2017 UK General Election - 8th June

Dont be at yourself · 09-06-2017 11:29PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

She'll never be allowed fight another election so we enter an unseemly period where she staggers around mortally wounded before the death of her political career is confirmed. One thing that's worth thinking about is how it may be beneficial for Boris or whoever else is sharpening the knives to allow a few weeks of the restarted negotiations to take place with its accompanying negative messages before they take over. Whoever comes in will have to fight an election in the medium term so it may be no harm to allow May absorb some more of the coming damage before her political corpse is discarded.

A great point. If I were a Tory planning a heave, I would allow May take the bullets on the initial points the EU insists be agreed upon; the divorce bill, the fate of EU nationals living in U.K., and the Irish border. She'll likely have to concede ground on all three (ironically the DUP will be somewhat aligned with the EU regarding the border issue), so it makes sense to let her take the fall for those, and have Boris or another swoop in to 'rescue' the Brexit negotiations.

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-06-2017 11:31PM

prinzeugen wrote: »

As I have already pointed out to you, they do.

and as I have already explained to you, they are contracted to do that by private passenger operators

DRS are a freight movement company and provide minor lease out locos/coaches

prinzeugen · 09-06-2017 11:45PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

and as I have already explained to you, they are contracted to do that by private passenger operators

DRS are a freight movement company and provide minor lease out locos/coaches

And train crew. They could not run trains if they were not a passenger operator.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-06-2017 12:07AM

Lordy. Perhaps we can we agree that having a nationalised rail system is normal in many capitalist countries and leave it at that. Same for the postal system. Corbyn's proposed Britain doesn't seem any more socialist or statist than Ireland is right now.

A Dub in Glasgo · 10-06-2017 12:08AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

And train crew. They could not run trains if they were not a passenger operator.

You seem to either ignore or are ignorant of the requirements to run passenger services. Not any two bit company can loco up and run them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_operating_trains_in_the_United_Kingdom

Hotblack Desiato · 10-06-2017 12:23AM

What's funny in retrospect is that even Maggie Thatcher was willing to pour billions of pounds of taxpayers' money into British Leyland (fearful of a couple of hundred thousand job losses) and didn't privatise British Rail. The former withered on the vine once state support was finally withdrawn, circa 1986, the latter was only privatised following Major's unexpected 1992 election win. Maggie went a lot more right wing after she died.

prinzeugen · 10-06-2017 01:50AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You seem to either ignore or are ignorant of the requirements to run passenger services. Not any two bit company can loco up and run them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_operating_trains_in_the_United_Kingdom

You must read on the difference between franchise and operator.

Was Hull trains, or Grand Central franchises?

No. Open access. Own the stock and run trains. You should go away read about it.

Also the neutral livery is becoming the norm. GWR, Overground, ScotRail, are all doing it.

Virgin east coast will be the last.

Persephone kindness · 10-06-2017 02:05AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF don't pretend they didn't play a part in the conflict. That is the difference here. They have members who were in the IRA.
They are also not religious fundamentalists depriving large amounts of people of the rights they have everywhere else in these islands.

Different animals and the British are finding that out, big time. Arlene shoots herself and her party in the foot again.

I hope Ruth Davidson exposes them for everything they are.

This they are both awful ..but not the same. I just hope no one feels now that it's ok to support anyone. It just seems there are no standards now. And no integrity.

I want parties here to keep their promise about not going into govt with SF.

Just because this has happened we don't have to make it worse.

Persephone kindness · 10-06-2017 02:07AM

A Little Pony wrote: »

So if Sinn Fein were in a position that the only way to get a government arranged for now was to go into coalition or supply and demand arrangement with FG you would be opposed to it?

Personally yes. I know you were not asking me. I am disgusted with May as much as any of you. But I would be against it.

Persephone kindness · 10-06-2017 02:11AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You've spent all day penning Sinn Feinn's political epitaph the day after they garnered more Westminster seats than ever before hot on the heels from their best Assembly election performance to date. You may personally hate SF, but there is no electoral data to support the claims you have spouted in your posts on this thread all day sir.

Politics is not always about voting. It's about relationships and diplomacy. The nature of diplomatic relationships in NI means something diff for SF.

Their followers and support will be demanding they take a stance. I am very very worried.

interlocked · 10-06-2017 03:24AM

I'd put a fair few bob on, that the majority of Britain would wish that statesmen like John Major and John Smith were facing each other across the floor of the House of Commons today.

Even the very notion of Boris Johnson being PM illustrates the depth that UK Politics has sunk.

Persephone kindness · 10-06-2017 04:14AM

interlocked wrote: »

I'd put a fair few bob on, that the majority of Britain would wish that statesmen like John Major and John Smith were facing each other across the floor of the House of Commons today.

Even the very notion of Boris Johnson being PM illustrates the depth that UK Politics has sunk.

David Cameron rejected a coalition with the DUP. I respect that. Nice man. Gentleman.

Zubeneschamali · 10-06-2017 06:03AM

flatty wrote: »

she had never really been aware of the DUP, and had hence done some research.
Visibly upset, she said, and I quote, "but they're nothing but thugs and criminals".

That's a label you might apply to some of them, but many are just ordinary law-abiding bigoted religious lunatics.

spiralism · 10-06-2017 07:47AM

SF stating now that the Tories have breached the Good Friday Agreement through favouring Loyalists and giving them an unfair advantage by putting them in power in Westminster, a more than fair appraisal of the situation given the circumstances with the institutions in deadlock right now and a DUP backed govt likely to oversee direct rule.

This could get messy.

May's cynical clinging to power is actually undermining the GFA now, this surely cant last very long.

Chester Copperpot · 10-06-2017 08:13AM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

David Cameron rejected a coalition with the DUP. I respect that. Nice man. Gentleman.

I would second that. He even brought the pig to dinner afterwards

bobbyss · 10-06-2017 08:24AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

They're counted by hand.

But, because of the absurdly simplistic voting system, they can be counted much more quickly than in Ireland.

Yes of course.

So I suppose they don't need to spend, what, E90m on electronic voting machines/computers then.

Persephone kindness · 10-06-2017 08:37AM

spiralism wrote: »

May's cynical clinging to power is actually undermining the GFA now, this surely cant last very long.

Several UK voters have said the same thing.

Dyr · 10-06-2017 08:59AM

spiralism wrote: »

SF stating now that the Tories have breached the Good Friday Agreement through favouring Loyalists and giving them an unfair advantage by putting them in power in Westminster, a more than fair appraisal of the situation given the circumstances with the institutions in deadlock right now and a DUP backed govt likely to oversee direct rule.

This could get messy.

May's cynical clinging to power is actually undermining the GFA now, this surely cant last very long.

You'd wonder to what degree that's a fair assesement of the GFA/SAA

They wont get any support from Prince Leo for that angle anyway.

10-06-2017 09:11AM

spiralism wrote: »

SF stating now that the Tories have breached the Good Friday Agreement through favouring Loyalists and giving them an unfair advantage by putting them in power in Westminster, a more than fair appraisal of the situation given the circumstances with the institutions in deadlock right now and a DUP backed govt likely to oversee direct rule.

This could get messy.

May's cynical clinging to power is actually undermining the GFA now, this surely cant last very long.

That's gas!

SF now whining that their refusal to participate in the legislature to which they are elected gives an unfair advantage to those who do? On what planet does that makes sense? Are they so removed from politics that they forgot that the rules allow for this, and they didn't think of it when they signed up to the GFA?

FrancieBrady · 10-06-2017 09:16AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's gas!

SF now whining that their refusal to participate in the legislature to which they are elected gives an unfair advantage to those who do? On what planet does that makes sense? Are they so removed from politics that they forgot that the rules allow for this, and they didn't think of it when they signed up to the GFA?

The British cannot take sides, they have agreed to be neutral. Even if there are difficulties.

If you have done a deal with one side to keep you in power then you are not neutral.

LuckyLloyd · 10-06-2017 09:20AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's gas!

SF now whining that their refusal to participate in the legislature to which they are elected gives an unfair advantage to those who do? On what planet does that makes sense? Are they so removed from politics that they forgot that the rules allow for this, and they didn't think of it when they signed up to the GFA?

Even if SF participated in the legislature they could not be in government (unless May invited them both to join the supply and confidence arrangement, but we all know hammering out such a deal would be unrealistic). It's a simple violation of a simple principle - neutrality in the affairs of Northern Ireland.

Persephone kindness · 10-06-2017 09:21AM

Bambi wrote: »

You'd wonder to what degree that's a fair assesement of the GFA/SAA

They wont get any support from Prince Leo for that angle anyway.

He will have to deal with them. Like any other UK govt.

He can't really make comment he will have to be diplomatic whatever his personal feelings.

solodeogloria · 10-06-2017 09:24AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's gas!

SF now whining that their refusal to participate in the legislature to which they are elected gives an unfair advantage to those who do? On what planet does that makes sense? Are they so removed from politics that they forgot that the rules allow for this, and they didn't think of it when they signed up to the GFA?

Good morning!

Indeed - I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone votes for Sinn Féin at Westminster. Every vote is just another seat that stands empty. I was sad to see the decline of the SDLP at this election. I think if I voted in NI it would probably be for Alliance or the SDLP.

As for the point that David Cameron didn't go into coalition with the DUP, remember that he didn't go into coalition with the DUP because he didn't need to. Theresa May is in a rock and a hard place with this result. If Cameron had returned a hung parliament in 2015 I have no doubt that he would have done the same thing as May here.

It's a bloody horrible result, but a government must be formed. What is the alternative given the numbers?

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

10-06-2017 09:24AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The British cannot take sides, they have agreed to be neutral. Even if there are difficulties.

If you have done a deal with one side to keep you in power then you are not neutral.

They run candidates in the 26 counties on the basis that, if they get into power, that legislature will advocate for a United Ireland. Clearly they don't see one legislature has to remain neutral, but demands it of the other. It's arcane reasoning, and illogical.

FrancieBrady · 10-06-2017 09:27AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Even if SF participated in the legislature they could not be in government (unless May invited them both to join the supply and confidence arrangement, but we all know hammering out such a deal would be unrealistic). It's a simple violation of a simple principle - neutrality in the affairs of Northern Ireland.

They discussed this on the Any Answers programme on Radio 4 last night.

Will Leo stop Britain's Tories from walking all over an international agreement in their own selfish interests?

My bets are on a simpering FG, 'deferential, politic, glad to be of use' strategy. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady · 10-06-2017 09:29AM

Deleted User wrote: »

They run candidates in the 26 counties on the basis that, if they get into power, that legislature will advocate for a United Ireland. Clearly they don't see one legislature has to remain neutral, but demands it of the other. It's arcane reasoning, and illogical.

Regardless of what SF do.

The British are mandated to be neutral in an international agreement with Ireland.

Persephone kindness · 10-06-2017 09:29AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They discussed this on the Any Answers programme on Radio 4 last night.

Will Leo stop Britain's Tories from walking all over an international agreement in their own selfish interests?

My bets are on a simpering FG, 'deferential, politic, glad to be of use' strategy. :rolleyes:

I think being aggressive would only make things worse.

Enzokk · 10-06-2017 09:30AM

I am more worried that Theresa May has already indicated that she has the votes to form a government with the DUP, yet they haven't had negotiations yet on what the deal will be like. That is dangerous from Theresa May. What if the DUP asks for support that goes against the agreements that forged the peace in NI? Has she actually thought this through? She really is one of the worst politicians out there and arguably will go down as the worst PM ever. The damage she has done is staggering and there is still so much more damage that she can do.

FrancieBrady · 10-06-2017 09:31AM

Persephone kindness wrote: »

I think being aggressive would only make things worse.

Didn't take long for the stock FG reaction. :rolleyes:

They don't have to be aggressive, they need to be strong and say this is not a runner under the agreement.

mugsymugsy · 10-06-2017 09:31AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

I think if I voted in NI it would probably be for Alliance or the SDLP.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Not taking your post out context but highlighting this part and I would fully agree but with the first past the post system in the UK it doesn't lend itself to be able to vote who you want to in some cases.

You have to sometimes tactically vote the lesser of two evils as in would you prefer a nationalist or unionist party and then you jump on the bandwagon of whoever is biggest in your area to not split the vote.

If they changed the system to STV or AV then it could allow for alliance / greens / ukip (not a fan but their voice should be heard) to all have a small say rather than currently what happens.

2017 UK General Election - 8th June

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