Compulsory Irish in schools

Dr Crayfish · 19-04-2017 04:37PM

To me the Irish language is as pointless as religion at this stage.

Anyway who are they kidding? There's no way on Earth any kid is going to come out of school being able to speak another language in this country. There's zero attraction to learning a foreign language for Irish or British kids. Pop culture and the international language is all in English so kids in Holland and Germany want to learn English and speak it when they're on holidays no matter where they go. That's why they're bilingual and we're not, in my opinion.

I almost forgot I was fluent in Irish when I was a kid, but that was from going to a Gaelscoil from low babies upwards. It was the only language we spoke, but you really need complete immersion in a language to learn it properly.

seachto7 · 19-04-2017 04:38PM

Sesame wrote: »

What a waste of hours of learning that could have been used to learn taxes, philosophy, how mortgages work, self-defence, civics, the difference between a non-contributory and contributory pension. You know, the stuff I'm actually finding out lately that I know very little about.
.

Who wants to know about mortgages....

Arghus · 19-04-2017 04:47PM

I wouldn't have a problem with cumpolsory Irish up until the Junior Cert Level, it should be a choice afterwards.

The bigger problem is the manner in which it's taught. No way should people spend 12 years been taught a subject and then lack a basic working knowledge of it, so something is wrong there.

AudreyHepburn · 19-04-2017 04:51PM

Irish is our native tongue, there is no good reason why we all shouldn't be fluent. The problem as I see it is the way it's taught in schools. You're taught to write essays and answer questions on poems rather than to actually speak the language properly.

Irish should in my opinion remain compulsory but the method of teaching needs to change - spoken Irish should account for the majority of your grade/result, maybe 60-40 (with 40 being writing and reading).

Dr Crayfish · 19-04-2017 04:54PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Irish is our native tongue, there is no good reason why we all shouldn't be fluent.

There is, no one wants to f**king learn it or f**king speak it

Your Face · 19-04-2017 05:05PM

Maybe teach them Maths instead.
A truly international language.

Arghus · 19-04-2017 05:07PM

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

There is, no one wants to f**king learn it or f**king speak it

Overstating the case there a little.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-04-2017 05:08PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Irish is our native tongue, there is no good reason why we all shouldn't be fluent. The problem as I see it is the way it's taught in schools. You're taught to write essays and answer questions on poems rather than to actually speak the language properly.

Irish should in my opinion remain compulsory but the method of teaching needs to change - spoken Irish should account for the majority of your grade/result, maybe 60-40 (with 40 being writing and reading).

The problem is desire, or lack thereof. Students are practical and mostly don't want to learn it -
and of they do, power to them - and the nation is mostly happy speaking English.

LordSutch · 19-04-2017 05:39PM

The decision was made in the 1930s to introduce compulsory Irish into each and every Irish school. Obviously the way the language has been taught in the decades since then has been an utter disaster, (otherwise successive generations would have been fluent in our so called "native tongue").
I fully expect mandatory Irish (up to leaving cert) to continue for the foreseeable future, otherwise the whole premise of marking us out as " different" from the British would be lost, and we would once again become too similar to the the other inhabitants of these islands. A linguistic difference successive Irish governments have strived to accentuate (them British, us Irish), we are not the same as them, we speak Irish, they don't .......

Expect your children & your grand children to leave school armed with the 'cupla focal' but don't expect them to be fluent in Irish, as that is not the primary reason we "do Irish" in school.

Wibbs · 19-04-2017 07:08PM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Lads, we need to copy almost exactly how Hebrew was revived or we are going to spend another few decades pumping billions into our own dying language education. That only churns out a handful of fluent speakers after 12+ years of daily teaching. We are getting it absolutely wrong. There's plenty of evidence to suggest we couldn't be doing a much worse job if we tried.

Hebrew revival.

Hebrew was effectively a dead/dormant language in everyday life for Jewish people 100 years ago. It was only used in certain aspects of legal, religious and a few other arenas of life. It is now the dominant language of the state of Israel. They have done 10 times more than us with their language.

Though oft referenced in the Irish debate, Hebrew is a very bad example for a few reasons. The main reason being that the state of Israel was a new state and Jews were coming to the place from all over the Western world, speaking many different languages. In short Israel required a common language to continue and grow. They could have picked any number of European languages*, but figured let's start from essentially scratch with a native Jewish language(ancient Hebrew speakers would find it incredibly difficult if not impossible to understand modern Hebrew speakers and vice versa. It had evolved radically over time with a lot of European influences coming in).

On the other hand Ireland already has a common language and it happens to be English(and it happens to be a very useful one internationally). Almost the entirety of the "native" born Irish population have English as their first language and the vast vast majority of bilingual Irish?English speakers would have a larger vocabulary in same.

*English was a real possibility and before WW2 German of all things was one of the choices near the top of the list of possible common languages. It was used a lot in higher education and the sciences and a lot of the diaspora already spoke it.

Arcade_Tryer · 19-04-2017 07:15PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Irish is our native tongue, there is no good reason why we all shouldn't be fluent.

I'll bite.

Irish is not "our" native tongue. Irish is not my native tongue. And Irish is most likely not your native tongue.

A country does not have a native language. People do. And for the vast majority of people living in this country, English is their native language. Followed by Polish. And then Lithuanian, Chinese, Indian, Irish etc.

Graces7 · 19-04-2017 07:27PM

Maybe this is off topic and sounds trite but as a teacher... Are we talking of Irish as an academic subject or a living language?

If the latter then the real place for "teaching" it is in the home.

I once went to Mass in a Gaeltacht area, entirely in Irish.

When I was chatting with folk afterwards I was deeply impressed by the mothers talking to their little ones in both languages. As I have seen children of parents from two nationalities and languages do.

Little ones who are learning to talk absorb language and become fluent in two languages so easily.

And every language teacher knows how vital visits and time spent in the country of the language is.

FTA69 · 19-04-2017 07:36PM

There's two aspects to this question really:

1) Languages are taught abysmally in Ireland. Absolutely brutal. People often state that Irish is pointless and how nobody can speak it after schooling etc and then simultaneously state we should all be learning German or French instead - ignoring the fact nobody can hold a conversation in a European language either after six years of secondary school. It's a joke. I did five years of French and I learned more and better French being in Algeria for two weeks than I did at the time of sitting my Leaving Cert. I'm conversational in Spanish after two years, because I learned it properly in immersive classes and travelled in Spanish speaking places and practiced it in a social context. Language teaching should be 80% oral at least. The way we're teaching Irish, French and German et al is a massive waste of everyone's time. You go to Denmark or Germany or wherever and you're embarrassed at how much English people speak.

2) I'm a massive fan of the Irish language, it's a hugely important part of our heritage and culture - shaping our names and the names of the places we live in.I often see people from other cultures massively curious about our language and then bewildered about how some people are actively hostile to it. Minority languages such as Euskera, Irish, Welsh, Catalan etc are a treasure and should be preserved.

...And that preservation will come about from those who want to preserve it. We have thriving Gaelscoils, urban Irish language groups in Dublin that are massively popular, classes, music, the whole shebang. Let them at it and support that. Flogging things like compulsory Irish, driving tests in Irish and Gaeltachts (most of which are fake now anyway) isn't going to achieve bog all. It's a fig leaf and not even one which is working.

Make Irish voluntary and make teaching the language a conversational, living thing. It'll do it the world of good in all probability.

FTA69 · 19-04-2017 07:37PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Though oft referenced in the Irish debate, Hebrew is a very bad example for a few reasons. The main reason being that the state of Israel was a new state and Jews were coming to the place from all over the Western world, speaking many different languages. In short Israel required a common language to continue and grow. They could have picked any number of European languages*, but figured let's start from essentially scratch with a native Jewish language(ancient Hebrew speakers would find it incredibly difficult if not impossible to understand modern Hebrew speakers and vice versa. It had evolved radically over time with a lot of European influences coming in).

On the other hand Ireland already has a common language and it happens to be English(and it happens to be a very useful one internationally). Almost the entirety of the "native" born Irish population have English as their first language and the vast vast majority of bilingual Irish?English speakers would have a larger vocabulary in same.

*English was a real possibility and before WW2 German of all things was one of the choices near the top of the list of possible common languages. It was used a lot in higher education and the sciences and a lot of the diaspora already spoke it.

Spot on. Basque is a much better example.

An Ciarraioch · 19-04-2017 07:41PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Spot on. Basque is a much better example.

Or indeed, Catalan, as mentioned on the first page.

doolox · 19-04-2017 07:47PM

Irish only had a very peripheral part of my families lives since they all came from the midlands and East Galway going back 5 generations.

People who say Irish is our native tongue are only counting the Post Famine west coast as "real" Irish people as if the Anglophone majority do not count as Irishmen.

The status of compulsory Irish creates a huge resentment among English speaking people who are faced with the burden of attempting to learn it in competition with Native Irish speakers who are mostly bilingual...it is rare nowadays to find a Gaeltacht inhabitant who struggles at English but this was not unusual when I went to school. This evened things up a bit since I struggled at Irish and they struggled at English. (Education is a competitive activity which determines your future position in life).

In order to play fair there should be a minimum standard of the core subjects set at a rudimentary level available to study for all students. If they are finding Pass or honours Irish too onerous there should be a foundation level available to allow them to survive matriculation to the national University where Irish ,at least a pass, is compulsory to get in. As far as I know you cannot fail the leaving cert by failing Irish as was the case at one time but every LC student has to attend and sit the Irish exam compulsorily and unconditionally unless they have come from abroad over 11yrs of age where they get an exemption. However they must pass another language for university entrance if they don't have Irish. I don't think Irish will be got rid of in my lifetime and there is probably no point looking for it to be made optional at LC level. The pro Irish lobby is still too powerful.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 19-04-2017 07:51PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Maybe this is off topic and sounds trite but as a teacher... Are we talking of Irish as an academic subject or a living language?

If the latter then the real place for "teaching" it is in the home.

I once went to Mass in a Gaeltacht area, entirely in Irish.

When I was chatting with folk afterwards I was deeply impressed by the mothers talking to their little ones in both languages. As I have seen children of parents from two nationalities and languages do.

Little ones who are learning to talk absorb language and become fluent in two languages so easily.

And every language teacher knows how vital visits and time spent in the country of the language is.

Gealtacht areas are a joke. The 2016 census shows only 32% of those in Gealtacht areas ever spoke Irish outside the classroom. A deplorable figure for those areas. Children will not learn the language at home because it is not sufficiently fluent in the home.

It is no longer a living language and will never be again as things stand.

mickmac76 · 19-04-2017 07:54PM

I found Irish to be a nightmare in school and am strongly against compulsory Irish in schools. I do think it should be taught in all schools but on an optional basis. Also it shouldn't be a requirement for college, the army,gardai or civil service.

FTA69 · 19-04-2017 08:00PM

Lyle Swift Gesture wrote: »

.

It is no longer a living language and will never be again as things stand.

Define living though. There are thriving schools across Ireland where the language is spoken on a fluent basis by young people. There are many couples who speak Irish with their children in the home across the country (probably more outside the Gaeltacht than in it at this stage). If you look up Irish language meetups in Dublin there are thousands of people joined those groups. The Gaelgeori society in my college was always thriving. Videos on YouTube of Irish and songs in it have millions of views.

It's far from dead by any means.

Graces7 · 19-04-2017 08:05PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Define living though. There are thriving schools across Ireland where the language is spoken on a fluent basis by young people. There are many couples who speak Irish with their children in the home across the country (probably more outside the Gaeltacht than in it at this stage). If you look up Irish language meetups in Dublin there are thousands of people joined those groups. The Gaelgeori society in my college was always thriving. Videos on YouTube of Irish and songs in it have millions of views.

It's far from dead by any means.

Amen to this and well said. That is what I saw and heard that day and others.

I was deeply moved and impressed although I felt like an outsider - which I am.... Hearing those children ....

AudreyHepburn · 19-04-2017 08:08PM

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

There is, no one wants to f**king learn it or f**king speak it

First off there's no need to get agressive, we're just having a normal adult conversation. Calm down.

Second speak for yourself, there are people who would love to be fluent myself included.

AudreyHepburn · 19-04-2017 08:11PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The problem is desire, or lack thereof. Students are practical and mostly don't want to learn it -
and of they do, power to them - and the nation is mostly happy speaking English.

Agreed and I firmly believe the lack of desire could be dealt with if the way the language was taught was changed as I mentioned in my previous post.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 19-04-2017 08:14PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Define living though. There are thriving schools across Ireland where the language is spoken on a fluent basis by young people. There are many couples who speak Irish with their children in the home across the country (probably more outside the Gaeltacht than in it at this stage). If you look up Irish language meetups in Dublin there are thousands of people joined those groups. The Gaelgeori society in my college was always thriving. Videos on YouTube of Irish and songs in it have millions of views.

It's far from dead by any means.

Only 4%, of those who said they could speak Irish, do so on a regular basis according to the 2016 census. 4% of Irish speakers, less than 2% of the total population. And the number dropped by 3,400 in the past 5 years. The facts don't cheer me but I see them as reflecting my own experience - our household contains some of the 4% by the way.

FTA69 · 19-04-2017 08:18PM

Lyle Swift Gesture wrote: »

Only 4%, of those who said they could speak Irish, do so on a regular basis according to the 2016 census. 4% of Irish speakers, less than 2% of the total population. And the number dropped by 3,400 in the past 5 years. The facts don't cheer me but I see them as reflecting my own experience - our household contains some of the 4% by the way.

I'm honestly not having a go or trying to be smart; but it's far from dead. There are thousands of young fluent speakers, hundreds of Gaelscoillena and as such it lives. It isn't Manx or Cornish like.

I don't believe that it will ever supplant English but there's no reason there can't be a thriving minority language in Ireland the same way there is in the Basque Country or Wales. Sorting out the teaching method is the first step in that though but as always in Ireland inertia will most likely prevail.

Wibbs · 19-04-2017 08:42PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Spot on. Basque is a much better example.

It is and it isn't FT. The first hit it took was a large migration of Spanish speakers into the area in the 19th century. These newcomers made Basque the "peasant" language and Spanish the language of education, commerce and law(not unlike how Irish drifted westward under the influence of English) Later on during Franco's time there was a very real and sustained attempt to wipe the Basque language out in Spain. Even giving your kids Basque names was banned for a time. After Franco died, there was a revival that took root among the people and pretty rapidly took off.

The problem with the Irish language and the Irish people is that when the shackles of London fell away(there were more Irish speakers then than now) there seems beyond all the wishful thinking and rhetoric(on both sides) there was and remains little actual grass roots desire to retake the language as "ours". There was and is a huge amount of top down investment, advantages for Irish speakers etc, but it still didn't take among the majority population.

Take the Civil Service, where once Irish was compulsory in the day to day business of the office. This compulsion was removed one Friday and the very next Monday most went over to English. And consider, these were people who were already fluent.

Look further to the Irish diaspora throughout the world. The majority of those immigrants in the 19th century would have been fluent in the language. And again at nearly the moment their shoe leather hit foreign soil they dropped the language. This is in sharp contrast to pretty much every other immigrant group. The Chinese contained to speak Chinese, the Italians spoke Italian(though that tapered off), the Spanish spoke Spanish, Jews kept Yiddish going and so on. German was the second language by numbers in the US until the First World War. Today there are far more fluent Dutch speakers among Dutch Americans who number in the couple of million mark, than there are fluent Irish speakers among Irish Americans who number in the over thirty million mark.

In short that regardless of top down wishes, legislation and investment and our collective wishy washy wishful thinking it seems like the Irish people really don't want the language for themselves beyond lip service, usually and ironically as Bearla. We may not want it to die out, but the vast majority do little to speak it.

FTA69 · 19-04-2017 09:02PM

Ireland and Euskal Herria have many differences but also similarities. The key similarity I suppose is that they all share a common, dominant and official language in Spanish but there is a thriving Basque scene as well. I've been to concerts over there with thousands of young people attending Basque language rock bands (usually too p*ssed to remember the details unfortunately) and likewise they have the Ikestola, their hugely popular version of the Gaelscoil.

Today there is nowhere near the same official repression of the language there, but it's cool and young people are into it and they want to learn it. Likewise many Basques couldn't give a sh*t about it and some are actually hostile to it for similar reasons some people here are.

I suppose I'll go back to my original point, there are people supporting Irish today in many dynamic ways and that should be supported wholly. Cumpolsury education and the preservations of Gaeltacht aren't the way forward anyway, as 90 years of state policy has shown.

whisky_galore · 19-04-2017 09:23PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

First off there's no need to get agressive, we're just having a normal adult conversation. Calm down.

Second speak for yourself, there are people who would love to be fluent myself included.

This is the nub of the issue. The "ah shur twould be great if I could speak it" sector of the population who would hate to see the language dying out and are in favour of compulsory Irish in schoils but who won't get off their asses to do anything about it themselves.
The language is great, in their opinion and should be preserved and nurtured.... provided someone else does the work.

At least I'm being honest, not speaking it nor caring less what happens to it.

19-04-2017 09:30PM

Teaching of Irish in National schools seems to have changes in recent times? More conversations and fun, the way it should be.

Secondary schools are behind the times.

amtc · 19-04-2017 09:35PM

Just to clarify. Irish is not compulsory. I have the front page of the Irish Times of the day I was born (Aprl 5 1973) and it states that the compulsory nature of it was rescinded.

19-04-2017 09:42PM

More opportunities for people with languages, even Irish. It definitely should be promoted more for kids. Good money to be made translating for one. Know quite a few that use Irish in their line of work.

Great life skill to have.

Compulsory Irish in schools

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