an election and get a big majority, so she can ride out an grief from that side of her party......oh

steddyeddy wrote: »

The UK caves to the first negotiation demand. The order of the exit talks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-negotiations-latest-uk-eu-divorce-deal-government-agrees-caves-in-before-trade-deal-a7798076.html

I don't think anyone ever really expected any thing else did they?

Fratton Fred · 19-06-2017 08:50PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Is this real or Poe's law ?
Theresa May to cancel next year's Queen's Speech so she can stay as PM for TWO YEARS

remembering of course, that the Mirror is the left wing version of the Sun.....

Professor Moriarty · 19-06-2017 08:59PM

Interestingly, a majority (51%) would vote remain were a vote held today. The same poll puts Labour 3 points ahead of the Tories. From a different poll, (53%) want a second referendum on the outcome of the talks and 67% don't want Britain to leave the customs union. It would seem that public opinion is beginning to shift. And this is before the realities begin to sink in.

Brexit Referendum Superthread

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