Our legacy of road deaths, is it time we were more honest?

NIMAN · 13-05-2017 08:48AM #1

It seems every couple of days there is another road death in the country.

Every one a tragedy, a family ruined for life, lives lost needlessly.

At this point, it feels like we are just paying lip service to the issue, and things don't seem to be getting any better.

Is it not time for us to be more honest and face up to what is causing these fatalities? They are reported for the day it happens, and then usually we move on to the next news story until another person dies.

Unless its a high profile crash, like the one that killed 8 up here in Donegal, we usually never hear any follow up. Perhaps it would be cruel to admit the cause for the grieving family? But is it achieving anything by us saying "those poor lads, so young, dying on that country road at 4am", instead of being told that those poor lads were 6 times over the limit to drive?

I think we could at least compromise and release annual figures to explain all the crashes. For example, if 100 die this year, perhaps have something like 33 caused by driver being drunk, 22 caused by suicide, 20 caused by excessive speed, 5 caused by defective car, 3 were unaccompanied L drivers etc?

Usually you tackle a problem by admitting whats wrong.

Thoughts?

shar01 · 13-05-2017 08:56AM

Totally agree with an overview of the causes (you could add in poor road surface conditions).

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 09:17AM

The Gardai and sneaky little men in vans might lose justification for fishing with dynamite if it turns out it's not really about road deaths as the stats don't back up the need for mass theft from motorists.

We should also know what's the vehicles most likely to leave you dead. If it's an 89 Honda Civic well then let's tax the bejazus out of them.

I spoke with a guy in the flying squad could be 5 years ago and he said injuries were going up again as people were more inclined to drive a small cheap car as it was a recession.
We make it impossible for the youth to drive a good sized safe car starting off and then scratch our heads when their Clio folds like a Tayto bag in a crash killing everyone.

freshpopcorn · 13-05-2017 09:18AM

In 2014 almost half of 42% were not wearing seat belts according to the RSA.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/road-safety-authority-says-42-of-those-killed-in-vehicles-not-wearing-seat-belts-1.2052342

Hers's statics about road deaths between 2008-2012 saying excessive speed was a factor.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/News-2016/Excessive-Speed-a-Factor-in-322-Road-Deaths-Between-2008-and-2012/

I do know somebody who was a witness to fatally collision(lead up to it). It was one of these accidents that was discussed about a lot of the time. It wasn't as clear cut as the people on the net made it out to be tough.(How it could have being prevented).
Well the person I know saw a journalist at the inquest. Their was no mention of it in the papers at the time because their was other things going on in the news.
If you are interested in reading about inquests OP I find their often in local papers such as The Corkman and Kerryman print editions seem to feture them and they don't seem to appear online.

vicwatson · 13-05-2017 09:22AM

A good start might be that you cannot tax or insure your car unless you have a valid NCT cert, if they were serious about tackling ****e cars on the road like (maybe give a period of grace where you cannot legitimately get an NCT Test) and police the damn thing.

But of course, like lots of other things, there is no political will to do this.

vicwatson · 13-05-2017 09:24AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Hers's statics about road deaths between 2008-2012 saying excessive speed was a factor.

Yes excessive speed, but due to what? being drunk, drugged, suicide?

Atlantic Dawn · 13-05-2017 09:27AM

There should be a website listing the full details of each crash where a fatality has occured, the condition of the driver(s), car, legal status of car and driver on the road and the weather on the day etc.

shar01 · 13-05-2017 09:31AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

There should be a website listing the full details of each crash where a fatality has occured, the condition of the driver(s), car, legal status of car and driver on the road and the weather on the day etc.

Can't remember where I read it but in some states in America, the very detailed accident report is available online.

Fighting Tao · 13-05-2017 09:32AM

shar01 wrote: »

Totally agree with an overview of the causes (you could add in poor road surface conditions).

Should snow be recorded as a cause because someone is driving 120kph on a snow covered road on summer tyres? People should drive in accordance to the conditions. Blaming the conditions is just another cop out.

Ursus Horribilis · 13-05-2017 09:32AM

vicwatson wrote: »

Yes excessive speed, but due to what? being drunk, drugged, suicide?

Or maybe because they're cnuts who treat the road like their personal racetrack?

antodeco · 13-05-2017 09:32AM

Unfortunately it's not as black and white as some of the replies here.

Better safety in cars, mean people feel safer driving them, meaning they're not as frightened to drive. Coupled with the disjoint a modern driver has with their car, they really aren't always in control.

For example, if I'm driving my car, built in 1980, no electronic assists, no safety equipment bar a seatbelt, I drive completely different, than if I'm driving my car built in 2015. I know if the older car, one slip up, and I could be cream crackered, so I drive differently. The modern car, in my mind I don't need to drive as "safe" as I've more room for error, and a significantly higher chance of survival/serious injury.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 09:34AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

In 2014 almost half of 42% were not wearing seat belts according to the RSA.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/road-safety-authority-says-42-of-those-killed-in-vehicles-not-wearing-seat-belts-1.2052342

Hers's statics about road deaths between 2008-2012 saying excessive speed was a factor.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/News-2016/Excessive-Speed-a-Factor-in-322-Road-Deaths-Between-2008-and-2012/

I do know somebody who was a witness to fatally collision(lead up to it). It was one of these accidents that was discussed about a lot of the time. It wasn't as clear cut as the people on the net made it out to be tough.(How it could have being prevented).
Well the person I know saw a journalist at the inquest. Their was no mention of it in the papers at the time because their was other things going on in the news.
If you are interested in reading about inquests OP I find their often in local papers such as The Corkman and Kerryman print editions seem to feture them and they don't seem to appear online.

Think you've just proven op's point with the first article. 42% weren't using a safety belt but it doesn't say 42% of what number in the article. It's a headline stat all we know from the article is 36 dead passengers but we don't know what % of them were wearing a belt and we don't know how many drivers were killed. It's doing everything bar tell the truth about how much danger the driver is actually in.

shar01 · 13-05-2017 09:39AM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Should snow be recorded as a cause because someone is driving 120kph on a snow covered road on summer tyres? People should drive in accordance to the conditions. Blaming the conditions is just another cop out.

But wouldn't that report reflect the weather conditions, the tyre type and the speed of the car also?

Macmillan150 · 13-05-2017 09:47AM

If they were in a taxi they would probably still be alive. The fact is you rarely read about young people in Dublin dying like this, because there are options to socialise safely. There really needs to be some outside-the-box thinking to help young people socialise and drive safely. Being the designated sober driver, driving home on small dark country lanes at 4am is no easy job either. Sure we can tax, punish and overcharge our young people for driving. But realistically, we need some options to allow them to socialise safely. Tax breaks for rural taxis? Incentives for pubs to run buses? I don't know, but it's a problem that needs a solution.

Allinall · 13-05-2017 09:53AM

sandraiwhite@ya wrote: »

If they were in a taxi they would probably still be alive. The fact is you rarely read about young people in Dublin dying like this, because there are options to socialise safely. There really needs to be some outside-the-box thinking to help young people socialise and drive safely. Being the designated sober driver, driving home on small dark country lanes at 4am is no easy job either. Sure we can tax, punish and overcharge our young people for driving. But realistically, we need some options to allow them to socialise safely. Tax breaks for rural taxis? Incentives for pubs to run buses? I don't know, but it's a problem that needs a solution.

Thousands upon thousands of young people get themselves home safely every weekend.

Are all these just lucky?

NIMAN · 13-05-2017 09:59AM

Agreed, we simply need to instill the idea that its not ok to drink and drive, or take drugs and drive. Or speed crazily.

But then again, we have been trying to do that for decades now, and its not working.

Perhaps if accidents were reported openly it might be a small deterrent?
OR would that be cruel on a family who just lost a son or daughter for the country to know their child was plastered at the wheel?

I know of a few deaths in recent times locally where you'd hear "what about that accident, wasn't it terrible", when information has come out that the person was really drunk. Is it time we stopped this sympathy for idiots who want to drink and drive and often kill innocent people?

Macmillan150 · 13-05-2017 10:06AM

We don't need sympathy for them. But thousands of Euro are spent checking to see if I'm doing 4km over the limit on a sunny Wednesday afternoon. I wouldn't mind if a little bit of that funding went on a taxi service in Donegal. Do I think the good teenagers of Dublin are a better class of citizen that those up in Donegal. Nope I don't. They just have more options. If we assume that 99.99% of teenagers can get home safely that's great. We either care or we don't care about the rest. If they want to kill themselves we are either bothered or we are not. I'd gladly allow some of my tax to go towards some late hours bus service. I subsidise the young crowd here getting buses into town when they could easily walk. Or could easily go the local pubs 100m down the road.

Ursus Horribilis · 13-05-2017 11:43AM

I don't think reporting is going to help one way or the other. There is feck all enforcement out there and an anti-social culture amongst a significant minority of motorists. The road which runs past my parent's house appears to be part of the local racetrack. The roads around there are black with doughnuts and skid marks and you can hear the cars screaming down the main road once evening time comes. Even if someone tried to ring the guards, nothing's going to be done about them. These gob****es know they can tear around the place with impunity. Anecdotally I've heard of quite a few walls/fences been hit locally. But of course, if any of these lads get killed they'll be eulogised from on high.

bmwguy · 13-05-2017 06:01PM

The excessive insurance costs on anything bigger than a Micra is a very valid point and one I didnt think of before. For some cases. Other cases are definitely people acting the boll*X in their cars though and bigger cars could make this worse.
Some are definitely suicide. Most are just bad driving and not driving to the conditions. Not necessarily by the deceased but by some party to the accident. Drink undoubtedly a factor too.

And speed. I drive motorways regularly and not ashamed to admit I go over the limit sometimes. 140/150 kmph on an empty dry road but never more. I will admit i should not do this. And I have a car designed for the job, it will do near 250 kmph top speed. The amount of older small cars I see doing the same speeds and more is surprising. Micras, Clios etc People pushing their cars as hard as they possibly can. I remember having a Peugeot 206 and it was pretty difficult to do those speeds and the car didn't feel stable at all.

nhunter100 · 13-05-2017 06:04PM

NIMAN wrote:

I think we could at least compromise and release annual figures to explain all the crashes. For example, if 100 die this year, perhaps have something like 33 caused by driver being drunk, 22 caused by suicide, 20 caused by excessive speed, 5 caused by defective car, 3 were unaccompanied L drivers etc?

No thoughts on the condition of roads? this is also a mitigating factor is the cause of crashes.

Harry Palmr · 13-05-2017 06:15PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

There should be a website listing the full details of each crash where a fatality has occured, the condition of the driver(s), car, legal status of car and driver on the road and the weather on the day etc.

There used to be an Irish website some years back which used google maps for just this sort of thing. Dunno if it's still out there, I expect it was the work of one person so probably not.

As for the opening lament, the fatality rate is pretty low by international standards and nearly as low as it's ever been in Ireland. The swing upwards in the last couple of years is entirely links to the economy - more people driving more distance as jobs are created. Every death is a tragedy for some family but in the bigger scheme of things it's less of a pressing matter than suicide, preventable cancers, alcohol, strokes, fuel poverty etc.

Fatalities per 100,000 persons per year

World 17.4
Ireland 4.1 (14 lowest)

Fatalities per 100,000 cars per year

Ireland 7.6 (16th lowest)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_traffic_accidents_deaths_in_Republic_of_Ireland_by_year

corkgsxr · 13-05-2017 06:18PM

i would say the biggest 2 issues on roads are condition of roads and tire type.

if the roads were a good surface you can brake and corner better even with iffy mechanics, old cars and ****e tires

but i think the standard for tires should be increase hugely. how some of those things get through legislation is beyond me

also thing like i can buy brake pads for about 15/20 euro for most cars and there absolute ****e.

its a combo of issues. you can play with stats all you want but speed and drinking/drugs arent the biggest issues there just easy things to blame

carzony · 13-05-2017 06:20PM

The whole system needs to be renewed if they want to take road safety seriously.

Most people in Ireland complete their driving test in housing estates, this is not a good enough test of someones driving ability. The test should be extended to motorways, main roads, round-abouts, vehicle maintenance, ect..

There needs to be some serious crackdown by the Gardai as I don't think road safety is really taken very seriously anymore. They have great advertising campaigns but does the normal guard on the street really care?

In relation to the stats collected I don't really believe them. I just don't think younger drivers are as dangerous as they say. Most will be wearing seat belts because we have been trained to for the last 10+ years to do so. Any young driver I know or even any kids I know straight away put on a belt.

The standard of driving is just very bad in Ireland and it will never change unless their is wide spread reform.

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-05-2017 07:48PM

Governing all cars to a max 120kph would be a start.

But yes, OP's point has merit. The '19 year old lone driver killed when his car "left the road" at 3am on a Saturday. No other cars were involved'. We know what it was. But acknowledging that publicly seems to be a problem.

freshpopcorn · 13-05-2017 08:00PM

carzony wrote: »

In relation to the stats collected I don't really believe them. I just don't think younger drivers are as dangerous as they say. Most will be wearing seat belts because we have been trained to for the last 10+ years to do so. Any young driver I know or even any kids I know straight away put on a belt.

I'm 25 this year and when I went to college when I was 18 I thought all young people wore seat belts. However I was amazed at the amount of people who didn't either driving or being passengers.
We had all the road safety demonstrations in school and some at college and if I'm being honest I don't think it made any really difference to us.

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-05-2017 08:14PM

carzony wrote: »

In relation to the stats collected I don't really believe them.

Nobody is cooking the stats. Not believing them because they dont conform to preconceived beliefs, or with the infinitesimal sample of personal experience, is just a head in the sand reaction.

IsaacWunder · 13-05-2017 08:26PM

Road deaths have halved over the last 10 years. They're down to nearly 1/3 of where they were 20 years ago. I think it's no coincidence that the same period saw the introduction of better roads, particularly the motorway network linking Dublin to the cities. Imagine how many more lives could be saved if they built a decent road network linking the rest of the country?

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-05-2017 08:37PM

IsaacWunder wrote: »

Road deaths have halved over the last 10 years. They're down to nearly 1/3 of where they were 20 years ago. I think it's no coincidence that the same period saw the introduction of better roads, particularly the motorway network linking Dublin to the cities.

You are correct to think that it is no coincidence. It is not contested that it is one of several factors. As it is no coincidence that in the same period saw the introduction of penalty points, increased speed detection, a change in drink driving culture, the elimination of unaccompanied learners, and the NCT.
For the influence of each of these beyond coincidence, it is necessary to study the statistics.

marno21 · 14-05-2017 02:50AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You are correct to think that it is no coincidence. It is not contested that it is one of several factors. As it is no coincidence that in the same period saw the introduction of penalty points, increased speed detection, a change in drink driving culture, the elimination of unaccompanied learners, and the NCT.
For the influence of each of these beyond coincidence, it is necessary to study the statistics.

Indeed. The days of hearing of frequent fatal head on collisions on well over capacity roads such as the old N1, N3, N4, N6, N7, N8, N9 and N11 are thankfully gone. A lot of dangerous stretches were also bypassed or realigned over the years, especially notorious stretches like the Ballinameesda bends on the N11 and that chronic stretch on the N6 west of Ballinasloe.

More needs to be done in this regard, such as the 6 people that died on the N20 Cork-Limerick road last year, and the frequent crashes on the busy but poor roads such as the N4 in Sligo, the N17, the N21, N22 and N24. National secondary roads need a good look at too such as the N72 and the N76.

Improving roads such as the N20 will go a lot further in cutting the rate of deaths than GoSafe vans and introducing bans for people between 22mg and 35mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood.

oppenheimer1 · 14-05-2017 02:59AM

corkgsxr wrote: »

i would say the biggest 2 issues on roads are condition of roads and tire type.

if the roads were a good surface you can brake and corner better even with iffy mechanics, old cars and ****e tires

but i think the standard for tires should be increase hugely. how some of those things get through legislation is beyond me

also thing like i can buy brake pads for about 15/20 euro for most cars and there absolute ****e.

its a combo of issues. you can play with stats all you want but speed and drinking/drugs arent the biggest issues there just easy things to blame

I would throw in dangerous overtaking as well.

Donegal does have a specific cultural problem though - boy racers acting the bollocks on lonely country roads at weekend nights

Victor · 14-05-2017 03:13AM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

There used to be an Irish website some years back which used google maps for just this sort of thing. Dunno if it's still out there, I expect it was the work of one person so probably not.

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Collision-Statistics/Ireland-Road-Collisions/

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Collision-Statistics/

carzony wrote: »

In relation to the stats collected I don't really believe them. I just don't think younger drivers are as dangerous as they say.

Then disprove them. The attached is information that I collected myself over a period of years. Many cases include names. You can check the facts yourself.

Our legacy of road deaths, is it time we were more honest?

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