Truck driven into crowd in Stockholm - No Speculation

masculinist · 09-04-2017 06:01PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

the middle east simply dosn't do democracy.

Iran should have been a beacon of democracy and stability in that region. It had a democratically elected government which was overthrown by western powers back in the 50s because it wanted to nationalize its oil companies and the subsequent ruler, the Shah had a reputation as worse than Hitler. Women marched against the veil when the Islamists took over later on. Islamism was probably the only way they could get rid of a tyrannical regime and instal it with another crappy one just slightly less crappy. So although the whole place is a mess, there must be some seed of a will towards democracy there among the young people.

Depp · 09-04-2017 06:07PM

masculinist wrote: »

Meanwhile , in Canada, the UK and Germany criticizing Islam online may get you a visit from the Cops to yout front door and jailtime. The reality is the exact opposite of what we should have . The fruits of the renaissance enlightenment are being attacked on all sides.

unfortuanately this is the case, its starting to change though more and more are waking up to the reality of things every day, with a bit of luck it seems like we've caught onto this problem just in time.

Widdershins · 09-04-2017 06:27PM

masculinist wrote: »

Iran should have been a beacon of democracy and stability in that region. It had a democratically elected government which was overthrown by western powers back in the 50s because it wanted to nationalize its oil companies and the subsequent ruler, the Shah had a reputation as worse than Hitler. Women marched against the veil when the Islamists took over later on. Islamism was probably the only way they could get rid of a tyrannical regime and instal it with another crappy one just slightly less crappy. So although the whole place is a mess, there must be some seed of a will towards democracy there among the young people.

Iranian women are still fighting the veil, and there is an online extension of the campaign, called My Stealthy Freedom. I am certain there is more than the seed of the will for democracy.

masculinist · 09-04-2017 07:01PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

People who call mixed race people " black " are racist as far as I'm concerned

Yes the 99% of the whole world who call Obama black despite his mother being white are disgusting racists.

CoolHandBandit · 09-04-2017 08:20PM

20Cent wrote: »

Too late for what?

To stop the Islamification of Europe.

Snake Plisken · 09-04-2017 08:45PM

Jesus Christ STOP pulling this thread off topic there are numerous threads on migrants Syria etc, is there no mods?
Please look at this poor girl Ebba 11 years old on the way home from school and targeted by this scumbag! It could have been your daughter or little sister! RIP poor child
https://twitter.com/chrisjunkfood/status/850821920417251328

ziggyman17 · 09-04-2017 08:49PM

too slack....too many do gooders......... time to fight fire with fire..... anybody with links to ISIS or their ilk should be rounded up along with all their family and deported back to were they came from, sick of all this bollox,

Danzy · 09-04-2017 08:54PM

Sad to see the Rotterdam Marathon photos today, road junctions blocked off with Garbage trucks, even last year it was just a few traffic cones.

There is a lot of nonsense that these things will not change society, culture etc.

They certainly will and already have, and it is only early days yet.

Music concerts being cancelled, a 12th C. origin flea market in France closed down, like I said, early days yet and changes are significant, what will it be like when he break the 100 attack mark or 5k dead and that will still only be early days.

09-04-2017 09:03PM

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Jesus Christ STOP pulling this thread off topic there are numerous threads on migrants Syria etc, is there no mods?
Please look at this poor girl Ebba 11 years old on the way home from school and targeted by this scumbag! It could have been your daughter or little sister! RIP poor child

+ 1000.

RIP. And RIP to every other poor soul - no matter what their race or religion, who was murdered by these nutjobs.

It's a sad, sad day, when the victims become incidental to the ideology. And, yet - that's what's happening. Which is shameful.

Danzy · 09-04-2017 09:09PM

ilkhanid wrote: »

Banning certain manifestations of a religion is workable. Other useful moves would be
1. Removing hate preachers. It took the British far, far too long to stop Anjem Choudary and deport Abu Hamza.
2. Take a close look at where Imams are originating. Help to set up some kind of seminary where contemporary values can be taught along with the Islamic stuff. No Imams allowed from the Gulf-among other places. Make sure they can all speak english and preach in it.
3. Crack down on hate publications. If they're found in the bookshop of a mosque than that shoud be grounds for closure or prosecution.
4.Take a close look at Third level educational institutions, where it seems that Salifi modes of Islam are overturning other kinds. Put a stop to invitations to Salafi preachers in universities and ensure a fair hearing for anti-salafi Muslims.
5. Find ways to stop radicalisation in prisons. Keep extremist inmates away from vulnerable young Muslims.
6. Stop entertaining trivial demands from "pious" Muslims who won't eat in the same room as pork, won't allow a dog near them,won't mix with the other gender at work. A total end to any talk of concessions on free speech. Unimportant stuff really, but it sets the tone and says "Enough of this nonsense!"
7.Do everything possible to empower Muslim women. Banning the Niqab should only be a first step.
8. No suspect asylum seeker without papers should be allowed in until his history is checked, no matter how long it takes.

Now these may be counsels of perfection and there may be legal obstacles to enabling some of these, but it's a start.

A hardly contentious list but if it was implemented in, say Britain or France, it would lead to a surge in attacks and rioting on the streets.

Depp · 09-04-2017 09:30PM

Danzy wrote: »

A hardly contentious list but if it was implemented in, say Britain or France, it would lead to a surge in attacks and rioting on the streets.

possibly could see that but if people are going to riot in support of islamism it'll only make it easier to spot the islamists and round them up. Plus the vast majority of moderate muslims would all be in favour of measures like this, islamists are doing as much harm to their community as any other!

Mountainsandh · 09-04-2017 09:56PM

Yeah there probably would be some rioting, but it would also probably be a bit cathartic.

There are probably a lot of Muslims out there unsure how to act, and fearful to act as described in the above post. A strict framework strictly enforced may be a way for them to finally have a voice, albeit very discreet.

Ulysses Gaze · 09-04-2017 10:11PM

ilkhanid wrote: »

Banning certain manifestations of a religion is workable. Other useful moves would be
1. Removing hate preachers. It took the British far, far too long to stop Anjem Choudary and deport Abu Hamza.
2. Take a close look at where Imams are originating. Help to set up some kind of seminary where contemporary values can be taught along with the Islamic stuff. No Imams allowed from the Gulf-among other places. Make sure they can all speak english and preach in it.
3. Crack down on hate publications. If they're found in the bookshop of a mosque than that shoud be grounds for closure or prosecution.
4.Take a close look at Third level educational institutions, where it seems that Salifi modes of Islam are overturning other kinds. Put a stop to invitations to Salafi preachers in universities and ensure a fair hearing for anti-salafi Muslims.
5. Find ways to stop radicalisation in prisons. Keep extremist inmates away from vulnerable young Muslims.
6. Stop entertaining trivial demands from "pious" Muslims who won't eat in the same room as pork, won't allow a dog near them,won't mix with the other gender at work. A total end to any talk of concessions on free speech. Unimportant stuff really, but it sets the tone and says "Enough of this nonsense!"
7.Do everything possible to empower Muslim women. Banning the Niqab should only be a first step.
8. No suspect asylum seeker without papers should be allowed in until his history is checked, no matter how long it takes.

Now these may be counsels of perfection and there may be legal obstacles to enabling some of these, but it's a start.

Nothing contentious in most of that list. I would remove 7 though. Freedom of choice would mean that women should get to choose if they want to wear a garment or not.

Just to add that in the current climate, in Britain for example, every far-left group such as Hope Not Hate and the UAF, every left wing publication such as The Guardian and Morning Star and certain members of the British Labour party would be up in arms over any and all of this list.

Widdershins · 09-04-2017 10:11PM

I remember an open borders proponent I know saying ''there might be a few nasty incidents but it will be worth in in the scheme of things''. I bit my tongue at the time. Now I think, even if there were riots if the above measures were implemented, what is a few riots compared to what happened in Stockholm and all of the other places visited by Islamism.

Danzy · 09-04-2017 10:15PM

Depp wrote: »

possibly could see that but if people are going to riot in support of islamism it'll only make it easier to spot the islamists and round them up. Plus the vast majority of moderate muslims would all be in favour of measures like this, islamists are doing as much harm to their community as any other!

The moderates will be for it but their is a very large % that are not moderate, not moderate if such views were held by irregardless of their faith etc.

The list above calls for Mosques that disseminate or espouse radical views, via teaching or material be closed down, for argument sake lets confine that to recommending violence or murder, that alone would do for a lot of England's most popular and known Mosques, Mosques that are household names even among those who have no interest in Islam.

That list is needed but the backlash would be intense.

Beyondgone · 09-04-2017 10:18PM

Danzy wrote: »

The moderates will be for it but their is a very large % that are not moderate, not moderate if such views were held by irregardless of their faith etc.

The list above calls for Mosques that disseminate or espouse radical views, via teaching or material be closed down, for argument sake lets confine that to recommending violence or murder, that alone would do for a lot of England's most popular and known Mosques, Mosques that are household names even among those who have no interest in Islam.

That list is needed but the backlash would be intense.

I'd hate to burst anyones bubble, but to even offer vocal criticism is to invite a severe backlash. So good luck with any actual "action". #notgonnahappenbuddy.

AlekSmart · 09-04-2017 10:19PM

ilkhanid wrote: »

Banning certain manifestations of a religion is workable. Other useful moves would be
1. Removing hate preachers. It took the British far, far too long to stop Anjem Choudary and deport Abu Hamza.
2. Take a close look at where Imams are originating. Help to set up some kind of seminary where contemporary values can be taught along with the Islamic stuff. No Imams allowed from the Gulf-among other places. Make sure they can all speak english and preach in it.
3. Crack down on hate publications. If they're found in the bookshop of a mosque than that shoud be grounds for closure or prosecution.
4.Take a close look at Third level educational institutions, where it seems that Salifi modes of Islam are overturning other kinds. Put a stop to invitations to Salafi preachers in universities and ensure a fair hearing for anti-salafi Muslims.
5. Find ways to stop radicalisation in prisons. Keep extremist inmates away from vulnerable young Muslims.
6. Stop entertaining trivial demands from "pious" Muslims who won't eat in the same room as pork, won't allow a dog near them,won't mix with the other gender at work. A total end to any talk of concessions on free speech. Unimportant stuff really, but it sets the tone and says "Enough of this nonsense!"
7.Do everything possible to empower Muslim women. Banning the Niqab should only be a first step.
8. No suspect asylum seeker without papers should be allowed in until his history is checked, no matter how long it takes.

Now these may be counsels of perfection and there may be legal obstacles to enabling some of these, but it's a start.

Counsels of Perfection ?.....far from it !

Counsel of Commonsense,would be more accurate surely ?

I would suggest beginning at item 8,which is currently the most contentious element under perilous discussion in other threads.

In the current situation,it smacks of Insanity to have a Government Minister,being given a guided tour of the remains of the Calais Jungle,then embarking on a crusade to "Scoop them all up,and bring them home".

Irelands Asylum & Refugee systems are set up,funded & staffed to process applications in the hundreds annually,not the 4,000 we are currently expected to take in (although,thankfully,we appear well behind at the moment).

Ireland has been successful,over the decades of accepting,and fully integrating refugees from many areas of conflict,a success which has been only made possible by the use of good reason & commonsense.

Now,consequent upon the German Chancellors misreading of a well planned,highly organized and focused mass migration,as some sort of Humanitarian Crisis to be solved only by the E.U,we are expected to abandon that commonsense & reason in favour of unquestioning acceptance of,and deference to, religious and social belief structures Totally at variance with our own.

We have a huge advantage in the lack of a Land Frontier,and we should continue to use that advantage to it's fullest.

Danzy · 09-04-2017 10:25PM

When I said that that list would incite riots, I meant a backlash from the Sunni community in countries that would implement such a moderate approach.

My extreme "Alt Right" call to action is that places that advocate the murder of Adulterers, Gays, Jews and women for countless things, be closed down. If they sell and promote books that advocate that, close them down.

As BeyondGone points out, that is a fairly hardline position to take these days and in parts of Europe or Britain it could lead to a Police Visit or a kicking from activists.

I think the backlash is going to be savage when it comes, a time will come when people have had enough of being silenced and they'll go too far but this is what happens when shutting down debate is encouraged.

Depp · 09-04-2017 10:28PM

Danzy wrote: »

The moderates will be for it but their is a very large % that are not moderate, not moderate if such views were held by irregardless of their faith etc.

The list above calls for Mosques that disseminate or espouse radical views, via teaching or material be closed down, for argument sake lets confine that to recommending violence or murder, that alone would do for a lot of England's most popular and known Mosques, Mosques that are household names even among those who have no interest in Islam.

That list is needed but the backlash would be intense.

Indeed theres a big percentage but it just needs to be that way and if the 30% or so dont like it they can totter off to saudi see what their generosity is like. Also re the mosques there wouldn't be that many shut, mosques up and down the uk and as far as I know in clonskeagh are casting out and shunning any islamists and wont allow them to preach their hate in or around the mosques, any that refuse to stop teaching islamism can go, they'll be no loss, and anyone who disagrees as ive said before, can head for the gulf, they'll find what they want there.

Depp · 09-04-2017 10:34PM

Danzy wrote: »

When I said that that list would incite riots, I meant a backlash from the Sunni community in countries that would implement such a moderate approach.

My extreme "Alt Right" call to action is that places that advocate the murder of Adulterers, Gays, Jews and women for countless things, be closed down. If they sell and promote books that advocate that, close them down.

As BeyondGone points out, that is a fairly hardline position to take these days and in parts of Europe or Britain it could lead to a Police Visit or a kicking from activists.

I think the backlash is going to be savage when it comes, a time will come when people have had enough of being silenced and they'll go too far but this is what happens when shutting down debate is encouraged.

My worry is that if people dont start waking up to it soon and allow people to talk about it moderate muslims who hate these scum as much as we do will get lumped in with them. Islamism is a disease that will only keep spreading untill people start admitting it exists and talking about it.

Danzy · 09-04-2017 10:43PM

Depp wrote: »

Indeed there is a big percentage but it just needs to be that way and if the 30% or so don't like it they can totter off to saudi see what their generosity is like. Also re the mosques there wouldn't be that many shut, mosques up and down the uk and as far as I know in clonskeagh are casting out and shunning any islamists and wont allow them to preach their hate in or around the mosques, any that refuse to stop teaching islamism can go, they'll be no loss, and anyone who disagrees as ive said before, can head for the gulf, they'll find what they want there.

I don't know what they exactly preach in Clonskeagh, it does not have a good reputation though and has many in its leadership that are strict and severe.There is more to suggest it has a radical problem than not.

Over half the Mosques in Britain are run by and along fundamentalist lines and that is growing all the time.

The views largely preached in mainstream Mosques would be a problem even if there were no Jihadis.

If they were preached in a Church or a Synagogue or temple etc then they would be national news in that country.

Fear makes people turn a blind eye.

09-04-2017 10:46PM

Widdershins wrote: »

I remember an open borders proponent I know saying ''there might be a few nasty incidents but it will be worth in in the scheme of things''. I bit my tongue at the time. Now I think, even if there were riots if the above measures were implemented, what is a few riots compared to what happened in Stockholm and all of the other places visited by Islamism.

That attitude is infuriating. Together with "statistically negligible" type statements.

Worth it to who?

Because it certainly isn't "worth it" or "statistically unimportant" to the victims or their families and friends - and I say that as someone who lives in a predominantly rural area - so, the statistical odds of my being directly affected by a terror attack are about as close to zero as you can get!:mad:

CoolHandBandit · 09-04-2017 10:46PM

Depp wrote: »

My worry is that if people dont start waking up to it soon and allow people to talk about it moderate muslims who hate these scum as much as we do will get lumped in with them. Islamism is a disease that will only keep spreading untill people start admitting it exists and talking about it.

Yes but Islamism has the media on it's side. You even question the motives and you are branded a wacist or similar.

Beyondgone · 09-04-2017 10:47PM

Depp wrote: »

My worry is that if people dont start waking up to it soon and allow people to talk about it moderate muslims who hate these scum as much as we do will get lumped in with them. Islamism is a disease that will only keep spreading untill people start admitting it exists and talking about it.

I know this is Ireland, and it's a brand new issue here, but it's well entrenched everywhere else. There are 2, just 2 groups of people you cannot criticise. 2.

Think about that. 2 places you cannot publicly go on pains of severe personal penalties, re: "Criticism". You can mutter on the internet(for now) but not in public.

Both are Old, old Religions.
As a non-religious person, that bothers me.

Depp · 09-04-2017 10:47PM

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

Yes but Islamism has the media on it's side. You even question the motives and you are branded a wacist or similar.

thankfully the media is becoming less relevent by the day!

Depp · 09-04-2017 10:50PM

Beyondgone wrote: »

I know this is Ireland, and it's a brand new issue here, but it's well entrenched everywhere else. There are 2, just 2 groups of people you cannot criticise. 2.

Think about that. 2 places you cannot publicly go on pains of severe personal penalties, re: "Criticism". You can mutter on the internet(for now) but not in public.

Both are Old, old Religions.
As a non-religious person, that bothers me.

whats the second?

I won't be kept quiet anyway my attitude is call me a racist if you wish I know that I'm not!

Know what you mean though as a religious person it scares me aswel!

CoolHandBandit · 09-04-2017 10:52PM

Danzy wrote: »

I don't know what they exactly preach in Clonskeagh, it does not have a good reputation though and has many in its leadership that are strict and severe.There is more to suggest it has a radical problem than not.

Over half the Mosques in Britain are run by and along fundamentalist lines and that is growing all the time.

The views largely preached in mainstream Mosques would be a problem even if there were no Jihadis.

If they were preached in a Church or a Synagogue or temple etc then they would be national news in that country.

Fear makes people turn a blind eye.

Go online and listen (or even visit) to some of the preaching from even a "moderate" mosque and it's an eye opener. They aren't interested in integration in the slightest and are steadfast on converting people to their belief system. The hatred from the preachers at the not so moderate mosques is off the scales. This needs to be discussed on the airwaves,TV, in public etc.. and let it be known it isn't acceptable in our society.

Beyondgone · 09-04-2017 10:53PM

Depp wrote: »

whats the second?
QUOTE]

The Jehovah's witnesses.

:rolleyes:

Depp · 09-04-2017 10:54PM

Beyondgone wrote: »

Depp wrote: »

whats the second?
QUOTE]

The Jehovah's witnesses.

:rolleyes:

Racist! :D:D

CoolHandBandit · 09-04-2017 10:55PM

Depp wrote: »

thankfully the media is becoming less relevent by the day!

Yes but it still has vast power and influence and the fightback against free speech and thought has already begun by censoring views and news on the internet by the establishment. The establishment has used the media to shape peoples opinions for years and they aren't going to give that up easily.

Truck driven into crowd in Stockholm - No Speculation

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