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Increase in people identifying as having No Religion

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    #62
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    darjeeling wrote: »
    There must be quite a lot of couples where one is religious and the other isn't. Not least because there are getting on for ~50k fewer women with no religion than men. Maybe some of these couples are putting their children down as religious?

    Some are because of the baptism barrier,
    We have a flawed school system with schools outright ignoring the Irish constitutions in their policy's, while that exists parents fear they won't get their child into the local tax payer paid for school.


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    #63
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It’s hard to account for the sharp rise in the “not stated” category, but I’m going to hazard two guesses. The first is that it’s an unintended spinoff from the campaign that encouraged non-believers to tick “no religion”. It may be that some people found the arguments somewhat persuasive, but not convincing, and have responded by dropping their former religious identification, but not ticking “no religion”. The other guess is that this could represent the growth of a truly secular cohort of Irish society who have been brought up in families where religious belief, practice and identification was simply absent. They’re not interested in religion or religious questions and never have been, and “do you believe?” is a question that they have simply never found any reason to try and answer.

    As I say, they’re just wild guesses.
    Interesting idea, and it would be interesting to know how many people in Ireland today have been brought up in a truly "religion free" environment.
    I'm inclined to disagree with your hypothesis though, because of the lack of separation between church and state in Irish society. Its something that any such people would find particularly jarring. Much more so than for those who were brought up in a religious environment, who hardly notice it.
    The school places issue being a prime example.

    There are one or two posting on this forum who have identified as being raised in a non-religious family, and posting here indicates that they are not completely "indifferent" to all matters concerning religion.

    IMO the “not stated” category is more likely to be ticked by somebody who is just opposed to being asked the question (ie none of your business)
    Bear in mind that filling in the census is compulsory, so there are some people who will fill it in to avoid trouble, but will disclose as little info as possible in doing so.

    But yeah, if there really was a cohort out there who were "not interested in religion or religious questions and never have been, and “do you believe?” is a question that they have simply never found any reason to try and answer." then we would have arrived at some kind of secular utopia. Its still a long way off though, IMO.


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    #64
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    In fairness school places will effect everyone regardless of any interest or background in religion.

    It makes sense that people with a background in RC are most likely to be oblivious to it. That's an excellent observation. Many are fair weather Catholics and are content to be that, no more but no less either.

    I think it's great to see how it changing in the census. Ireland needs change. I thought it would be more dramatic though.


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    #65
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    There are one or two posting on this forum who have identified as being raised in a non-religious family, and posting here indicates that they are not completely "indifferent" to all matters concerning religion.

    I'd be one of those, with both my folks atheist, and of course my kids. Very difficult to be indifferent about religion when on the one hand we have a church trying to foist their beliefs on my children and other the other a morality pushed on us which up until very recently was almost solely informed by religious dogma.


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    #66
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    beauf wrote: »
    In fairness school places will effect everyone regardless of any interest or background in religion.

    It makes sense that people with a background in RC are most likely to be oblivious to it. That's an excellent observation. Many are fair weather Catholics and are content to be that, no more but no less either.

    I think it's great to see how it changing in the census. Ireland needs change. I thought it would be more dramatic though.
    Yes, the absolute increase in people declaring themselves as having no religion in 2016 was only an increase of 4 percentage points from 2011 (9.83% v 5.88%).

    Much of this increase may not be due to more people becoming Atheists ... it may be simply people who were Roman Catholic who have been so scandalised by the various revelations about this church, that they no longer identify with any religion - while still believing in God.


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    #67
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,349 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's simply idiotic to suggest that significant numbers of believers are ticking 'no religion'. A religious belief of any sort is not 'no religion'. But if all you have to grasp are straws...

    Interesting that the rate of NR for 0-9 year olds is three times that for 10-14 year olds, and is similar to the peak NR adult age group. The parents of the future are increasingly non-religious and will be looking for non-religious education for their children.

    Some interesting stories on religion in education on the RTE news website recently, which I'll post shortly in the school patronage thread.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #68
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,382 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    J C wrote: »
    Yes, the absolute increase in people declaring themselves as having no religion in 2016 was only an increase of 4 percentage points from 2011 (9.83% v 5.88%).

    Much of this increase may not be due to more people becoming Atheists ... it may be simply people who were Roman Catholic who have been so scandalised by the various revelations about this church, that they no longer identify with any religion - while still believing in God.

    Or... it may be simply people who have no religion. Y'know, like the question asked.

    Any claims that any significant proportion of those people do believe in God or are protesting the church or are still highly spiritual are baseless claims to soothe a bruised ego that for whatever reason, people are turning away from religion.


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    #69
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I wouldn't be worked up about it. If there were any who did. It won't change the trend.


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    #70
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,382 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    beauf wrote: »
    I wouldn't be worked up about it. If there were any who did. It won't change the trend.

    Exactly. People like David Quinn trot out the same lines each time about how some of the No Religions are still spiritual, still believe in God but might not want to follow the church etc in order to try and make it seem like the number of people who believe in God in Ireland isn't in decline.

    It is. It is in decline.


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    #71
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,161 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    J C wrote: »
    Much of this increase may not be due to more people becoming Atheists ... it may be simply people who were Roman Catholic who have been so scandalised by the various revelations about this church, that they no longer identify with any religion - while still believing in God.
    If people no longer associate with the Catholic Church, buy their belief in God is unchanged they should be selecting Christian and not No Religion


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    #72
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    beauf wrote: »
    I would expect the rate of decline in RC will rapidly as the clergy is vanishing. But even with the decline in 10 yrs RC will still be dominant.

    Religion should not be in state schools regardless of that.

    Just look at the decline in clergy numbers and church services in the last 10 years to see where things are going.

    Regardless, the Census is not an accurate measure of the number of Catholics in the country. A better metric would be to look at church attendance, or even better, church donations from weekly services.

    You'd get a much better story from that!


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    #73
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    I was surprised to see that only 20% of UK identified as having no religion and of that 20% some of them believe that there is life after death.
    I was even more surprised that 78% here still identify as RC.
    I would have thought with all the continuing scandals it would have been far less.


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    #74
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,161 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    eeguy wrote: »
    Regardless, the Census is not an accurate measure of the number of Catholics in the country. A better metric would be to look at church attendance, or even better, church donations from weekly services.
    A better metric how? Because it suits the antitheology agenda or some other reason.


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    #75
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Mellor wrote: »
    A better metric how? Because it suits the antitheology agenda or some other reason.

    No, because it relies on facts and records rather than some vaguely worded survey.
    Self reporting is the most unreliable form of survey. People lie, and they quite often lie to themselves. You may tick the Catholic box out of some misplaced catholic guilt despite not going to mass since you were a child or having no interest in religion outside getting your child christened or going to a wedding.

    That's not accurate. You'd get a much better idea of church attendance by looking at takings throughout the years. More collection money means more adults attending mass. You can't fake the figures. Sure it's not 100% accurate but it's better than the census


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    #76
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Penn wrote: »
    Exactly. People like David Quinn trot out the same lines each time about how some of the No Religions are still spiritual, still believe in God but might not want to follow the church etc in order to try and make it seem like the number of people who believe in God in Ireland isn't in decline. It is. It is in decline.

    There no doubt it's in decline.

    But that doesn't mean there aren't people who believe in God but not organized religion. I would assume its such a low % to have no meaningful effect on the census.


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    #77
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    eeguy wrote: »
    ... More collection money means more adults attending mass. You can't fake the figures. Sure it's not 100% accurate but it's better than the census

    Might simply be a wealthier parish or larger parish. Boom times or recession. It's a totally flawed metric.

    There's no need to look beyond the census for data.

    Telling people what religion they are, or what they believe sounds very like organised religion. Ironic.


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    #78
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,161 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    eeguy wrote: »
    No, because it relies on facts and records rather than some vaguely worded survey.
    Self reporting is the most unreliable form of survey. People lie, and they quite often lie to themselves. You may tick the Catholic box out of some misplaced catholic guilt despite not going to mass since you were a child or having no interest in religion outside getting your child christened or going to a wedding.

    That's not accurate. You'd get a much better idea of church attendance by looking at takings throughout the years. More collection money means more adults attending mass. You can't fake the figures. Sure it's not 100% accurate but it's better than the census
    I also noticed that you've moved the goalposts there, you went from;
    measure of the number of Catholics in the country
    to
    much better idea of church attendance

    Of course records of attendance will give an better record of attendance, that's it. Hardly an insightful observation.

    I find it ridiculous that you're trying to make up standards that people need to achieve in order to be allow to identify with a made up invisible man in the sky.


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It's not as if everyone arguing here isn't aware of the role they're performing and the role of everyone else but alright....

    If you aren't attending mass and don't adhere to catholic beliefs in any way whatsoever and are only culturally catholic in the same way you're culturally Irish - born into it, learnt a bit about it at school, apparently it was worth dying and killing for once, isn't it nice that we have kfc now tho eh things are better now aren't they- then the census should be set up to glean this important information.

    Because it would be very very important to have this clearly set out for ppl on the internet who want to claim that Ireland is an actual catholic country when it comes to making ridiculous arguments relating to actual real world issues.


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Essentially I'm disappointed that real Catholics aren't telling boxticking Catholics that it's a sin to lie (even when the results are politically expedient for the real Catholics)

    Shame on yis imo


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    #81
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Mellor wrote: »
    ... records of attendance will give an better record of attendance, that's it. ....

    Unless there aren't any as in this case


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    #82
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    eeguy wrote: »
    No, because it relies on facts and records rather than some vaguely worded survey.
    Self reporting is the most unreliable form of survey. People lie, and they quite often lie to themselves. You may tick the Catholic box out of some misplaced catholic guilt despite not going to mass since you were a child or having no interest in religion outside getting your child christened or going to a wedding.

    That's not accurate. You'd get a much better idea of church attendance by looking at takings throughout the years. More collection money means more adults attending mass. You can't fake the figures. Sure it's not 100% accurate but it's better than the census

    All this is wishful thinking on your behalf.
    I don't fully understand why or how other peoples religious beliefs, or lack of them can be such a source of irritation or even interest to others.
    The fact that 78% of the country identify as Catholic should explain to you why there are not pickets on the school gates demanding that the running of the schools be removed from the religious orders.
    Some people are unhappy with the current state of affairs but 78% are not unhappy.
    If you are an atheist or an agnostic and you don't feel any affiliation with any religion because obviously you know that either God in any form doesn't exist or at least you've seen no evidence that a higher being exists, and organised religion is pretty ridiculous and pretty harmful and a cause of much harm, then what on earth would cause you, a grown ass adult, to feel "guilty " enough to tick Catholic in the privacy of your own home?
    I don't understand what you mean by that and I'd love for you to explain further.


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    #83
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Essentially I'm disappointed that real Catholics aren't telling boxticking Catholics that it's a sin to lie (even when the results are politically expedient for the real Catholics)

    Shame on yis imo

    You might as well suggest that you're not Irish unless your fluent in the Irish language , and only eat potatoes.

    I don't know why ye think all these insane ideas are needed. Next you'll be suggesting the Spanish Inquisition to determine what people believe in.

    There is no need. It's just logical that state and religion should be separate. Regards of how many believe in anything.


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    #84
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    infogiver wrote: »
    ...
    I don't fully understand why or how other peoples religious beliefs, or lack of them can be such a source of irritation or even interest to others.
    ...

    School places.


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    #85
    topmanamillion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭topmanamillion


    infogiver wrote: »
    All this is wishful thinking on your behalf.
    I don't fully understand why or how other peoples religious beliefs, or lack of them can be such a source of irritation or even interest to others.
    The fact that 78% of the country identify as Catholic should explain to you why there are not pickets on the school gates demanding that the running of the schools be removed from the religious orders.
    Some people are unhappy with the current state of affairs but 78% are not unhappy.
    If you are an atheist or an agnostic and you don't feel any affiliation with any religion because obviously you know that either God in any form doesn't exist or at least you've seen no evidence that a higher being exists, and organised religion is pretty ridiculous and pretty harmful and a cause of much harm, then what on earth would cause you, a grown ass adult, to feel "guilty " enough to tick Catholic in the privacy of your own home?
    I don't understand what you mean by that and I'd love for you to explain further.

    I think you`re really trying to take the glass half full approach here.
    I would contend that censi are fundamentally flawed as an exercise.
    People put down falsehoods on censi for all kinds of reasons, ranging from they don't want the census enumerator (usually a local) to know their business to its simply what was always put down and its a habit.
    It is a fact that the number of practicing Catholics has taken a nose dive in this country in the recent past. There isn't a hope the number of practicing Catholics/home prayers is anywhere close to 78% of Ireland population (circa 3.7 million people).
    The scarcity of trainees in Maynooth is a good indicator of that fact.
    As has been alluded to on this thread already there are much better mechanisms by which to measure this than in a census.


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    #86
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    beauf wrote: »
    School places.

    But at least 78% of the citizens don't have any problem with "school places".
    A good proportion of the remaining 22% don't care one way or the other.
    Or there would be protests on the schools gates and people keeping their kids home till something's done about it.


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    #87
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    topmanamillion wrote: »
    I think you`re really trying to take the glass half full approach here.
    I would contend that censi are fundamentally flawed as an exercise.
    People put down falsehoods on censi for all kinds of reasons, ranging from they don't want the census enumerator (usually a local) to know their business to its simply what was always put down and its a habit.
    It is a fact that the number of practicing Catholics has taken a nose dive in this country in the recent past. There isn't a hope the number of practicing Catholics/home prayers is anywhere close to 78% of Ireland population (circa 3.7 million people).
    The scarcity of trainees in Maynooth is a good indicator of that fact.
    As has been alluded to on this thread already there are much better mechanisms by which to measure this than in a census.

    If you didn't want the enumerator to know your business then you rang up for an envelope to send it back in.


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    #88
    topmanamillion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭topmanamillion


    infogiver wrote: »
    If you didn't want the enumerator to know your business then you rang up for an envelope to send it back in.

    Ah this is clearly a wind up now.


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    #89
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    infogiver wrote: »
    But at least 78% of the citizens don't have any problem with "school places".
    A good proportion of the remaining 22% don't care one way or the other.
    Or there would be protests on the schools gates and people keeping their kids home till something's done about it.

    Many of that 78 will have other problems with school places. They just don't have a problem with the religion aspect of it.

    There are protests just not at the school gates. Since that would be terrible idea.

    Lots of threads about school places on boards. Huge issue locally where ever there's Shortage of places.


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    #90
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    topmanamillion wrote: »
    ..m
    I would contend that censi are fundamentally flawed as an exercise.
    ....

    Was anyone expecting it to be flawless?

    It's good enough.


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    #91
    topmanamillion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,319 ✭✭✭topmanamillion


    beauf wrote: »
    Was anyone expecting it to be flawless?

    It's good enough.
    It forms a fundamental part of infrastructure, healthcare and other public service planning for the next numbers of years.
    Its needs to be a tad better than "good enough".


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