Burka ban

Absolam wrote: »

I don't know if many people do it to please censorious parents, as per earlier it seems to be largely cultural. But the comparison that struck me was that Japan, like France but on a far far larger scale, is experiencing a new cultural phenomenon of people choosing to cover their faces in public. So far it doesn't seem to be causing any issues with 'living together' or inhibiting social interaction to any significant degree. King Mob would be far better placed to say if there's any public debate on banning this behaviour, but I've not noticed any yet.

It's not a new phenomenon. And people don't wear the masks for religious or cultural reasons or because the want to hide their face for whatever reason. It's simply a politeness thing along the same lines as carrying a handkerchief.
Your comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Nor is Japan this accepting utopia for people who'd like to wear headscarves. While you can see people wearing them, and there isn't any laws against them, they mark people out in a country that has very clear, strong lines between insiders and outsiders.

Absolam wrote: »

No? My understanding is it only really took off in 2003 with the advent of disposable masks, which is pretty recent all things cultural in Japan considered.

I wouldn't consider 14 years ago "recent". And they have been around for a lot longer than that. Nor are they considered new or strange or trendy.
I think you are reading way too far into nothing.

Absolam wrote: »

You yourself said they wear them for politeness and convention; those are cultural things, aren't they?

Yes, but not in the same way that headscarves are in some cultures.
A better, more accurate comparison would be handkerchiefs.

But if you want to compare hijabs and burkas to cheap disposable snot masks you get in a convenience store...

Absolam wrote: »

I wasn't portraying Japan as a utopia for facelessness either; just that it seems to be a society quite capable of getting along with social interaction in the public sphere whilst many people cover their faces. Is it not?

Again, not really an accurate comparison for a point I'm not sure I can see.
Some regular Japanese people are taken aback when I turn up in their shop or restaurant by virtue of being tall, white and bearded.
I imagine that a person wearing a headscarf would get a similar if not bigger reaction. So I wouldn't say that Japan is any better with "getting along" with people wearing things like burkas and hijabs.

Further, in a lot of situations, people remove their face masks even while they are sick. If someone is going for an important interview or giving a speech, generally they would take it off beforehand to give a better impression. I don't think this is an appropriate comparison to headscarves.

Absolam wrote: »

Well, in comparison to say adopting the kimono, or western business suits, or sneakers, it's a recent cultural development is what I'm saying. I'm not really reading anything more into it than the fact that it's not causing issues in social spaces, despite being prevalent.

I'm not saying that their cultural aspect is like that of niqab in the Middle East; just that's it's a cultural phenomenon, one that hasn't affected social interaction and 'living together', which was France's concern in banning face coverings.

You are making a point out of nothing really and you are comparing apples and oranges to make that point.

Face masks in Japan do not have the cultural significance of head scarves. If a law was introduced tomorrow, then most people wouldn't care that much if they were banned.

They are also not the same in that it was something started in Japan by Japanese people. It wasn't a case of a small minority of people who are considered outsiders wearing them.

They are not the same because they do not mark people as being in a culture that's outside the majority.

And they are not the same because some of the ways the face mask doesn't interfere with social interactions would not work with headscarves.

What you are doing is trying to pretend that a disposable tissue is the same as a yamaka. It's bizzare
(Edit: actually a better illustration would be you trying to compare Yamakas to the paper crowns you get in Christmas crackers. They're both cultural items and you wear them on your head after all... )

Absolam wrote: »

My point is that the Japanese don't seem to find it inhibits them, or causes social issues, requiring such a ban.

Because people have to take them off in some circumstances and people don't have an issue doing this.
Because people aren't wearing them for religious or deeply held cultural reasons.
Because the majority wear them and are used to them.
And because they do not mark a person out as part of a perceived out-group.

But besides that stuff, they're exactly the same...

Absolam wrote: »

I certainly have seen a few people wearing hijab here, some wearing face masks on top too! And I wouldn't disagree that the Japanese probably found it as odd as they seem to be finding me. Though they are very nice about it I have to say.

Are you suggesting the people who wear headscarves here don't face difficulty?
Because just off the top of my head, I know that head scarves would not be allowed in many of the public schools here.

Absolam wrote: »

That Japanese people remove their face masks in more intimate circumstances is maybe a little wide of my point;

I didn't say anything about intimate circumstances.
I specifically mentioned very public circumstances for reasons that are incompatible with headscarves.

I don't think anyone who wears a headscarf would agree that they should remove it during a speech or an interview to make a better impression

Absolam wrote: »

I get the impression you think I'm making a point that I'm not; I'm not comparing face masks to headscarves, I'm comparing two countries reactions to people choosing to cover their faces in public for cultural reasons.

You are comparing face masks to headscarves by trying to compare how people react to two completely different things.

Would comparing how yamakas are seen in Ireland to how Christmas hats are received in Japan be a useful or meaningful comparison?

The reasons for why people wear head scarves are completely different to the reason some people wear face masks.
Headscarves occupy a completely different space in culture to face masks. One is an important cultural symbol with deep historical and religious meaning, the other is something to keep snot in your nose and you can get for about 100 Yen at 7/11.
The reasons why some people wish to ban the headscarf are completely non-applicable to face masks. And the solutions to some of problems used for facemasks are completely non-applicable to headscarves.
The are also completely different in context as, again, facemasks are a Japanese thing (or at least perceived to be so in Japan) that started in Japan that the majority of Japanese people either do or very familiar with. While head scarves are something seen as a thing outsiders do.

To compare how two cultures react you have to ignore all of this and pretend that none of it plays any kind of role in the issue.
If this is the point you are making, it's not a very well thought out one with little information gained.
Do you think that none of these factors play into the issue?

A better way to compare might be to actually see how actual people who wear actual headscarves are actually received in Japan...

Absolam wrote: »

Actually, I'm comparing how two countries react to the same thing; people covering their faces in public. That's what France has banned, not headscarves or surgical masks. The reason for the ban is it interferes with social interaction or 'living together'; that's the only rationale the European Courts upheld. Yet in Japan people routinely cover their faces in public and it doesn't seem to interfere with their social interaction or 'living together'.
Does it?

No. Because, as I have explained, one of these factors is that people take off facemasks all the time in different contexts, either when asked to or when they feel it's necessary.
Do you think that people who wear headscarves would be ok with taking them off when asked to or taking them off to make a good impression?

Another point of fact is that facemasks are ubiquitous in Japan, so it is not seen as unusual to wear one. Headscaves and otherface coverings are unusual in the context of France and people see this as interfering with interaction.

And again as I have pointed out, masks are seen as a Japanese thing in Japan, headscarves are not seen as a French thing by some people in France and to them, it hinders "living together" by virtue of being of a different culture. I don't agree with this sentiment, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist.

Again I ask, do these factors not play a role?

Now, if we actually compare like for like, then your point is out right contradicted. Japan in general does not react well to things that are different, so I would say that headscarves do interfere with social interaction and living together here.

Absolam wrote: »

Well, we've agreed covering ones face din public does not cause the issues in Japan that the French fear, despite being a ubiquitous practice, so we got somewhere:)

No, we don't agree on that. I have no idea how you have reached the conclusion we did based on what I posted. Unless you are simply ignoring 90% of what I'm actually writing. Please do not put words in my mouth.

I said that they do not cause issues because in Japan, people have no problem taking them off at various times.
I asked you whether this would be acceptable to people who wear headscarves. I asked if they would be ok with taking off their headscarves when asked to by authorities and with taking them off to help make good impressions etc.
You ignored this question because the answer is obvious. People who wear headscarves would not be ok with this arrangement.
And without this arrangement you cannot use facemasks as a comparison to conclude anything about headscarves.

Additionally I also pointed out the many many factors that headscarves have surrounding them that facemasks do no, which makes them further incomparable.
You have yet to acknowledge these factors never mind address them.

Absolam wrote: »

The reason I pointed out it was a recent phenomenon is that there was a time not long ago when it was not a significant feature in Japanese culture, but it is now. Obviously there have been people in France wearing niqab for centuries, but it took a far smaller increase (before the ban on face coverings) to elicit the ban; preventing any possibility that they could become ubiquitous, as face masks have done in Japan.

Why would you think that headscarves would become ubiquitous? That's a ludicrous notion.

The reason that facemasks became so ubiquitous in Japan is because they serve a nominally ultilitarian purpose. They did not have any cultural, historical or religious significance that would have prevented people from adopting them. They were not a signifier of a minority that was considered outsiders.
Headscarves do not serve utilitarian purposes and it would be inappropriate to adopt them for these purposes if they existed. Headscarves do have a deep cultural meaning for a minority that are considered outsiders.

Even then not all Muslims in France agree with wearing the headscarves. And even then, if all of France suddenly converted and all agreed on the issue, half of all people still wouldn't be wearing them.

So again, your comparison is a bit silly.

Absolam wrote: »

I accept that in Japan it was ethnic Japaneses rather than just Japanese citizens that made face coverings ubiquitous, so I wonder, do you think Japan would have banned it if it were primarily gaijin wearing the masks? Not that institutionalised racism is appropriate in any country, I'd just be surprised if Japan were prepared to take that step.

Yes.
It's possible they might have if all foreigners did and even more so if these masks had any kind of cultural significance.
Japan now has issues with people who wear tatoos and they are banned in many places and are generally looked down on. So they have no problem passing rules on foreigners.

Again, as I suggested, if we compare like for like and look at how headscarves are viewed in Japan, we can see that they are effectively banned in some instances.
The are not allowed as part of many uniforms and they are not allowed in official photographs, such as for passports and visas.

Again, you seem to be implying that people with headscarves have no issues here.