London terror attack confirmed by Met Police

EazyD · 04-06-2017 08:27PM

Phoebas wrote: »

She got stared at and managed to read that as 'hatred of our values and ways of life'.
That's quite the leap.

Would it have to include outright confrontation/violence for it to register as blatant intolerance?

Phoebas · 04-06-2017 08:30PM

EazyD wrote: »

Would it have to include outright confrontation/violence for it to register as blatant intolerance?

Hard to say, but I think I'd be needing more than the way someone looked at me before I concluded 'hatred of our values and ways of life'.

You've downgraded to 'blatant intolerance', so I guess that's progress.

Timberrrrrrrr · 04-06-2017 08:32PM

EazyD wrote: »

Would it have to include outright confrontation/violence for it to register as blatant intolerance?

I once stared at a punk with a bright pink Mohawk haircut, seriously this was about 3 foot high and bright pink! Does that mean I hated him it was intolerant if him?

conorhal · 04-06-2017 08:33PM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I'm often surprised by the amount of patience the Left has had for Islam, a Religion which shares almost none of their values. It's something of a strange moral and ethical blind-spot that I find difficult to understand.

Here, in Ireland, we've experienced what it was like to live in Nation subservient to Religious dogma. We understand how it compromises our freedom of choice and expression, our morals and our ethics. Yet here we are, in spite of what has happened in the Middle-East, North Africa, and on the streets of Europe, we are still so reluctant to address the root of the problem:

Islam desperately needs to be humbled by secularism to the degree that Christianity has been in the West in the past Century.

They are operating from the flawed principle that 'my enemies enemy is my friend'.
That has never proved to be the case, just ask the left wing socialists that sparked the uprising in Iran or the Egyptian progressives that supported the Arab spring. (Or the Americans that backed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan against the Russians for that matter, where did that lead?)

NIMAN · 04-06-2017 08:33PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The reason why they could never take Europe was our strong leadership. Ruthless leadership from the Romans, the Catholic Church, Napoleon, the Austro-Hungarians, Fascism/Communism etc, they didn't have a chance.

Now for the first time in Europe's organised history we have modernised and weak leadership but these guys we are facing still have the same mindset of medieval battle.

They say the pen is mightier than the sword. But you don't bring a pen to a swordfight. This is a sword fight and it needs medieval tactics to win.

did we not have our many crusades to conquer them too though?

04-06-2017 08:34PM

Phoebas wrote: »

It might in the future, but I haven't seen evidence of it so far, despite the mosque being there for 20 years.

You described how 'white flight' begins. But it hasn't begun.

For many years I lived in an inner city areal in a small English town, when I first moved there it was mostly English, when I left, it was mainly Asian.

White English/Irish or Scottish sold up and moved out to be replaced by Asians, if that's not "white flight" then what is?

Tomatoheadfred · 04-06-2017 08:34PM

Phoebas wrote: »

It might in the future, but I haven't seen evidence of it so far, despite the mosque being there for 20 years.

You described how 'white flight' begins. But it hasn't begun.

White flight has begun. RTEs Prime time had a show dedicated to it back in the mid noughties!

Widdershins · 04-06-2017 08:36PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The reason why they could never take Europe was our strong leadership. Ruthless leadership from the Romans, the Catholic Church, Napoleon, the Austro-Hungarians, Fascism/Communism etc, they didn't have a chance.

Now for the first time in Europe's organised history we have modernised and weak leadership but these guys we are facing still have the same mindset of medieval battle.

They say the pen is mightier than the sword. But you don't bring a pen to a swordfight. This is a sword fight and it needs medieval tactics to win.

I see nothing wrong with that but the problem is in identifying the enemy. How are we going to do that? We can only try to be prepared before they attack each time.

A number of my normally very mild friends are considering the need for some kind of weapon. As someone said, even our police aren't armed.

conorhal · 04-06-2017 08:36PM

Phoebas wrote: »

It might in the future, but I haven't seen evidence of it so far, despite the mosque being there for 20 years.

You described how 'white flight' begins. But it hasn't begun.

If it 'might be the future'? Then perhaps you should consider that evidence of everywhere it does happen and correct course before it does? Or should we just cross our fingers and keep repeating 'Ireland is different because...?'

Danzy · 04-06-2017 08:36PM

NIMAN wrote: »

did we not have our many crusades to conquer them too though?

If you are referring to the crusades then no, that was a reactive push back against a militant faith that had wiped out half of Christendom's territory and they presumed, that they were next.

EazyD · 04-06-2017 08:38PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Hard to say, but I think I'd be needing more than the way someone looked at me before I concluded 'hatred of our values and ways of life'.

You've downgraded to 'blatant intolerance', so I guess that's progress.

Note the use of and/or in my last paragraph. Granted neither I nor my mother had direct interactions with these individuals to be able to gauge what "grade" of such (whether it be mild intolerance or outright hatred) could be attributed to them.

I find your angle strange to say the least.

Dyr · 04-06-2017 08:38PM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I'm often surprised by the amount of patience the Left has had for Islam, a Religion which shares almost none of their values. It's something of a strange moral and ethical blind-spot that I find difficult to understand.
.

It's not really a left thing, it's more a middle class liberal thing. Islam falls under umbrella of multi-multiculturalism and so any criticism of Islam must treated as racism.

Its utterly myopic but it's coming from a section of society that's so assured of it's own pre-eminence that it rarely challenges it's own beliefs

EazyD · 04-06-2017 08:40PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I once stared at a punk with a bright pink Mohawk haircut, seriously this was about 3 foot high and bright pink! Does that mean I hated him it was intolerant if him?

If it were to occur on an ongoing basis to such an extent that it made that individual seriously uncomfortable in familiar surroundings then yes it very well could be to a lot of people.

YFlyer · 04-06-2017 08:40PM

conorhal wrote: »

Here's a hand informative history of the number of times Islam has attempted to conquer Europe since it's inception by a warlord that mandated it be spread at the point of a sword.
For fourteen hundered years it has had European ambitions.

Never, I imagine, in it's imperialist ambitions did it ever conceive that it would be invited to to complete it's task.

A load of tripe. Its like that video of Jesus rose from the death after three days.

Phoebas · 04-06-2017 08:41PM

Tomatoheadfred wrote: »

White flight has begun. RTEs Prime time had a show dedicated to it back in the mid noughties!

Where has it begun and what's the evidence for it.

Deleted User wrote: »

For many years I lived in an inner city areal in a small English town, when I first moved there it was mostly English, when I left, it was mainly Asian.

White English/Irish or Scottish sold up and moved out to be replaced by Asians, if that's not "white flight" then what is?

I don't suggest that white flight doesn't exist or even that its not possible here. But, so far, I haven't seen it here. I hope it doesn't occur, but some people seem to be very antagonistic towards Muslims, so I guess its possible in the future.

I think the makeup of our Muslim population is quite different than the UK (more professionals, less from poorer socioeconomic groups), so I'm confident.

conorhal · 04-06-2017 08:42PM

NIMAN wrote: »

did we not have our many crusades to conquer them too though?

Well I refer you to the vid I posted, educate yourself. BTW Islam were the conquerors, the Crusades were a (limited ineffective) response to conquest.

Give the vid 4 minutes of your time and tell me, who's invading who? Who's the imperialists here?

conorhal · 04-06-2017 08:43PM

YFlyer wrote: »

A load of tripe. Its like that video of Jesus rose from the death after three days.

Well that refutes it, you think it's BS. Show me it's not.

Danzy · 04-06-2017 08:44PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Where has it begun and what's the evidence for it.

I don't suggest that white flight doesn't exist or even that its not possible here. But, so far, I haven't seen it here. I hope it doesn't occur, but some people seem to be very antagonistic towards Muslims, so I guess its possible in the future.

I think the makeup of our Muslim population is quite different than the UK (more professionals, less from poorer socioeconomic groups), so I'm confident.

While that is true and may help, worryingly there is more Jihadis per capita going to fight than England has.

Phoebas · 04-06-2017 08:45PM

EazyD wrote: »

Note the use of and/or in my last paragraph. Granted neither I nor my mother had direct interactions with these individuals to be able to gauge what "grade" of such (whether it be mild intolerance or outright hatred) could be attributed to them.

I find your angle strange to say the least.

And yet you settled on 'hatred of our values and ways of life'.
I find your angle strange to say the least.

Maybe yourself or your mother should attempt some direct interactions with some Muslim folk. They might put your mind to rest.

Sound of Silence · 04-06-2017 08:46PM

Bambi wrote: »

It's not really a left thing, it's more a middle class liberal thing. Islam falls under umbrella of multi-multiculturalism and so any criticism of Islam must treated as racism.

Its utterly myopic but it's coming from a section of society that's so assured of it's own pre-eminence that it rarely challenges it's own beliefs

I will concede to your point!

I've also found that some especially Religious folks on the Right tend also to be quite reluctant to condemn attacks that spawn from some perceived Blasphemy.

For example, Pope Francis (not necessarily that he's on the Right) said of the Charlie Hebdo Massacre: "if you swear at my mother – or Islam – 'expect a punch". Here he was sort of implicitly condoning a violent response to blasphemy. And why wouldn't he! It would be in his interest for blasphemy to receive some sort of penalty!

ligerdub · 04-06-2017 08:49PM

Phoebas wrote: »

It might in the future, but I haven't seen evidence of it so far, despite the mosque being there for 20 years.

You described how 'white flight' begins. But it hasn't begun.

White flight is perhaps a misnomer. What is happening is that there are many factors in play leading to what could be termed indigenous people having smaller families, remaining unmarried, or just not having children. This is also happening at a time where immigration is a lot higher than what it used to be.

The look, feel and culture of European nations is changing dramatically.

There are a certain section of people who think this change, which is happening at a fairly brisk pace, is great, and that the newcomers will hold your hand and we'll all live happily side by side here! Now, they might be right, but in my opinion the early signs are not good, not good at all! Merit or otherwise, it is happening.

There also seems to be a relative percentage of acceptance/expectation of a certain level of fanaticism and random acts of terrorism. This bar was always there of course, but it seems that bar is higher now, massively so! Hashtags, flowers and concerts are on the agenda now, and that's ok for the moment. It will reach a point though where that approach won't work anymore, and when that happens then it's time to step aside because Daddy's home and it's time to do homework!

Sweetemotion · 04-06-2017 08:51PM

Phoebas wrote: »

And yet you settled on 'hatred of our values and ways of life'.
I find your angle strange to say the least.

Maybe yourself or your mother should attempt some direct interactions with some Muslim folk. They might put your mind to rest.

I find your angle strange also.

C'mon, you know why they were looking at his/her mother like that but you keep trying to deflect the situation why? I don't know.

Sweetemotion · 04-06-2017 08:53PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I once stared at a punk with a bright pink Mohawk haircut, seriously this was about 3 foot high and bright pink! Does that mean I hated him it was intolerant if him?

That is just stupid and you know it.

conorhal · 04-06-2017 08:54PM

Phoebas wrote: »

I don't suggest that white flight doesn't exist or even that its not possible here. But, so far, I haven't seen it here. I hope it doesn't occur, but some people seem to be very antagonistic towards Muslims, so I guess its possible in the future.

Do you imagine that your 'hope' counts for something, or that action to prevent it does? You might as well 'pray' it doesn't happen here.

Phoebas wrote: »

I think the makeup of our Muslim population is quite different than the UK (more professionals, less from poorer socioeconomic groups), so I'm confident.

Your confidence is misguided, because we used to operate a sane immigration policy and now our immigration is driven by an insane asylum policy. Tell me, where do you imagine that will lead? Gone are the days that the majority of non EU migrants arrived with a visa and the Supreme Court has just ruled that asylum seekers should be granted the right to work here doubling down on that insane policy by creating a further draw.

Phoebas · 04-06-2017 08:55PM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

I find your angle strange also.

C'mon, you know why they were looking at their mother like that but keep trying to deflect the situation why? I don't know.

How could I know? The only person who could truly know is the person who did the staring.

Interpreting a stare as 'hatred of our values and ways of life' seems a massive leap of the imagination to me.

EazyD · 04-06-2017 08:57PM

Phoebas wrote: »

And yet you settled on 'hatred of our values and ways of life'.
I find your angle strange to say the least.

Maybe yourself or your mother should attempt some direct interactions with some Muslim folk. They might put your mind to rest.

Did I settle on it? Last time I checked 2 of my paragraphs described the incident(s), the last a closing statement (again I draw your attention to the use of and/or).

It would appear that you like to cherrypick a segment of my comment and run with it to fit your agenda. Perhaps pull the woolly hat up over your eyes and read my comment thoroughly.

Sweetemotion · 04-06-2017 08:58PM

Phoebas wrote: »

How could I know? The only person who could truly know is the person who did the staring.

Interpreting a stare as 'hatred of our values and ways of life' seems a massive leap of the imagination to me.

Looking down on someone usually implies that no matter what it seems to you.

Why are people acting dumb?

Boaty · 04-06-2017 09:00PM

I see that about 50 bullets were fired by police, any videos? I want to see the scum get shot.

Phoebas · 04-06-2017 09:01PM

conorhal wrote: »

Do you imagine that your 'hope' counts for something, or that action to prevent it does? You might as well 'pray' it doesn't happen here.

I don't do praying, but I do think we could do practical stuff to encourage integration.

conorhal wrote: »

Your confidence is misguided, because we used to operate a sane immigration policy and now our immigration is driven by an insane asylum policy. Tell me, where do you imagine that will lead? Gone are the days that the majority of non EU migrants arrived with a visa and the Supreme Court has just ruled that asylum seekers should be granted the right to work here doubling down on that insane policy by creating a further draw.

Asylum is really just a tiny proportion of our total immigration. I wouldn't be as pessimistic as you.

ligerdub · 04-06-2017 09:02PM

I think we're probably less at risk of mass immigration than the rest of Europe for several reasons.

One is that we're not exactly flush with cash here, and that although things have improved, the streets aren't paved with gold just yet. They'd much rather go to the UK or France or the like. We've found it hard enough to have our own young people stay here!

We're also almost the furthest point away from what could be classified as a Muslim country.

As an island nation with a relatively small population it would not lead to a knock on effect in any material terms. So Ireland becomes a high percentage Muslim state? Big deal.

Church and state are quite intrinsically linked here, even today.

Ireland has little/zero presence as a colonial master of what is now a Muslim country, or through other geopolitical matters such as war or the like. The sort of two way transfer akin to France and Algeria does not exist.

Our weather is not appealing. This may sound churlish, trite or otherwise, but it is at least a factor.

London terror attack confirmed by Met Police

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