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100 gay men detained in 'concentration camps' in Chechnya — read first post

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  • #182
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Rightwing wrote:
    Backward places are best avoided for any number of reasons. I would guess homosexuality is illegal there (probably on religious grounds and beliefs) and they are clearly breaking the law if so. So the question remains should be il/legal. I've no problem with it being illegal, we can't forget homosexuality was illegal here only 30 or 40 years ago and these places are way behind us. What is wrong is the punishment.


    You'll drag your girlfriend's pussy from my cold, dead hands.


  • #183
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Middle ground would be nice. We are too liberal. They are backward.

    Backward places are best avoided for any number of reasons. I would guess homosexuality is illegal there (probably on religious grounds and beliefs) and they are clearly breaking the law if so. So the question remains should be il/legal. I've no problem with it being illegal, we can't forget homosexuality was illegal here only 30 or 40 years ago and these places are way behind us. What is wrong is the punishment.

    Yes, there is something extraordinarily wrong with making a person's sexual orientation illegal. It's not just the punishment that's the issue. I hold the exact same view about Ireland's previous position. It's not a matter of middle ground....


  • #184
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    I would..but then again I'm not into tarring entire groups of people as a pastime




    The political leadership obviously was...but everyone else hardly was?

    I think the political leadership is often reflective of the citizens way of thinking. Because if it wasnt, then they wouldnt be voted into power again. The only time this doesn't happen is when its a dictatorship i.e.. North Korea. I don't believe their population supports the regime

    South africa only changed because of boycotting from the rest oft he world which decreased quality of life there and people felt obliged to change

    So yes I do believe most white south africans were racist at the time


  • #185
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    wakka12 wrote: »
    I think the political leadership is often reflective of the citizens way of thinking. Because if it wasnt, then they wouldnt be voted into power again. The only time this doesn't happen is when its a dictatorship i.e.. North Korea. I don't believe their population supports the regime

    South africa only changed because of boycotting from the rest oft he world which decreased quality of life there and people felt obliged to change

    So yes I do believe most white south africans were racist at the time

    Nonsense.
    These issues clearly aren't that simple.


  • #186
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    Then it should follow on that all Christians are homophobic which in itself is not true. You ignore the fact that Russia that is largely Christian has been engaging in creating homophobic legislation for years. Uganda, has homophobic laws that came about as a result of evangelical Christians from the US. So it's not unique to Islamic countires.

    Obviously all religious groups have large numbers of homophobic followers, i cant argue that. But islam seems even worse for it, why is it that islamic countries with high standards of living/developed economies/social structure are still staunchly homophobic yet most christian nations of similar standards of living are not?
    Im talking about more developed countries here.
    Undeveloped countries, socially and economically, regardless of majority religion are usually mostly homophobic, such as Ugana which is christian or Somalia which is Islamic or Nigeria which is a mixture of both.

    But what are countries such as Saudi Arabias excuse? Cant blame poor development on that, extremely wealthy, very low crime, generally high standard of living for non-immigrants


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  • #187
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Middle ground would be nice. We are too liberal. They are backward.

    Backward places are best avoided for any number of reasons. I would guess homosexuality is illegal there (probably on religious grounds and beliefs) and they are clearly breaking the law if so. So the question remains should be il/legal. I've no problem with it being illegal, we can't forget homosexuality was illegal here only 30 or 40 years ago and these places are way behind us. What is wrong is the punishment.

    Regardless of your thoughts on homosexuality , how could you possibly be happy to live in a state which invades the privacy of its citizens so much so that they make laws governing who you can sleep with?
    And why do you keep brining it up that it was illegal here 40 years ago? It doesn't make it anymore okay for other countries to make it illegal right now. I think most people are ashamed of the fact that it was illegal not that long ago.


  • #188
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    Uganda adopted their policies as a direct result of US evangelicals. Russia adopted theirs as a result of the orthodox church, they're not an undeveloped country. Kadyrov was appointed by Putin as the President of Chechnya in 2007. He did get reelected but he very much so has Kremlin backing, I would give little credence to Putin backing an investigation into Chechnya at moment as a result.


  • #189
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Nonsense.
    These issues clearly aren't that simple.

    If white south africans weren't racist there would have been mass protests to stop that treatment of black people at the time, but other countries had to intervene to make change. If the majority of a population are very unhappy with something the government are doing, they'll make it change. Either forcefully or by not electing that group into power in the next elections


  • #190
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    wakka12 wrote: »
    If white south africans weren't racist there would have been mass protests to stop that treatment of black people at the time, but other countries had to intervene to make change. If the majority of a population are very unhappy with something the government are doing, they'll make it change. Either forcefully or by not electing that group into power in the next elections

    They were doing well and they knew that protests just don't work.


  • #191
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    Uganda adopted their policies as a direct result of US evangelicals. Russia adopted theirs as a result of the orthodox church, they're not an undeveloped country. Kadyrov was appointed by Putin as the President of Chechnya in 2007. He did get reelected but he very much so has Kremlin backing, I would give little credence to Putin backing an investigation into Chechnya at moment as a result.

    Russia may be homophobic but it cannot be compared to a saudi government which enforces the death penalty for gay people. And no, vigilantes in almost autonomously governed chechnya running death camps are not a valid comparison, no matter how apathetic the russian government are towards the atrocities on their own land


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  • #192
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Rightwing wrote: »
    They were doing well and they knew that protests just don't work.

    Did the stonewall riots not have any effect?Black rights matter protestors forced police in the US to now wear body cams for example. Protests have changed the world throughout history. If protests never made a difference then irish people wouldnt be protesting about irish water, or repeal the 8th or whatever else currently. If a government is made known that the public is unhappy with how theyre running the county, then they will change so that they'll be elected into power again


  • #193
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Russia may be homophobic but it cannot be compared to a saudi government which enforces the death penalty for gay people. And no, vigilantes in almost autonomously governed chechnya running death camps are not a valid comparison, no matter how apathetic the russian government are towards the atrocities on their own land

    Okay so Russia have an acceptable amount of jailing, honeytrap attacks of gay people. You're happy to label Muslims as unacceptable to western society due to homophobia but then examples of state endorsed homophobia in Christian societies is viewed as not so bad by you.... You're just using this as an excuse for your general feelings on Muslims.


  • #194
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    Okay so Russia have an acceptable amount of jailing, honeytrap attacks of gay people. You're happy to label Muslims as unacceptable to western society due to homophobia but then examples of state endorsed homophobia in Christian societies is viewed as not so bad by you.... You're just using this as an excuse for your general feelings on Muslims.

    Nope, whats much more ridiculous is that your comparing Saudi arabias gay DEATH penalty to russias current intolerance of the gay community.
    So tell me, would you rather live in saudi arabia than russia if you were gay? Theres your answer


  • #195
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Did the stonewall riots not have any effect?Black rights matter protestors forced police in the US to now wear body cams for example. Protests have changed the world throughout history. If protests never made a difference then irish people wouldnt be protesting about irish water, or repeal the 8th or whatever else currently. If a government is made known that the public is unhappy with how theyre running the county, then they will change so that they'll be elected into power again

    Well you are talking about riots, I'm not talking about peaceful, decent SA folks.


  • #196
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    snowflaker wrote: »
    interesting link, his Religious Freedom EO makes that largely worthless now.

    Christian laws good? Sharia Law bad?

    Christian laws dont throw gays off buildings


  • #197
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Sorry you've lost me.

    There has been a large protest in Dublin and many other cities across the world. There has been a huge campaign by All Out and by others.

    Well then the media didnt cover it as much as the Anti Trump marches


  • #198
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Noone is asking you to believe in them.

    Clearly people do not have their own lives to live in Chechnya. They are being totured and killed because of their sexual orientation.

    Why must the show go on?

    Frankly your blase attitude to human rights abuses is sickening and disgusting.

    What about Saudi Arabia, what about marches against Sharia Law killing gays??......oh wait!!


  • #199
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Well you are talking about riots, I'm not talking about peaceful, decent SA folks.

    Call me harsh but I don't think you're a decent folk if you stood by and did nothing while your government treated black people in your country like that


  • #200
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    learn_more wrote: »
    That's a low brow attitude if you don't mind me saying. Denying access to non-Islamic countries from Islamic countries is hardly going to have much effect as to their beliefs or attitudes. If anything letting them come here and seeing our culture first hand would do a lot more to changing their attitudes than not.

    Not in all cases of course but if you just look at the huge number of Pakistani/Indian British citizens that were born in the UK who still identify as Muslims, you gotta think our beliefs and standards are gonna wipe off on them.

    Edit: Muslim attacks on gays in the UK is virtually unheard off and remember there is a huge Muslim population in places like London and elsewhere. I think the percentage of hardcore Muslim fundamentalist types is minuscule in comparison to the overall Muslim population of the UK. They are as insignificant at the percentage of Christian fundamentalist that exist there as well.

    But thats the problem, they identify as Muslim, not as British. Why attack gays in the UK when theres so many more white girls they can groom


  • #201
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    learn_more wrote: »
    Well I'm sorry but I stand by it. Your remarks re JTP were a personal attack on him, without much intellectual input. The report you linked too says 52% of Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal. That means 48% don't. 48% is a lot of Muslims.

    I personally have no respect for religion, major or minor ones. Especially Islam. And not solely for their attitude to homosexuality. Religion to me equates to a poisonous idea of conformism - that everyone should be the same, and if your not, you don't cut it.

    So, your strategy is to cut out Muslims altogether, demonize them all, is not a position I admire. I think that attitude is low brow and I'm don't care if your offended. I think you should stop thinking in such simplistic ways.

    1.5billion Muslims in the world if its only 52% that think it should be illegal ( I would say its a lot more than that ) its still 750million.....let that sink in for a minute


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  • #202
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    I would..but then again I'm not into tarring entire groups of people as a pastime




    The political leadership obviously was...but everyone else hardly was?

    You havent met many Afrikaans then:rolleyes:


  • #203
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    Then it should follow on that all Christians are homophobic which in itself is not true. You ignore the fact that Russia that is largely Christian has been engaging in creating homophobic legislation for years. Uganda, has homophobic laws that came about as a result of evangelical Christians from the US. So it's not unique to Islamic countires.

    Maybe not but we in the west have moved on....Ireland being the first country to allow gay marriage.
    Why would you want to bring in a religion where the followers still believe in a book written centuries ago. ( Majority of Christians have moved with the times )


  • #204
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    B_Wayne wrote: »
    Yes, there is something extraordinarily wrong with making a person's sexual orientation illegal. It's not just the punishment that's the issue. I hold the exact same view about Ireland's previous position. It's not a matter of middle ground....

    Yes but thats still in the past, we have moved on....again why bring in a backward thinking religion to Ireland?


  • #205
    Really Interested
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭Really Interested


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Maybe not but we in the west have moved on....Ireland being the first country to allow gay marriage.
    Why would you want to bring in a religion where the followers still believe in a book written centuries ago. ( Majority of Christians have moved with the times )

    Ireland was not the first country to allow Gay marriage. Ireland was the first country where the vote of the people allowed gay marriage.


  • #206
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Well you are talking about riots, I'm not talking about peaceful, decent SA folks.

    Theres a difference between the " whites " in SA. The Afrikaans were more racist than the British. In fact I've met many young Afrikaans & they would still be racist.


  • #207
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Really Interested wrote: »
    Ireland was not the first country to allow Gay marriage. Ireland was the first country where the vote of the people allowed gay marriage.

    Seriously??? Apples & oranges


  • #208
    Really Interested
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭Really Interested


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Seriously??? Apples & oranges

    the Dutch made gay marriage legal in 2000, many years before Ireland. 15 years is not apples and oranges.


  • #209
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Theres a difference between the " whites " in SA. The Afrikaans were more racist than the British. In fact I've met many young Afrikaans & they would still be racist.

    Perhaps they are. But my point was just because someone isn't out waving a banner or flag doesn't mean they are racist.


  • #210
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Perhaps they are. But my point was just because someone isn't out waving a banner or flag doesn't mean they are racist.

    True :D


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  • #211
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Maybe not but we in the west have moved on....Ireland being the first country to allow gay marriage.
    Why would you want to bring in a religion where the followers still believe in a book written centuries ago. ( Majority of Christians have moved with the times )

    I would imagine there's still plenty of people in the west that would happily criminalise homosexuality if they could.
    wakka12 wrote: »
    Nope, whats much more ridiculous is that your comparing Saudi arabias gay DEATH penalty to russias current intolerance of the gay community.
    So tell me, would you rather live in saudi arabia than russia if you were gay? Theres your answer
    Problem is, I view both policies as incredibly immoral. I'll admit that Saudi Arabia is worse. But you're also happy to normalise Russia's policy. I will normalise nether and will not use as some bizarre proof that the average Muslim wants Europe to be Saudi Arabia.


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