Can all emergency go through red lights speed etc.?

98-00 · 14-06-2017 7:58pm #1

Are Coast Guard vehicles allowed to go through red lights, speed etc. with light and siren like the other emergency services like fire, ambulance and guards?
What about entering property/land for all services?

Paulzx · 14-06-2017 8:21pm

The Fire Service has extensive powers under during an emergency under the Fire Services Act 1981.

Section 28 is as follows

28.?(1) The person in control at a fire or other emergency may, either personally or by a member of a fire brigade present at the incident or by a member of the Garda S?och?na, or by such other person as he authorises, do (if necessary, by force) all such things as are, in his opinion, necessary or expedient for the purpose of extinguishing the fire or for protecting or rescuing persons or property and, in particular, may?

(a) enter any land or building in which there is reason to believe fire has broken out or the emergency exists or any other land or building;

(b) cause any land or building to be vacated by the occupants;

(c) pull down or demolish any building or part of a building;

(d) use any water supply, whether public or private;

(e) take water from any watercourse, lake, pond or other source, whether natural or artificial;

(f) remove anything from the vicinity of the fire or other emergency.

(2) (a) The person in control at a fire or other emergency may require that any available water supply be controlled from the main pipes in any way that he directs in order to give a greater supply and pressure of water.

(b) He may, if he considers it necessary for the protection of other property, cause water or other extinguishing agent to be directed against that property.

(c) No action shall lie against a fire authority, the person in control at the fire or other emergency or any person acting under his powers under this subsection.

(3) Any person who wilfully obstructs or impedes the exercise by the person in control at a fire or other emergency or by any person under his authority or by any member of the Garda S?och?na of the powers conferred on that person or member by this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(4) Where damage to any property is caused by the exercise of a power conferred by this section, the damage shall, for all purposes and in particular for the purpose of any contract of insurance, be deemed to have been caused by the fire or emergency.

(5) Any clause or condition inserted in a contract of insurance purporting to exclude or having the effect of excluding the risk of damage caused by the exercise of a power conferred by this section shall be void where the risk of damage caused directly by the fire or emergency in relation to which the power is exercised would be covered by the contract.

Ger Roe · 14-06-2017 8:30pm

My long held understanding of the red light issue is that no emergency vehicle has a legal right to break a light. Generally blue light services do it through cooperation with other road users, but if there is an accident caused as a result, they will be liable.

I was told this by an ambulance driver many years ago and I don't think that the legal status has changed since then. Under road traffic law - red means stop for everyone (as far as I am aware).

How could any vehicle, even in an emergency, be given the legal right to put other road users at risk?

civdef · 14-06-2017 9:42pm

It's all in the Legislation:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/25/section/87/enacted/en/html

RiderOnTheStorm · 14-06-2017 11:43pm

All emergency services are exempt from road traffic laws (except drink driving & dangerous driving). Even if they are not "on blues". So, yes, they can go through red lights, break speed limit, be on the phone, park on double yellows, etc. But they are beholding to their own service regulations.

There is debate if coast guard are one of the emergency services, even though they are tasked by 999 calls, and their vehicles are state issued with blue lights.

apc · 15-06-2017 10:04am

You are not exempt from the Road Traffic Act if you are not on an emergency. You only have exemptions under certain sections of the Act, such as you have to wear seatbelts, you have to use indicators, you must obey pedestrian crossings, you must obey pointsmen ( herders, school wardens, gardai on traffic duty), You may treat a red light as a yield right of way among others.

Not withstanding your own service regulations the Law of the Land is the only regulation

Not all Voluntary Organisations have exemptions under the Road traffic Act , only organisations that are named or are declared as resources of same even though they are equipped with Blues and Twos they may not be allowed to use them and any improper use of Blues and Twos is deemed as Dangerous driving and puts the users Licence at risk

Regarding Coast Guard some river/water rescue units have Blues on their personnel vehicles, these are illegal and their insurance will be null and void if they hit you.

source · 15-06-2017 10:46am

apc wrote: »

You are not exempt from the Road Traffic Act if you are not on an emergency. You only have exemptions under certain sections of the Act, such as you have to wear seatbelts, you have to use indicators, you must obey pedestrian crossings, you must obey pointsmen ( herders, school wardens, gardai on traffic duty), You may treat a red light as a yield right of way among others.

Not withstanding your own service regulations the Law of the Land is the only regulation

Not all Voluntary Organisations have exemptions under the Road traffic Act , only organisations that are named or are declared as resources of same even though they are equipped with Blues and Twos they may not be allowed to use them and any improper use of Blues and Twos is deemed as Dangerous driving and puts the users Licence at risk

Regarding Coast Guard some river/water rescue units have Blues on their personnel vehicles, these are illegal and their insurance will be null and void if they hit you.

Actually the legislation as linked by civdef is very clear, the emergency services are exempt from all road traffic legislation with the some exceptions as noted. Mainly drink driving and dangerous driving.

Also the legislation does not state it must be in emergency situations, it does however state 'in the course of their duties'. So this exemption would apply to patrolling as much as an emergency situation.

All services will have their own internal codes on driving of official vehicles which must be obeyed, however the legislation is perfectly clear that an exemption does exist for emergency service personnel while acting in the course of their duty.

apc · 15-06-2017 2:51pm

Right so an ambulance not on an emergency call say returning to its base after dropping casualty at hospital is still has exemptions under the RTA? or would their "Duties" with regard to exemptions under the RTA refer only to emergencies under blues and twos.

Try it in court and see how far you get.

[Deleted User] · 15-06-2017 3:31pm

apc wrote: »

Right so an ambulance not on an emergency call say returning to its base after dropping casualty at hospital is still has exemptions under the RTA? or would their "Duties" with regard to exemptions under the RTA refer only to emergencies under blues and twos.

Try it in court and see how far you get.

The law is the law. Unless a driver is charged with drink driving or one of the dangerous driving offences they get off. Simples.

source · 15-06-2017 3:45pm

apc wrote: »

Right so an ambulance not on an emergency call say returning to its base after dropping casualty at hospital is still has exemptions under the RTA? or would their "Duties" with regard to exemptions under the RTA refer only to emergencies under blues and twos.

Try it in court and see how far you get.

Read the legislation, it's there in black and white and is not in any way ambiguous.

apc · 15-06-2017 4:38pm

foreign wrote: »

The law is the law. Unless a driver is charged with drink driving or one of the dangerous driving offences they get off. Simples.

Excellent thats alright so, but what does the dangerous driving offences mean?

[Deleted User] · 15-06-2017 5:41pm

apc wrote: »

Excellent thats alright so, but what does the dangerous driving offences mean?

An example would be ploughing through a red light without slowing down forcing traffic to take emergency avoidance or causing a crash.

apc · 15-06-2017 9:08pm

foreign wrote: »

An example would be ploughing through a red light without slowing down forcing traffic to take emergency avoidance or causing a crash.

So can he go through a red light without blues and twos?

Regarding dangerous driving, that is open to interpretation and thats where the issue is, what may seem safe to you may not seem safe to the court that takes away your licence. If you have an accident in an emergency vehicle or cause another road user to have an accident you have no exemptions under the RTA. The exemptions only allow you to proceed in a more timely safe manor, they do not give carte blanche to drive any way you like

You do not have the right to go "through" a red light, you may treat a red light as a Yield right of way but the Traffic with the green light still have the right of way and have no obligation to give up the right of way.

Peregrinus · 16-06-2017 1:50am

source wrote: »

Actually the legislation as linked by civdef is very clear, the emergency services are exempt from all road traffic legislation with the some exceptions as noted. Mainly drink driving and dangerous driving.

Also the legislation does not state it must be in emergency situations, it does however state 'in the course of their duties'. So this exemption would apply to patrolling as much as an emergency situation.

All services will have their own internal codes on driving of official vehicles which must be obeyed, however the legislation is perfectly clear that an exemption does exist for emergency service personnel while acting in the course of their duty.

foreign wrote: »

The law is the law. Unless a driver is charged with drink driving or one of the dangerous driving offences they get off. Simples.

source wrote: »

Read the legislation, it's there in black and white and is not in any way ambiguous.

All of these comments overlook one important point; the exemption only applies to the use of a vehicle "where such use does not endanger the safety of road users". So if an emergency services driver e.g. goes through a red light in circumstances where that creates a danger for others, he has no exemption from the laws which make it an offence to go through a red light.

That's quite a big qualification on the exemption.

Victor · 16-06-2017 3:31am

civdef wrote: »

It's all in the Legislation:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/25/section/87/enacted/en/html

That was updated: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/3/section/23/enacted/en/html

Coast Guard, water rescue, RNLI, mountain rescue are not covered, although they could claim mitigating circumstances.

source · 16-06-2017 6:57am

Peregrinus wrote: »

All of these comments overlook one important point; the exemption only applies to the use of a vehicle "where such use does not endanger the safety of road users". So if an emergency services driver e.g. goes through a red light in circumstances where that creates a danger for others, he has no exemption from the laws which make it an offence to go through a red light.

That's quite a big qualification on the exemption.

It hasn't been overlooked at all, that would be dangerous driving, which both foreign and I noted was an exception to the exemption.

Peregrinus · 16-06-2017 7:03am

source wrote: »

It hasn't been overlooked at all, that would be dangerous driving, which both foreign and I noted was an exception to the exemption.

It wouldn't just be the offence of "dangerous driving" contrary to RTA 1961 s. 53; there's no exemption for that in any case because it's one of the offences carved out in s. 87. But if you do something for which an exemption is provided in s. 87, and what you do endangers the safety of road users, then you have no exemption under s. 87. Even if what you do wouldn't amount to dangerous driving contrary to RTA 1961 s. 53, you could be convicted of some other offence.

Victor · 16-06-2017 7:04am

There was a case where an ambulance went through a red light and hit a car that had a green light. Ambulance was held to be 20% responsible (proceeded through junction dangerously, with traffic still moving) and car driver 80% responsible (didn't see big yellow ambulance with flashy blue lights).

Of course, typical car costs €20,000. Typical ambulance costs €250,000. Car driver's insurance had to pay ambulance owner €200,000. Ambulance's insurance had to pay car owner €4,000. Both sides would have had the balance paid by their own insurance.

source · 16-06-2017 8:14am

Peregrinus wrote: »

It wouldn't just be the offence of "dangerous driving" contrary to RTA 1961 s. 53; there's no exemption for that in any case because it's one of the offences carved out in s. 87. But if you do something for which an exemption is provided in s. 87, and what you do endangers the safety of road users, then you have no exemption under s. 87. Even if what you do wouldn't amount to dangerous driving contrary to RTA 1961 s. 53, you could be convicted of some other offence.

Exactly why the driver would be charged for dangerous driving. There is no exemption for driving in a manner which puts other road users in danger, that is dangerous driving.

From the 61 Act

53.—(1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances of the case (including the nature, condition and use of the place and the amount of traffic which then actually is or might reasonably be expected then to be therein) is dangerous to the public.

Peregrinus · 16-06-2017 8:25am

No there's a difference. To be charged under s. 53, you have to "drive . . . in a public place at a speed or in a manner which . . . is dangerous to the public".

But to take yourself outside the exemption, all you have to do is use (NB not "drive") the vehicle in a way that endangers the safety of road users (NB not "the public"). Doesn't matter where you do this, and it doesn't matter whether or not the danger arises from speed or manner of driving.

In other words, there's a range of circumstances that wouldn't leave you liable to prosecution under s. 53, but that would take you outside the s. 87 exemption and leave you liable to prosecution for some other offence. If you use the vehicle in a way that endangers other road users, you can be charged with any relevant RTA offence that you may have committed.

ectoraige · 16-06-2017 11:02am

Victor wrote: »

That was updated: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/3/section/23/enacted/en/html

Coast Guard, water rescue, RNLI, mountain rescue are not covered, although they could claim mitigating circumstances.

I think some of the mountain rescue teams fall under phecc, either directly or as branches of the Irish Red Cross. I'm surprised the Coast Guard don't, CHC do.

Captain Obvious · 19-06-2017 5:08pm

In reality the caveat is never used without an accompanying charge though is it? I've never heard of a case myself.

irishrgr · 22-06-2017 3:57pm

We have the same legal exemption from the traffic Code, we can disregard speed limits, traffic lights, etc. when responding to an emergency however the operator is not relieved from a duty to:
(1) the duty to operate the vehicle with appropriate regard for the safety of all persons; or
(2) the consequences of reckless disregard for the safety of others.
Pretty much the same as in Ireland, the law rarely gives "carte blanche" for anyone to do anything. However, just because you get in an accident, doesn't mean you'll automatically be charged under the law. As a cop, I'd be very hard pressed to give a ticket to the operator of an emergency vehicle unless I had strong evidence he/she was operating recklessly.
Civil liability is different, here it's based on a "preponderance of evidence" as opposed to "beyond a reasonable doubt". The reality is, people are quick to litigate the emergency services for collisions as most agencies will just offer a negotiated settlement to make it go away. It's usually cheaper than court and written off as cost of doing business.
Our traffic code does however, define emergency vehicles more broadly than Ireland and includes language for volunteer agencies. Mind you, your individual insurance company might have a different attitude if they discovered you were "operating an emergency vehicle" :-)

Can all emergency go through red lights speed etc.?

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