Compulsory Irish in schools

Foxhound38 · 19-04-2017 01:25PM #1

Richard Bruton has announced today a plan for all Junior Cert students to be studying a foreign language in the next few years.

I am all for that (in fact I thought it was already the case) - anything that helps our young communicate with a larger share of the world than they already can is a plus in my book.

Which brings me to the question in the thread - is our insistence on compulsory Irish in the curriculum worth the cost in terms of both money and the time that could be spent teaching something else?

Don't get me wrong, it should always be an option for those that wish to take it, but given the lack of real world utility for this language (given that the people who use it can also communicate in English perfectly well when the situation calls for it - unlike for example the majority of those who predominantly communicate through Mandarin Chinese or Russian for example) beyond what is essentially a hobby for the gaeilgeoir communuity, does it even do the language any favors to force it down the throats of those that can't see any use for it, at least at Leaving Cert level when most students are likely stressing about subjects that they may be more likely to actually use in later life? This way too, those that actually WANT to study the language can at a level that doesn't need to take into account the uninterested.

What think you, AH?

biko · 19-04-2017 01:31PM

I think this have been discussed a couple times before

On topic, I see no need to teach Lithuanian and Polish in school, but Spanish, French, German and Mandarin could be very useful.
There should be still Irish taught, but in a different way that focus less on grammar and more on practical applications.

Sleepy · 19-04-2017 01:32PM

No, it isn't. But there'll be a dozen posters along in the next few minutes that I'm not a "real" Irishman for believing so and that I'm ignorant of our "culture".

Chancer3001 · 19-04-2017 01:33PM

Yawn

eviltwin · 19-04-2017 01:34PM

It should always be an optional subject. It makes no sense to me that we teach our children a language that has no practical use outside our little island at the expense of other more useful subjects. We waste time on religion and irish and don't have adequate PE, science or computing but hopefully in time that will change.

Ken. · 19-04-2017 01:35PM

Mod-Sorry but I'm going to jump in here early. This has been a very emotive topic before in After Hours. Please keep it civil.

Mrs OBumble · 19-04-2017 01:36PM

Yes. Learning any 2nd language from a young age helps give people the skills to learn a 3rd etc.

We have more teachers qualified to teach kids irish than to teach them a useful 2nd language.

MrMorooka · 19-04-2017 01:40PM

I'd be interested in hearing if there is any anglophone country that successfully teaches a foreign language in schools, such that there is actually a decent level of ability in the general population. Maybe Canada with French?

To me it seems that there is no established method of foreign language learning for English-speaking countries, like how in many European countries people generally have a decent level of fluency in English as well as their native language and maybe another. I can't think of an English speaking country where that is the case, anglophone=monolingual usually. Would love to hear more about Canada in that respect.

Agricola · 19-04-2017 01:48PM

Im assuming it hasn't changed much in 15 odd years but Irish always had the wrong vibe in primary & secondary school. This gobbledegook that we all knew we'd never need and which was rammed down our throats with way too much emphasis on the academic/grammatic side of it, as opposed to real world applications.

The money and man hours that has been sank into it over decades can only be viewed as a waste of resources. I don't care what the aspirational census says, only a small percentage of the population can carry a conversation in Irish. It's time to make it optional.

An Ciarraioch · 19-04-2017 02:12PM

Agricola wrote: »

Im assuming it hasn't changed much in 15 odd years but Irish always had the wrong vibe in primary & secondary school. This gobbledegook that we all knew we'd never need and which was rammed down our throats with way too much emphasis on the academic/grammatic side of it, as opposed to real world applications.

The money and man hours that has been sank into it over decades can only be viewed as a waste of resources. I don't care what the aspirational census says, only a small percentage of the population can carry a conversation in Irish. It's time to make it optional.

There has reportedly been a greater shift towards oral Irish at all levels, perhaps the total immersion approach would be best for teaching all languages. As for the main topic, keep it compulsory at primary level, perhaps up to Junior Cert, but make it optional for the Leaving Cert. Portuguese would seem the most useful addition of the proposed languages, given the rise of Brazil.

Arcade_Tryer · 19-04-2017 02:39PM

Barbie! wrote: »

Mod-Sorry but I'm going to jump in here early. This has been a very emotive topic before in After Hours. Please keep it civil.

This is essentially the problem with compulsory Irish and nationalism based policy in general. Reason and logic are trumped by emotion and tradition. And any attempt to make a counter argument to compulsory Irish is inevitably greeted by accusations concerning culture and heritage and so on.

Ormus · 19-04-2017 02:54PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Richard Bruton has announced today a plan for all Junior Cert students to be studying a foreign language in the next few years.

Which brings me to the question in the thread - is our insistence on compulsory Irish in the curriculum worth the cost in terms of both money and the time that could be spent teaching something else?

What think you, AH?

Of course it's not worth it. It's not supposed to be worth it in terms of money or in terms of the time that could be spent teaching something else.

The writers of the Constitution took the view that some things are worth more than just money, and that preserving the status of our native language is something which needs to be protected and enshrined in our Constitution.

I think this was well-intentioned, but ill-advised. I look at the North of Spain, where the Catalans go to great lengths to learn their native tongue, against the wishes of their national government. In this country, we constantly complain about our national government forcing us to learn our native tongue.

We've long since passed the time when Irish had any significant utility. Maybe if Irish were optional it would ignite a new passion for it in some.

But please don't blame the Government for upholding the Constitution.

judeboy101 · 19-04-2017 02:58PM

MrMorooka wrote: »

I'd be interested in hearing if there is any anglophone country that successfully teaches a foreign language in schools, such that there is actually a decent level of ability in the general population. Maybe Canada with French?

To me it seems that there is no established method of foreign language learning for English-speaking countries, like how in many European countries people generally have a decent level of fluency in English as well as their native language and maybe another. I can't think of an English speaking country where that is the case, anglophone=monolingual usually. Would love to hear more about Canada in that respect.

Wales teaches welsh as a brilliant 2nd language

One eyed Jack · 19-04-2017 03:06PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Which brings me to the question in the thread - is our insistence on compulsory Irish in the curriculum worth the cost in terms of both money and the time that could be spent teaching something else?

Just because it's badly taught (that's the waste of time and money), doesn't mean IMO it shouldn't be taught. However, it's going to become much harder to keep it compulsory when there are more and more children starting in schools who have to attend EAL classes and are exempted from Irish. I was glad to have my child taught Irish by teachers who were actually passionate about the language, and I have plenty of friends who are non-nationals who are actually hungry to learn Irish. I always do a trade with them that I'll teach them Irish, if they teach me their native language. I can speak several languages now, and one of the lads in work is teaching me Sanskrit.

I always figured I'd learn German before now, but I've no German friends.

Parchment · 19-04-2017 03:08PM

I think it would be so sad to see Irish die out.

19-04-2017 03:15PM

Honestly, I think it's time to rip off the band-aid and make Irish optional from Secondary level and on, it just isn't worth it anymore.
I went to an Irish primary school and Secondary school, and, aside from talking with relatives briefly over in the Gaeltacht, it's never been of any use to me.

It's not even the waste of money, resources and man hours that have been put into it over the years that annoys me, it's more so what we could've used those instead for, like more hours spent on Mathematics and French, or even more of an emphasis on Coding and Computing and Critical Thinking!

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 19-04-2017 03:21PM

Lads, we need to copy almost exactly how Hebrew was revived or we are going to spend another few decades pumping billions into our own dying language education. That only churns out a handful of fluent speakers after 12+ years of daily teaching. We are getting it absolutely wrong. There's plenty of evidence to suggest we couldn't be doing a much worse job if we tried.

Hebrew revival.

Hebrew was effectively a dead/dormant language in everyday life for Jewish people 100 years ago. It was only used in certain aspects of legal, religious and a few other arenas of life. It is now the dominant language of the state of Israel. They have done 10 times more than us with their language.

Everyone of us learned how to speak English through active participation in it. You 'live it' in a conversational context first and foremost. We teach Irish through a teacher talking 90%+ of the time and learning liom, leat, leis, lei, linn, libh, leo, and all those other ones over and over until we know it off by heart. But when we need to apply this learning in a real application most people will splutter through the most basic of sentences in a barely understandable way.

Primary school should be almost entirely about conversational Irish being taught. In secondary school you can teach the correct spellings and grammar and all that. But once you can hold a chat, the aim that has been so far missed for so long can actually be achieved. And **** Peig Sayers into to the bin.

pjohnson · 19-04-2017 03:25PM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Lads, we need to copy almost exactly how Hebrew was revived or we are going to spend another few decades pumping billions into our own dying language education. That only churns out a handful of fluent speakers after 12+ years of daily teaching. We are getting it absolutely wrong. There's plenty of evidence to suggest we couldn't be doing a much worse job if we tried.

Hebrew revival.

Hebrew was effectively a dead/dormant language in everyday life for Jewish people 100 years ago. It was only used in certain aspects of legal, religious and a few other arenas of life. It is now the dominant language of the state of Israel. They have done 10 times more than us with their language.

Everyone of us learned how to speak English through active participation in it. You 'live it' in a conversational context first and foremost. We teach Irish through a teacher talking 90%+ of the time and learning liom, leat, leis, lei, linn, libh, leo, and all those other ones over and over until we know it off by heart. But when we need to apply this learning in a real application most people will splutter through the most basic of sentences in a barely understandable way.

Primary school should be almost entirely about conversational Irish being taught. In secondary school you can teach the correct spellings and grammar and all that. But once you can hold a chat, the aim that has been so far missed for so long can actually be achieved. And **** Peig Sayers into to the bin.

Whats your name as gaeilge?

Foxhound38 · 19-04-2017 03:31PM

Parchment wrote: »

I think it would be so sad to see Irish die out.

If the difference between a language living and dying is its compulsory status in the last two years of secondary schooling, I think the issues speak for themselves here.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 19-04-2017 03:33PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Whats your name as gaeilge?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo as Gaeilge is Sile.

And by happy chance that's also the name of a female in native Australian.

So have all my bases covered.

cruizer101 · 19-04-2017 03:39PM

Should definitely be optional throughout secondary.

People argue Irish would die out without it being mandatory, I don't think that's is the case as it being mandatory did nothing to encourage me to want to take it up if anything it discouraged it.

Its a bit of a s**t or get of the pot one, either radically change how it it taught or get rid of it, its pointless keeping it as it is.

I'd also argue other subjects need the same treatment, English as it is currently taught is more of an irrelevant English literature subject. If we are to have a subject on our own language it should be useful, teach people proper grammar, how to read and write technical reports not feckin shakespeare.

jamesbere · 19-04-2017 03:44PM

There first mistake is trying to teach Irish to Irish people, it was never going to work

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-04-2017 04:07PM

Been over this: the arguments in favour of are fallacy:

"They should learn a second language"
- I agree: but why should that langauge be Irish?
- they aren't "learning" a lanaguge - they're learning a school subject.

"They should learn to love their heritgae"
- how do you know it's "theirs" when you don't know them?
- why should the automatically "love" it anyway?

"They should learn it because the Gaelteach will go out of business if they don't!" (yes, this has been used)
- it's not the responsibility of teenagers to prop up an ailing economy by creating a false demand.

"They did it with Welsh and Hebrew"
- we're not Welsh and we're not Hebrew.

"They should do it in order to learn that some thigns are hard and can't be avoided"
- then why not just get them to dig holes in gardens?

Sooner it's status is dropped the better.

19-04-2017 04:14PM

We're soon going to be the only English-speaking country in the EU. It's going from 13% of the EU being native speakers to about 1% along with Finnish, Danish and Slovak. ****ing right we should be learning useful languages other than English. Again, as the vast majority of people know the issue with Irish is with the system of teaching and the dictatorial message behind it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-04-2017 04:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

We're soon going to be the only English-speaking country in the EU. It's going from 13% of the EU being native speakers to about 1% along with Finnish, Danish and Slovak. ****ing right we should be learning useful languages other than English. Again, as the vast majority of people know the issue with Irish is with the system of teaching and the dictatorial message behind it.

...??

An Ciarraioch · 19-04-2017 04:23PM

The Maori teaching method:

http://www.newswire.co.nz/2011/07/maori-immersion-communities-the-saviour-of-the-maori-language/

cnocbui · 19-04-2017 04:26PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

...??

I think they mean that Irish is a considerable pointless waste of time and effort and that those would be better spent on learning other EU languages besides English.

Walter H Price · 19-04-2017 04:28PM

I was dyslexic in English (but only got diagnosed late in the day 6th year) so Irish was an absolute nightmare always , total waste of time and stress for me had i not had to waste so much time on Irish, i probably would have done better overall , i never would have chosen it as a subject and tbh it being compulsory achieved nothing for me i cant speak or understand a word of it today despite 11 years of it being drilled into me.

On top of the dyslexia we had a teacher from the north for 4th and 5th class in primary school who couldn't speak Irish as a result we only had about 5 classes over 2 years , all the lads i new from that class struggled all through secondary because we were so far behind.

I think by secondary all subjects should be optional , to be honest by the time you come out of primary you can read and write and do basic maths you don't really need any further in those subjects either unless you intend on pursuing a professional career or a career in the STEM industries , i honestly think I've used as much second level Maths as i have Irish or Geography since leaving school , none play any role at all in my work or personal life.

Make it optional what harm some will pick it some wont , who cares.

Sesame · 19-04-2017 04:29PM

I spent 14 years learning Irish and I could barely string an Irish sentence together now.

What a waste of hours of learning that could have been used to learn taxes, philosophy, how mortgages work, self-defence, civics, the difference between a non-contributory and contributory pension. You know, the stuff I'm actually finding out lately that I know very little about.

Its easy to understand that people don't want to see a part of our culture die, but that's what museums are for.
If we want to preserve our own language and associated stories, put them in a museum and let school tours visit it.

It's overkill to insist upon all children spending hours of their week for years learning something that is useless in real life.
No wonder our country is so backwards in some regards when we are churning out young adults who can recite rosaries and Irish verbs to beat the band.

19-04-2017 04:33PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

...??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-04-2017 04:37PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit

Ahhh.... good point

Compulsory Irish in schools

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