BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

Some of the arguments I've been hearing from BE people are f---g absurd, they really are.

They talk about a BUS COMPANY as if it's the same kind of vita public service as a general hospital or a university or a police force.  Sure, public transports critical.  Sure, there is, everywhere, even the US with AmTrack, a social function to it where the state has to keep places connected that don't have enough demand for a commercial service...but were not talking about the PSO company were talking about Expressway.  The vital social function is covered by a part of the company that is doing just fine, it's the commercial part of the company which is doing badly.  If you're worried about Expressway not going into small towns those specific routes should be PSO that's a different debate.

This is painfully simple.  Expressway is loosing money because it's uncompetative, its Xtravision competing with Netflix, a static, inflexible, overpriced, too expensive, dated monster that refuses to change with the market around it.

Why is Expressway loosing out to other operators?

• Other operators pay around 30k when at BE with OT and premium rates (some of which are p1ss takingly ridiculous like having your overtime be part of your sick pay calculation) drivers can earn 48k
• Revenue going up 11% over the boom years while pay went up 90%, then during the recession down again by less than 10%
• Excess number of staff
• Inefficiencies which built up as a direct result of it being a monopoly ran like a jobs club instead of being ran like a company
• ^ The above three not being the case in BE's competitors means they can offer lower fares

So, let's leave aside all the nonsense about are drivers skilled or unskilled and stop repeating the point about the social function when it's not the PSO part in trouble.  Lets look at this in a simple sequence of logic:
1. The unavoidable fact is Expressway is going broke and pulling down the rest of Bus Eireann.  This is an inescapable fact.
2. This is happening partly because of a badly designed licence system (which should be part of talks) but mostly because of the cost gap outlined above ^ and a union who's benchmark of whats reasonable is based on the 1970s economy when BE was a monopoly. 
3. The company WILL go bankrupt and have to be replaced with a more streamlined version for PSO and a license system for private operators if this cost gap is not closed.
4. We know from the math that tinkering with the free travel subsidy isn't enough to plug the hole, not enough by 1000 miles.
5. So the only thing that can be done is to bring wages down, but we don't even have to reduce core wages just overtime, which are far outside industry norms.  The problem being drivers, used to working in a monopoly with access to a blank state cheque, started to think of OT as core wage and treated it as such when making personal financial decisions.  Personally I think their own irresponsible fiscal choices should not be something the rest of us have to rescue them from.  The blunt fact is this OT has to come down or the company goes broke.  But they have a third alternative, cross subsidy where we jack up the PSO or play with what's called PSO.  As I've already said my problem with this is it diverts money from far more critical public services to prop up the overtime in a failing commercial company that does not have a vital social function (if some Expressway routes are considered vital they should be reassigned PSO but you can't make that claim with all of them).
I want you to imagine the workers at Xtravision going on strike and demanding.....
...at a time when people are crying out for drugs to be added to the medical card for extremely painful conditions like MS, CF, cancer etc...
...at a time when we have a bed capacity crises in health...
...at a time when third level education is facing a funding crises to the point where we'll have to introduce some kind of post graduation levy to continue free tuition up front...
...at a time when our security services are demanding extra resources warning us were not prepared for a terrorist attack...
...that these workers demanded the state subsidize them to rescue them from the "predatory" competition of Netflix, knowing full well Xtravision in it's current format will continue to hemorrhage money.
Now I know what you're thinking, absurd comparison right?  Public Transports a vital service maybe not as vital as healthcare but far more vital than entertainment.  Remember were not talking about the PSO services here, were talking about the expressly commercial services that a private operator could be licensed to do just as easily for far cheaper.  One commercial service is as good as another why should we bail out you and not any other commercial service?
I've heard suggestions of adding €50 to the FT pass for this...what a disgusting suggestion, to put a levy on the disabled and seniors to prop up overtime in a failing commercial company?

Why should the state prop you up and not any other commercial service? Someone will probably bring up the banks, and or that this would be a far cheaper bailout.  You're right it would.  But that's not the point, it would still divert money from the "big three" to prop up your overtime how the hell can you justify that??  The bank bailout isn't the same as bailing out BE or Xtravision however, the banking system is like the card at the bottom of the house of cards if it goes the entire economy goes, much as I was opposed to bailing them out and would like us to take measures to ensure we never have to do it again, there is no comparison here.  If Expressway was not there we could subsidize other operators to do the same job, both the NTA and the DSP and everyone's covered.

We can talk and talk and talk and talk in circles it comes down to this simple fact: You cost too much more than your competition and are going bankrupt, there are three soloutions:
1. Go bankrupt.
2. Reduce OT
3. State bailout.
Those three are the only options and no3 just isn't going to happen it's too politically toxic.  I get the sense some of the fellas pushing 70, quite willing to screw their younger colleagues, are ok with 1 since it gives them a huge redundancy package and a new PSO replacement will give them jobs anyway just at 32k instead of 48k
But those are our choices...the rest is white noise.
,

Wasn't mentioned on 6.1 news at all.

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

The game's probably well and truly up at this stage lads. Don't know how much longer BE can function given the huge financial losses they're taking.
Wouldn't be at all surprised if early this coming week we hear the examiners being called in.:rolleyes:

Several insolvency companies have been asked to submit tenders to act as examiners. But that's no guarantee that one will be selected.

Talks still ongoing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/talks-between-bus-%C3%A9ireann-and-unions-continue-1.3042391?mode=amp

According to some sources, a new system of consolidated pay - which would bring together core salaries and premium payments for staff - has been under consideration at the talks.

tayto lover wrote: »

Scaremongering??

Well Bus Eireann are of a size that of they went up to a practitioner and said we need to go to examinership tomorrow can you act for us the practitioner would double their normal rates. This allows lead in time.

By making them fight for possibly being accepted you drive down the prices that you would have to pay.

Shock and horror the insolvency industry has not gone on strike because of Bus Eireann trying to minimise costs.

end of the road wrote: »

so you admit then that you don't know that your claim is accurate and you are just guessing. fair enough, guessing is all we really can do at the moment until information comes out.

No I am explaining why the fact that I am 100% certain that insolvency practitioners have been asked to tender for the role of examiner to bus eireann doesn't mean that an examiner will necessarily be appointed.

It's a step before the appointment of an examiner but it's not a guarantee that only one will be appointed.

The solution is sorting expressway bus service and increasing Bus Eireann transport service with more Buses to counties outside Dublin and make them PSO routes instead of been a commercial operation.

There seams to be lot of confusion and lot public not knowing the difference between Bus Eireann Public Transport Service and Expressway Bus Service

Expressway Bus Service is not public transport service it's a commercial bus operation and is totally separate from Bus Eireann
Expressway Bus Service is the same as private bus service it's not funded by the tax payer and is only run to make a profit it's not subsidized in any way by the tax payer
Don't confuse Expressway with Bus Eireann main service the Public transport service to provide transport outside Dublin

CIE = Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann the Public transport service for the Rep of Ireland and is owned by the citizens of Ireland

The lack of understanding is annoying and seams to come from Dublin bus users not knowing the difference and private bus operators with their own agenda to try get the Public service routes that are profitable (You won't be getting these routes forget about it)

I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge as to what Bus Eireann Public transport service is
Bus Eireann public transport service PSO routes will not be privatized for that to happen Dublin Bus and Dart and Irish Rail would also have to be privatized and would require the permission of Irish citizens to change public transport service to a private transport service


Population of Ireland is 4.8 million
Dublin population is only 1.3 million
Outside Dublin the population is 3.5 million and Bus Eireann is the Public transport service for these 3.5 million but has serious lack of public transport to cover these 3.5 million population

Dublin has Dublin Bus and Dart and Luas and Irish Rail as public transport but has less population than outside Dublin has

Bus Eireann is the only public transport service in a lot of counties with no private bus service and also a lot of counties outside Dublin has no train service

What is needed is more Bus Eireann public service routes + the essential Expressway service routes changed to public transport and the non essential expressway routes given to private bus operators but they would unlikely consider looking for a licence to operate in

Dublin Bus gets more public funding than what Bus Eireann gets that's crazy with a bigger population outside Dublin getting less funding.

Public Transport is essential service it's the citizens of Ireland transport service and we fund it through taxes and use of the service with fares it's not meant to be making a profit it's a public service.

If the public transport service was privatized you would have a lot of towns have no bus service at all as private bus operators would not provide a bus service as a lot of the routes to them would not be profitable.

You don't even get off peak hours bus service on most of the routes private bus operators do at the moment they are only interested in peak hours to supply a bus service


I actually consider Bus Eireann Public transport service more essential than Dublin Bus Service


Dublin Bus users your only a small amount of the population of Ireland compared to the population outside Dublin

The wildcat strike on Friday 31st of March was a minor inconvenience compared to what the population outside Dublin have been experiencing the past 16 days it don't even close to the same struggle commuters outside Dublin have been having.


There is counties and Towns outside Dublin with huge population and has no train service at all yet some areas in Dublin and outside Dublin with less than 1/4 of the population have a train service

Example Navan Co Meath has no Train Service but is the biggest growing population town in Ireland

It's cost me in the past 15 days €480.00 in Taxis to get to and home from Work I have no private bus service to my work location as in nothing
Bus Eireann is my only Bus Service

Private Bus from Navan to Dublin only provides a few buses during peak hours and no bus from Dublin to Navan until 13.00 as in 1PM

Public transport service funded by the tax payers is extreme important as it to provide a bus service during both Peak hours and Off Peak Hours

Not everyone works 9-5 a lot work night shifts and during off peak hours so a Bus Service that provides bus transport during off peak hours is essential for the country

A private bus operator will not provide a bus service during off peak hours

Don't wish for our Public transport service be privatized you will have a service that will be of no use to a lot of the population and cause serious issues for a lot of people.

murphaph wrote: »

Yawn yawn yawn. Please get with the programme. Nobody here is advocating a free for all where busy routes are serviced by umpteen operators and unprofitable routes go unserviced.

What is commonly advocated is a tendering of all PSO routes so they still run but could be operated by any successful tenderer. Dead simple. Happens in many other countries with far better public transport than us.

If Bus Eireann is privatized then Dublin Bus must also be privatized
CIE = Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann

Privatized Bus Service has shown in other countries lot of towns left with no bus service or very reduced Bus Service as a private operator will not provide a bus at times it's not getting the bus close to full as in they won't cover off peak hours it's already happened in other countries.


Private Bus operators also should not get any of the Tax payers funds
Tax payers funds is only for public transport service it's not for some private company be subsidized

If a private Bus Service cannot provide a bus service every hour each day it's of no use to most of the population.

Government will not be changing Bus Eireann to Private Bus Service and have already made that clear it will not be privatized
If any new Bus service is created due to folding of Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus it will be a new Public Transport service still funded by the tax payer

Some routes not covered at the moment by Bus Eireann might be tendered out to private bus operators but they will not get any funding by the tax payers

The Union and Bus Eireann talks some areas have been sorted but there is still some hard decisions to be sorted and if needed will goto the Labour Court to decide upon

If the talks fail you will have Dublin Bus and Dart and Irish Rail become part of all out strike and also the School Bus Service also be part of the strike.

Public Transport Service is essential and anyone who don't understand this more than likely don't even use any bus service and drives a Car

paulboland wrote: »

The solution is sorting expressway bus service and increasing Bus Eireann transport service with more Buses to counties outside Dublin and make them PSO routes instead of been a commercial operation.

There seams to be lot of confusion and lot public not knowing the difference between Bus Eireann Public Transport Service and Expressway Bus Service

Expressway Bus Service is not public transport service it's a commercial bus operation and is totally separate from Bus Eireann
Expressway Bus Service is the same as private bus service it's not funded by the tax payer and is only run to make a profit it's not subsidized in any way by the tax payer
Don't confuse Expressway with Bus Eireann main service the Public transport service to provide transport outside Dublin

CIE = Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann the Public transport service for the Rep of Ireland and is owned by the citizens of Ireland

The lack of understanding is annoying and seams to come from Dublin bus users not knowing the difference and private bus operators with their own agenda to try get the Public service routes that are profitable (You won't be getting these routes forget about it)

I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge as to what Bus Eireann Public transport service is
Bus Eireann public transport service PSO routes will not be privatized for that to happen Dublin Bus and Dart and Irish Rail would also have to be privatized and would require the permission of Irish citizens to change public transport service to a private transport service


Population of Ireland is 4.8 million
Dublin population is only 1.3 million
Outside Dublin the population is 3.5 million and Bus Eireann is the Public transport service for these 3.5 million but has serious lack of public transport to cover these 3.5 million population

Dublin has Dublin Bus and Dart and Luas and Irish Rail as public transport but has less population than outside Dublin has

Bus Eireann is the only public transport service in a lot of counties with no private bus service and also a lot of counties outside Dublin has no train service

What is needed is more Bus Eireann public service routes + the essential Expressway service routes changed to public transport and the non essential expressway routes given to private bus operators but they would unlikely consider looking for a licence to operate in

Dublin Bus gets more public funding than what Bus Eireann gets that's crazy with a bigger population outside Dublin getting less funding.

Public Transport is essential service it's the citizens of Ireland transport service and we fund it through taxes and use of the service with fares it's not meant to be making a profit it's a public service.

If the public transport service was privatized you would have a lot of towns have no bus service at all as private bus operators would not provide a bus service as a lot of the routes to them would not be profitable.

You don't even get off peak hours bus service on most of the routes private bus operators do at the moment they are only interested in peak hours to supply a bus service


I actually consider Bus Eireann Public transport service more essential than Dublin Bus Service


Dublin Bus users your only a small amount of the population of Ireland compared to the population outside Dublin

The wildcat strike on Friday 31st of March was a minor inconvenience compared to what the population outside Dublin have been experiencing the past 16 days it don't even close to the same struggle commuters outside Dublin have been having.


There is counties and Towns outside Dublin with huge population and has no train service at all yet some areas in Dublin and outside Dublin with less than 1/4 of the population have a train service

Example Navan Co Meath has no Train Service but is the biggest growing population town in Ireland

It's cost me in the past 15 days €480.00 in Taxis to get to and home from Work I have no private bus service to my work location as in nothing
Bus Eireann is my only Bus Service

Private Bus from Navan to Dublin only provides a few buses during peak hours and no bus from Dublin to Navan until 13.00 as in 1PM

Public transport service funded by the tax payers is extreme important as it to provide a bus service during both Peak hours and Off Peak Hours

Not everyone works 9-5 a lot work night shifts and during off peak hours so a Bus Service that provides bus transport during off peak hours is essential for the country

A private bus operator will not provide a bus service during off peak hours

Don't wish for our Public transport service be privatized you will have a service that will be of no use to a lot of the population and cause serious issues for a lot of people.

So throw money at the problem.....

paulboland wrote: »

The solution is sorting expressway bus service and increasing Bus Eireann transport service with more Buses to counties outside Dublin and make them PSO routes instead of been a commercial operation.
.

Why not put all PSO routes out to tender? Pay operators to operate them regardless of farebox?

There is little scope for an unsubsidised operator to compete with the subsidised 109 Which BE have carpet bombed the route with.

I know someone who drives Navan to M3 Parkway station every day to commute to work in the city centre. I can put you in touch if you like.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Sorry ... but rubbish.

Public transport is any transport using a vehicle which the passenger doesn't own, and which accessible to (sometimes a subset of) the general public.

Sometimes public transport is subsidised. Sometimes it is not. Sometimes it operates on a shared vehicle basis to keep costs down (eg buses), sometimes not (eg taxis - exclusive use of a vehicle + driver for a higher fare).

And as a counter example, look at the town of Athenry. It is the only place in Co Galway to have a night-link bus service (which runs every Friday and Saturday, and also on bank holiday Sunday nights too). It used to receive a minimal service, run at odd times, provided by the state owned bus-company. Then a private operator emerged, offering more convenient times, better pickup and drop-off locations - and far more reasonable fares than the trains which also service the town - as well as the night-link buses. BE eventually packed up and stopped running their route and left. And the town has gone from having one of the daftest public-transport arrangements in the county to one of the best for a town its size.

I would say there are very few towns with absolutely no private transport operators: there's actually a small army of buses that go around the country every Friday and Sunday during the college term, taking students home and back again.

There is lots of towns with no private bus service at all
If there was lot of private bus service in operation then then why is it then lot of the public have had no bus transport in the past 16 days

I'm one of these public I had to use a Taxi to get to Work as there is no Private Bus service route to my location of Work it's only covered by Bus Eireann

It's cost me 480.00 Euro that past 15 days as in 80.00 Euro a day and there is lot more like me who had no other choice but use a Taxi

n97 mini wrote: »

Why not put all PSO routes out to tender? Pay operators to operate them regardless of farebox?

There is little scope for an unsubsidised operator to compete with the subsidised 109 Which BE have carpet bombed the route with.

I know someone who drives Navan to M3 Parkway station every day to commute to work in the city centre. I can put you in touch if you like.

I work in Ashbourne 19.00-7.00 I don't work in Dublin
With Bus Eireann Strike I have no other form of transport or possible use of a lift due to the hours I work

109A is my only public transport no private bus provides transport from Navan to Ashbourne and even if I got to Dublin I don't have a private Bus from Dublin to Navan until 13.00
Working 19.00-7.00 a Bus from Dublin to Navan at 13.00 is of no use to me

Thanks for option to get a lift but unless they can provide transport from 18.00 Navan to Ashbourne and a lift from 07.00 in the morning back to Navan it would be of no use

I do appreciate the offer and would use it if I worked in Dublin 9-5

paulboland wrote: »

There is lots of towns with no private bus service at all
If there was lot of private bus service in operation then then why is it then lot of the public have had no bus transport in the past 16 days

I'm one of these public I had to use a Taxi to get to Work as there is no Private Bus service route to my location of Work it's only covered by Bus Eireann

It's cost me 480.00 Euro that past 15 days as in 80.00 Euro a day and there is lot more like me who had no other choice but use a Taxi

Unlike Bus Eireann the other operators don't get a subsidy. Perhaps if the bus network was fairly tendered out (operators getting paid for non profitable routes like BE currently do) then one company couldn't bring the whole network to a standstill.

Taxis in Ireland are too expensive, and have successfully blocked proper implementation of alternatives like Uber. Maybe get on to your local TDs about that. In my own experience Uber is considerably more accessible. If you know other people also using taxis maybe you could share?