Supreme Court rules that only first marriage of Lebanese man is valid

topper75 · 15-06-2017 04:47PM

In the sense that having sex with horses is another option, yes.

'Our place' I would have thought is to defend institutions that are there for good reason.

ScumLord · 15-06-2017 05:08PM

topper75 wrote: »

In the sense that having sex with horses is another option, yes.

I have no idea what your trying to get at there??

'Our place' I would have thought is to defend institutions that are there for good reason.

Like what? Catholic marriage? If people want to marry multiple people I have no problem with it.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 15-06-2017 05:21PM

More waste.

Nothing new in this country.

Roger Hassenforder · 15-06-2017 05:52PM

c_man wrote: »

Yep, but also people should be allowed to marry themselves legally.

AFAIK, and I could be wrong, I don't think you're allowed marry yourself.

seamus · 15-06-2017 05:57PM

grahambo wrote: »

Come on now... You genuinely think that:
A) That kind of setup would work in Western country. Family law is messed up enough here as it is.
That those women agreed to be married IE it was not arranged for them.

Weirdly enough if you dig into it, adding a 3rd person to the marriage doesn't actually complicate things all that much. Instead of dividing by 2, you divide by 3, etc etc. No more than adding a 3rd owner to a company makes company law more complicated.

The complications are added in by religious tradition where the man has multiple wives, but the women only have one husband.

If you structure polygamy as a communal contract - i.e. everyone is married to everyone else - the law doesn't get much more complicated.

Children is a separate matter and should be a separate matter anyway. The laws around children should be the same regardless of whether the parents are or were or never were married. A married man and a single man should have exactly the same rights to their children.

So polygamy wouldn't complicate that either.

The arranged marriage issue is an interesting one. The pretence that bigamy is usually a result of forced marriage, but monogamy is not. We can't pretend that polygamy would introduce any new issues around forced marriage that don't already exist in monogamy.
Ultimately this is something a male-centric view where two people can fall in love and get married, but if you add a 3rd person they must have been coerced into it.

That view has no foundation in logic if you examine it.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

AFAIK, and I could be wrong, I don't think you're allowed marry yourself.

You can't enter into a contract with yourself. That's basically the bottom line of it. "Marrying" yourself is meaningless, since you are one person. In effect everyone is already married to themselves - you have exactly the same rights now as you would have if you married yourself.

One eyed Jack · 15-06-2017 06:00PM

grahambo wrote: »

Sorry, but I just find it extremely misogynistic, that this country would even entertain the notion of a man have multiple wives.

I wouldn't see it as misogynistic (if all parties are in agreement and are happy with the arrangement, play on!), but this country doesn't entertain the notion of a man having multiple wives, if by entertaining the notion you mean that polygamous marriages are recognised by the Irish Constitution. That appears to be why Judges were calling for clarification on the issue because of the changing cultural demographics in Ireland. If anything I'd say this case was an interesting test case.

In the article is says the women support it, but in fairness they have no choice but to support it.

To be even fairer, you'd be only guessing at that though, and that could be perceived as you suggesting that the women involved don't know their own minds. That would make your own claims of misogyny a bit... awkward!

seamus · 15-06-2017 06:06PM

grahambo wrote: »

I believe he knew exactly what he was doing here.

Clearly in Ireland ,the first marriage is the one that stands, and that's why he brought the 2nd wife in first. Let that application clear, and then attempt to bring in the 1st one. Knowing that the first marriage would be the one that was recognised.

I agree this is probably likely, though I'm skeptical that a refugee in another country with a different language could gain an insight into the legal specifics to such a degree for this to occur. Even in the 12 years here was here presumably waiting for his asylum application to come in.

I wonder if he had some advocacy group quietly coaching him on strategy to get this over the line.

arayess · 15-06-2017 06:39PM

only winner is this man .
he now has both wives allowed to remain here.

wonder if wife 2 can claim single mothers now...:pac:

ScumLord · 15-06-2017 06:41PM

arayess wrote: »

only winner is this man .

And maybe the children of both the women.

Widdershins · 15-06-2017 09:17PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know for sure either way, I have heard american Muslims explain the reasons they introduced a second wife and they were all practical reasons. I think it's playing with fire but there are obvious advantages to having a marriage with 3 people over 2 people.

You seem to have a problem with it because it's alien and assume that our way is the correct way even though marriages with multiple wives has been common outside of the Christian faith and just uncommon in the Christian faith for thousands upon thousands of years..

Arranged marriages are also common, and not always unwanted. Your friend that went home to get married just goes to show even when you have the opportunity to find you own partner people still go back for arranged marriages. We all think the American model is the best but it's track record isn't great with a lot of marriages ending up in divorce. At least with an arranged marriage people know what the deal is, with an American marriage when the new couple lust wears off they're left in a marriage that isn't what they signed up for.

I'm not saying arranged marriages are better, I'm just saying they're another option, if the people involved are happy to go ahead then it's not our place to belittle them for it.

Sorry, with arranged marriage the MAN knows what the deal is, because he holds the power, the woman often does not know a thing about the deal 'til she meets her husband. And in ''the American model'' there is the additional choice of divorcing and being assured of an equitable outcome under law, can you say the same for the two or more wives who had their marriages to strangers arranged? I just find it appalling to see this practice sanitised in the way you are now doing. Polygamous marriages where the women went into it entirely by choice are a VERY different matter to arranged ones, regardless of the number of spouses.
I know of too many cases where women had to flee and change their identities to escape this very fate.

mikeym · 15-06-2017 09:28PM

Who wants Two Nagging Wives???

:D:D

pangbang · 15-06-2017 09:54PM

Fair is fair ffs!

Theres that Irish refugee bloke over in Lebanon right now, challenging the laws of the Lebanese people.

He is being entertained by the Lebanese supreme court equivalent.

The Lebanese media are reporting on it.

Lebanese forums are chatting about it.

Cop on, you racist eejits! This is the multicultural world where ALL countries have to change to accommodate those from abroad!

What? Did you think it was just those few countries in the EU that have to change to accommodate the rest of the world? (literally AND figuratively!)

WRONG!

Yamanoto · 16-06-2017 12:19AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

that could be perceived as you suggesting that the women involved don't know their own minds.

A sentiment you've oft expressed yourself, when discussing the selling of sex for monetary reward.

Nice to see you've come around though.

(if all parties are in agreement and are happy with the arrangement, play on!)

16-06-2017 12:36AM

These backward cunts - all of them - give the Middle Ages a bad name.

It's abject bollocksology to go on about freedom of choice when women are treated like dirt in the offending cultures. The power dynamic is ridiculously skewed to benefit men and keep women subservient by denying them equal rights to education, professional careers and anything else that would empower them. And all supported by their preferred women-hating religious cult. In this cultural context these primitives with their many wives are just coming up with another way to keep women faoi chois. You could only be away with the fairies to spin this as a "free choice" between equals.

Why are people with these clearly inferior, cultural values even entertained in this supposedly progressive society? It's only slightly over a century since women received many equal rights in Western Europe. A big no from me to these imported troglodytes and their relentless misogyny being allowed to drag us back to the dark ages.

ScumLord · 16-06-2017 02:26PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Why are people with these clearly inferior, cultural values even entertained in this supposedly progressive society? It's only slightly over a century since women received many equal rights in Western Europe. A big no from me to these imported troglodytes and their relentless misogyny being allowed to drag us back to the dark ages.

Because the way you be a progressive society is to tolerate culture that you might see as inferior.

As you point out, it's only a century since the women's rights movement started in earnest, it's not over by the way, I think women would say a lot has been achieved but it's still an unfair society.

So for you to turn around in the middle of your rehabilitation and belittle the guy that's just showed up is a bit rich.

topper75 · 16-06-2017 04:06PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I have no idea what your trying to get at there??

Like what? Catholic marriage? If people want to marry multiple people I have no problem with it.

I'm getting at the shoulder-shrug right-on liberalism that is probably best left on the college campus. Arranged marriages are not an equal alternative in our society in 2017. They are not just another option. They are an affront to our values and to reason itself.

I'm not in a Catholic marriage myself. That is not the issue. The issue is that marriage is a meaningful social institution here in Ireland, just as a limited company is, or our legislature. It is not there to be modified or watered down by outsiders.

ScumLord wrote: »

So for you to turn around in the middle of your rehabilitation and belittle the guy that's just showed up is a bit rich.

What? He is a citizen here for almost 2 decades. Is that not enough time to learn how things work here? He knew before coming that Ireland was a western country and that Lebanese mores have nothing to do with the place. Your framing of the situation sounds disingenuous to say the least.

ScumLord · 16-06-2017 04:20PM

topper75 wrote: »

I'm getting at the shoulder-shrug right-on liberalism that is probably best left on the college campus.

:rolleyes: Of course you are.

Arranged marriages are not an equal alternative in our society in 2017. They are not just another option. They are an affront to our values and to reason itself.

Nonsense, there are people in 3 way relationships, do you want to ban threesomes too, is that just an impossible option that no one should be allowed to do? Should we lock up the likes of Hugh Hefner for keeping what was basically a harem?

I'm not in a Catholic marriage myself. That is not the issue. The issue is that marriage is a meaningful social institution here in Ireland, just as a limited company is, or our legislature. It is not there to be modified or watered down by outsiders.

It is, constantly, Ireland didn't invent business concepts, we imported them, if someone came along with a better way of doing it we imported that too, most factories use manufacturing techniques developed by the Japanese. Irish law is a mish mash of British and American.

There's nothing unique or special about Irish marriage or business. It's all imported ideals.

What? He is a citizen here for almost 2 decades. Is that not enough time to learn how things work here? He knew before coming that Ireland was a western country and that Lebanese mores have nothing to do with the place. Your framing of the situation sounds disingenuous to say the least.

Do you know everything there is to know about Irish law and culture? He went through the legal process and lost, like any Irish citizen he has the right to make use of the court to settle matters, that's what the courts are for.

There's nothing wrong with what he tried to achieve.

Widdershins · 16-06-2017 04:56PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Because the way you be a progressive society is to tolerate culture that you might see as inferior.

As you point out, it's only a century since the women's rights movement started in earnest, it's not over by the way, I think women would say a lot has been achieved but it's still an unfair society.

So for you to turn around in the middle of your rehabilitation and belittle the guy that's just showed up is a bit rich.

There's nothing progressive about tolerating inferior cultural practices..especially the abhorrent kind. Nothing at all. It's senseless.

I think you're confusing me with another poster there in your second paragraph.
There's simply no comparison that can genuinely be made there anyway. I'm a woman and I don't agree with your angle, by the way.

BlinkingLights · 16-06-2017 05:00PM

Actually the wording inserted after the Marriage Referendum should have made it abundantly clear that this is not constitutional:

"Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex"

As law goes, it doesn't get much clearer than the above.

Supreme Court rules that only first marriage of Lebanese man is valid

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