We need to properly develop our sporting infrastructure

MarinersBlues · 20-05-2017 12:00PM #1

The whole country should be working off municipal stadiums.

25k and 50k stadiums hardly a mile from each other in Limerick.
Three different sports venues in Cork and Galway, the largest of which (45k Parc Ui Chaoimh in Cork and 26k Pearse Stadium Galway) are totally under utilised 11.5 months of the year.

The GAA have a HUGE stadium infrastructure that they have built with lots of support from the state along with their own investment.
It is a massive waste of resources on their part. If they allowed other sporting organisations to contribute to the construction, development, and maintenance of these grounds they would be in far better condition for their patrons.

The fact that we have FORTY stadiums with a capacity of 10,000 or greater with a population of 4.5 million is mental.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums_in_Ireland_by_capacity
Around 35 of those stadiums do not allow anything but GAA to be played there and are completely under utilised. It is a complete waste of investment and resources from both the GAA and the State.

We need to get the Government to force the sporting organisations to work together for the betterment of our society. Pool resources to have one large and one small stadium in each population centre that are run and maintained properly and are available for ALL sporting occasions depending on demand.

MarinersBlues · 20-05-2017 12:03PM

Ah crap the title got cut off.

Should read "We need to properly develop our sporting infrastructure"

Thanks!

buried · 20-05-2017 12:18PM

Pearse Stadium in Galway is a total disaster. On the very western edge of Galway city, so you have to go through the entire centre and its small medieval streets to get to it. And then its a absolute nightmare to get back out of it. Unless you want to get out the other side which means swimming in the Atlantic ocean. Somebody was really taking and probably having a p!ss when that place was chosen for development.

The_Valeyard · 20-05-2017 12:33PM

buried wrote: »

Pearse Stadium in Galway is a total disaster. On the very western edge of Galway city, so you have to go through the entire centre and its small medieval streets to get to it. And then its a absolute nightmare to get back out of it. Unless you want to get out the other side which means swimming in the Atlantic ocean. Somebody was really taking and probably having a p!ss when that place was chosen for development.

Always cold
Always windy
Always raining

MarinersBlues · 20-05-2017 12:44PM

buried wrote: »

Pearse Stadium in Galway is a total disaster. On the very western edge of Galway city, so you have to go through the entire centre and its small medieval streets to get to it. And then its a absolute nightmare to get back out of it. Unless you want to get out the other side which means swimming in the Atlantic ocean. Somebody was really taking and probably having a p!ss when that place was chosen for development.

If they sold it and pooled their resources with the other sports bodies in Galway they could develop a two decent, (20k and 5-10k) stadiums, fit for purpose in better locations and have some cash to invest in facilities for clubs or inter-county teams.

_Kaiser_ · 20-05-2017 12:52PM

I'd much rather we develop our public transport infrastructure to be honest - especially in Dublin.

Would benefit far more and encourage further investment.

Peregrine · 20-05-2017 12:56PM

MarinersBlues wrote: »

The whole country should be working off municipal stadiums.

Municipal stadiums often end up poorly maintained. Pitches and seats are more likely to be maintained properly if the team/organisation owns the stadium as opposed to the city/county council. Although, in the case of a lot of GAA stadiums, that's not always the case.

MarinersBlues wrote: »

25k and 50k stadiums hardly a mile from each other in Limerick.

50k is too big to Munster (and its clubs), 26k is too small for GAA. Gaelic Grounds is a **** hole compared to Thomond Park. IRFU/Munster paid a pretty penny to develop Thomond Park and Munster are very happy with it. They're not going anywhere. Munster beat the crap out the pitch throughout the season too. If Munster and GAA were to use the same stadium, the pitch would be used all year. Plus rugby and soccer have different pitch dimensions to GAA.

MarinersBlues wrote: »

Three different sports venues in Cork and Galway, the largest of which (45k Parc Ui Chaoimh in Cork and 26k Pearse Stadium Galway) are totally under utilised 11.5 months of the year.

There's at least four notable stadiums in Cork. PUC, PUR, Musgrave Park and Turner's Cross. I don't know how much use PUR would get once PUC is finished. PUC and PUR are entirely unsuitable for Munster and Cork City FC.

There may be merit in a joint Munster/Cork City stadium in Cork. But you'd have to look at the amount of use the pitch would get and the requirements of both parties. Munster are satisfied with terracing whereas Turners Cross is all-seated.

In Galway, Pearse is a nightmare and would be way too big for Connacht. The Sportsground is awful too and they'd move if there was a suitable alternative. There has been talk about a municipal stadium in Galway and it's probably the only one I'd support but the setup needs to be managed very closely.

Looking at raw numbers just isn't enough.

20-05-2017 01:09PM

And we need to consider more investment in sports and pastimes that we should excel at, where we have the amenities but suspect the organisations get pittance. I wonder how much Government money has gone into classic outdoor activities like mountain and trail running, mountain biking, rock climbing, orienteering etc. You go abroad and try these events and the gulf in class, and facilities such as access to such activities, is a different level.

ArmaniJeanss · 20-05-2017 01:11PM

I agree with the sentiment, and its noticeable travelling through small towns in say France that facilities are generally shared between the various local sports.

But even if the politics and the history elements could be sorted out (unlikely), there's still a problem in that soccer can't really share with GAA because of the field sizes - a soccer pitch is effectively lost within a GAA pitch and it would just kill the atmosphere to play at such a ground. Would be like having a couple of running tracks and a greyhound course between the fans and the pitch, a total turnoff for fans.
It worked (sort of) at Croke Pk purely because its built high and there was 70K in attendance at each game.

Yamanoto · 20-05-2017 01:30PM

MarinersBlues wrote: »

If they allowed other sporting organisations to contribute to the construction, development, and maintenance of these grounds they would be in far better condition for their patrons.

Is this not happening already, to bring stadia up to the technical standard required for Ireland's 2023 Rugby World Cup bid?

MarinersBlues · 20-05-2017 02:00PM

Peregrine wrote: »

Municipal stadiums often end up poorly maintained. Pitches and seats are more likely to be maintained properly if the team/organisation owns the stadium as opposed to the city/county council. Although, in the case of a lot of GAA stadiums, that's not always the case.

I would propose any stadiums would have their own management team who get funding from the sporting organisations according to how much they use the stadium and public funding. They could also schedule events for the wider community as a method of generating income. All of this money would be used for maintenance and development

Peregrine wrote: »

50k is too big to Munster (and its clubs), 26k is too small for GAA. Gaelic Grounds is a **** hole compared to Thomond Park. IRFU/Munster paid a pretty penny to develop Thomond Park and Munster are very happy with it. They're not going anywhere. Munster beat the crap out the pitch throughout the season too. If Munster and GAA were to use the same stadium, the pitch would be used all year. Plus rugby and soccer have different pitch dimensions to GAA.

There are days when Munster could fill alot of the 50k. Like a European q final maybe even today if they priced the tickets accordingly. They would have that option if the two stadiums were available. Apart from Munster final day the GAA have no need for 50k. They could use a smaller stadium for league and U21 games.

If a stadium was getting enough use and money through the gate is resodding prohibitively expensive?

Peregrine wrote: »

There's at least four notable stadiums in Cork. PUC, PUR, Musgrave Park and Turner's Cross. I don't know how much use PUR would get once PUC is finished. PUC and PUR are entirely unsuitable for Munster and Cork City FC.

There may be merit in a joint Munster/Cork City stadium in Cork. But you'd have to look at the amount of use the pitch would get and the requirements of both parties. Munster are satisfied with terracing whereas Turners Cross is all-seated.

I don't think I have the answer for every particular town, and I don't know Cork particularly well. The point I'm making is that the stadia distribution is not optimum under the current system. There should be more joined up thinking on a national basis.

Peregrine wrote: »

In Galway, Pearse is a nightmare and would be way too big for Connacht. The Sportsground is awful too and they'd move if there was a suitable alternative. There has been talk about a municipal stadium in Galway and it's probably the only one I'd support but the setup needs to be managed very closely.

Looking at raw numbers just isn't enough.

I'm from Galway so I have an opinion here.
If the sportsground was developed fully you could fit a 20k stadium on that site, along with a much needed multi-story carpark. If you had a proper engineer/architect I'm sure there could be a way to have retractable terraces to address pitch sizes.
Eamonn Deacy park is a fine example of a well run tidy low capcity stadium.
Tuam Stadium is the very definition of a ****-hole that is unnecessary in the bigger picture.
Pearse Stadium is just wrong on sooo many levels.Location, facilites and lack of use. It gets filled maybe once every two years, when the footballers play Mayo.

MarinersBlues · 20-05-2017 02:13PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

Is this not happening already, to bring stadia up to the technical standard required for Ireland's 2023 Rugby World Cup bid?

It may happen in some stadiums on a one off basis but my main point is allowing all teams access to decent facilites that will cater for the sporting public.

For example Dundalk having to play their Euorpean games in the Aviva last year which was too big for them. If there was a municipal stadium in Louth or Monaghan/Meath/Cavan they could have had a more suitable venue closer to home. While in the rest of the country there are more than 20 stadia with a capacity of 20K plus that basically lie idle for the whole year bar one inter-county game and the county final.

20-05-2017 08:25PM

MarinersBlues wrote: »

There are days when Munster could fill alot of the 50k. Like a European q final maybe even today if they priced the tickets accordingly. They would have that option if the two stadiums were available. Apart from Munster final day the GAA have no need for 50k. They could use a smaller stadium for league and U21 games.

There are also days when you couldn't give away Munster rugby tickets, and suspect there are a few days in the Munster GAA calendar that would see tens of thousands turn up, a lot of hurling fixtures involving Cork, Tipp, Waterford and to a lesser extent Limerick and Clare.

Guy:Incognito · 20-05-2017 08:28PM

The less football and rugby grounds mixed with senior Gaa grounds the better. Watching football and rugby on full size Gaa pitches is like having a running track around it, it's ****.

please helpThank YOU · 20-05-2017 08:31PM

Thomond Park Stadium Limerick the holy grail of rugby powerful Stadium one of the best in the world.

20-05-2017 08:39PM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Thomond Park Stadium Limerick the holy grail of rugby powerful Stadium one of the best in the world.

When the going is good. It has also seen attendances of less than a third of capacity in competitive games.

andekwarhola · 20-05-2017 08:56PM

There doesn't seem to be much joined up thinking re: the amount of underused GAA stadiums in the country. I suspect it's often a personal white elephant thing: build a trophy ground in a certain parish even if it's going to be underused or often just to try and drain sports grants away from other (read: foreign) sports.

Rugby generally seems to has decent venues?

A lot of LOI stadiums are terrible shape, not helped obviously by the disinterest of the public and the incompetence of the FAI. The best ones in the country are usually not owned by the clubs in question like Tallaght stadium or Turners Cross. Dalymount as well when it's finished, presumably.

theoneeyedman · 20-05-2017 08:57PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When the going is good. It has also seen attendances of less than a third of capacity in competitive games.

How many were there today for the pro 12 semi final, looked maybe 60% full at the most on TV.

Lots of passive condemnation of the GAA here for developing grounds around the country. For all of their faults, they are the only organisation in the country with the get up and go to put facilities on practically every parish in the country. True, they get some grant funding from LOTTO etc, but in general this is miniscule in relation to the money raised and the value of the facilities.
The suggestion instead is to hand over control of facilities to municipal authorities and the government. Are you serious? What facilities do these organisations provide at present?? Underfunded, expensive, swimming pools in county towns is about the height of it. They have no interest in or experience of developing these facilities or running them.
Likewise the FAI, part of the richest sporting organisation in the world and haven't a pot to piss in, but have a CEO earning over 400k. Most League of Ireland clubs in general are stony broke, and are left swinging in the wind by the FAI in general. The IRFU is a little better, but has no real presence around the country in terms of facilities. Eg, talk here of development the showgrounds in Galway, that connacht rugby don't own,?

Salthill GAA was a crazy decision, made by a powerful clic from the city. Developing Tuam was the correct decision at the time, but that ship has sailed.
In an ideal world op you might be onto something, given a blank page and everyone paying their way. But you just know that isn't the case. When push comes to shove, they'll all come cap in hand to the GAA to bail them out when they need pitches for World Cups or whatever

osarusan · 20-05-2017 09:07PM

andekwarhola wrote: »

A lot of LOi stadiums that in terrible shape, not helped obviously by the disinterest of the public and the incompetence of the FAI. The best ones n the country are usually not owned by the clubs in question like Tallaght stadium or Turners Cross.

Yeah, no LOI team can really commit to setting aside a few million (which they don't even have) to building a proper stadium when every season is pretty much a battle for survival.

wakka12 · 20-05-2017 09:17PM

Is sport really priority at this moment in time? With such poor transport, housing and healthcare problems across the board in this country any significant expense given over to sports just seems ridiculous tbh!

TheRiverman · 20-05-2017 09:17PM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Thomond Park Stadium Limerick the holy grail of rugby powerful Stadium one of the best in the world.

Lovely Stadium to look at,but those top seats in the stands are so steep and far away from the pitch.

Peregrine · 20-05-2017 09:25PM

MarinersBlues wrote: »

I'm from Galway so I have an opinion here.
If the sportsground was developed fully you could fit a 20k stadium on that site, along with a much needed multi-story carpark. If you had a proper engineer/architect I'm sure there could be a way to have retractable terraces to address pitch sizes.

The owners won't sell the Sportsgrounds and the dogs don't want to be kicked out and left without a stadium in Galway. Besides, there's no way you could get a new stadium through the planning process in that location. All the residents would object and they'd have a point.

A new stadium in Galway would have to be in a different location.

Widdershins · 20-05-2017 09:27PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Is sport really priority at this moment in time? With such poor transport, housing and healthcare problems across the board in this country any significant expense given over to sports just seems ridiculous tbh!

+1

Go and visit the field hospital that is Limerick and E and tell me we 'need' to spend more on sports facilities.

Sports are a hobby not a necessity. It has health benefits and it is a good way to occupy young people but there are higher priorities right now. Fund it between yourselves if necessary.

TheRiverman · 20-05-2017 09:39PM

Peregrine wrote: »

The owners won't sell the Sportsgrounds and the dogs don't want to be kicked out and left without a stadium in Galway. Besides, there's no way you could get a new stadium through the planning process in that location. All the residents would object and they'd have a point.

A new stadium in Galway would have to be in a different location.

A new stadium in Galway should be the redevelopment of Tuam.

andekwarhola · 20-05-2017 09:43PM

Widdershins wrote: »

+1

Go and visit the field hospital that is Limerick and E and tell me we 'need' to spend more on sports facilities.

Sports are a hobby not a necessity. It has health benefits and it is a good way to occupy young people but there are higher priorities right now. Fund it between yourselves if necessary.

Fair (and emotive) point but municipal stadiums (like Tallaght, for example) actually generate income for the local authority and community. Not only directly (hefty anchor tenant rents, stadium advertising, events etc) but also indirectly (jobs, commercial footfall around matches and other events).

A stadium is also often about more than bean counting. It is a focal community point and sporting facility and in the case of Tallaght, the club has a lot of positive activities (in an area with a lot of underprivileged sectors) in the community with stuff like schools and young people generally. I've no doubt other stadia (of all codes) have similar structures.

It's always a bit reductive to reduce things to Sport: frivolous; Other stuff: worthy

keeponhurling · 20-05-2017 09:48PM

It should not be a priority for a government to interfere and force sporting organizations to do anything.
We're already enough of a nanny state.

Widdershins · 20-05-2017 09:53PM

andekwarhola wrote: »

Fair (and emotive) point but municipal stadiums (like Tallaght, for example) actually generate income for the local authority and community. Not only directly (hefty anchor tenant rents, stadium advertising, events etc) but also indirectly (jobs, commercial footfall around matches and other events).

A stadium is also often about more than bean counting. It is a focal community point and sporting facility and in the case of Tallaght, the club has a lot of positive activities (in an area with a lot of underprivileged sectors) in the community with stuff like schools and young people generally. I've no doubt other stadia (of all codes) have similar structures.

It's always a bit reductive to reduce things to Sport: frivolous; Other stuff: worthy

I think anyone who'd experienced the place, especially with a vulnerable person like a relative with alzheimers, would feel just as strongly. I'd consider it a human rights issue.
If it's a funding issue causing these problems then prioritisation must happen. Surely nobody could argue against that?

Does the revenue generated exceed what's spent on sporting facilities?

andekwarhola · 20-05-2017 10:03PM

Widdershins wrote: »

I think anyone who'd experienced the place, especially with a vulnerable person like a relative with alzheimers, would feel just as strongly. I'd consider it a human rights issue.
If it's a funding issue causing these problems then prioritisation must happen. Surely nobody could argue against that?

Does the revenue generated exceed what's spent on sporting facilities?

To be fair, I don't think funding is really the issue the issue with our health system. We have one of the highest spend ratios there in the OECD, don't we?

The problem is that it's a dysfunctional, financial rat hole so i'm not sure kidding ourselves that firing another few million into it instead of other capital projects will matter too much in the current political climate.

Widdershins · 20-05-2017 10:05PM

andekwarhola wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think funding is really the issue the issue with our health system. We have one of the highest spend ratios there in the OECD, don't we?

The problem is that it's a dysfunctional, financial rat hole so i'm not sure kidding ourselves that firing another few million into it instead of other capital projects will matter too much in the current political climate.

I don't know. There's a new A and E department in UHL Limerick but there's a shortfall of a couple of million that was delaying the opening. So funding seems to be at least one factor.

MarinersBlues · 20-05-2017 11:41PM

keeponhurling wrote: »

It should not be a priority for a government to interfere and force sporting organizations to do anything.
We're already enough of a nanny state.

It's not interfering. Its refusing to pay grants to have the same work done over and over again for stadia that are underused.

One decent sporting venue for each population centre with another larger one for a given region. Or something along those lines.

Let all sports access the facilities as long as they help maintain it.

MarinersBlues · 20-05-2017 11:46PM

TheRiverman wrote: »

A new stadium in Galway should be the redevelopment of Tuam.

For what?
You have Pearse stadium in Galway and McHale park in Mayo.
Why would you invest in Tuam?
Take out the lethal cavity blocks and maybe put in a decent roofed terrace and leave it at that.

We need to properly develop our sporting infrastructure

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