Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

faoiarvok · 05-04-2017 08:25PM

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

The Rescue 111 report further illustrates the enormity facing our SAR services and how far we've progressed. These brave men must never be forgotten. The dedication and their efforts on the night in question were truly moving.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure how to post the link. It's on the AAIU website and a very fine piece of work.

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/13091-REPORT_2000_011-0.PDF

gctest50 · 05-04-2017 08:56PM

Steve wrote: »

Interestingly and somewhat sadly ironic, the latest published report by the AAIU concerns an incident with SAR 117.

I'm posting this to try and give people an understanding of the level of detail and analysis that AAIU put in to their investigations. This report took 15 months to complete............

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202017-005_0.pdf

Any idea why

"The strop used by the operator does not incorporate [ a crotch strap] "

when USCG say :

Whenever hoisting using the quick-strop, failure to connect the crotch strap on an unconcious or incapacitated survivor may result in survivor slipping out of the quick-strop

page 23 of report :

Steve · 05-04-2017 09:02PM

gctest50 wrote: »

Any idea why
when USCG say :

I don't want debate on that incident, it's not appropriate for this thread. I was posting that merely to educate people who may be unfamiliar with what the AAIU do and how in depth they investigate.

chuckles30 · 05-04-2017 11:15PM

Coast Guard page on fb stating that the search has been extended to Galway to Donegal coastlines. They're hoping to resume underwater searches weather permitting and the Grainuaile on the way back to the scene.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1414685181908646&id=365726190137889

Gaoth Laidir · 05-04-2017 11:18PM

chuckles30 wrote: »

Coast Guard page on fb stating that the search has been extended to Galway to Donegal coastlines. They're hoping to resume underwater searches weather permitting and the Grainuaile on the way back to the scene.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1414685181908646&id=365726190137889

Search Blackrock shoreline, lads.

Esel · 05-04-2017 11:21PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Search Blackrock shoreline, lads.

Do you think they haven't? Seriously... :rolleyes:

HeidiHeidi · 05-04-2017 11:22PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Search Blackrock shoreline, lads.

A) Do you know that they haven't?

If they haven't, do you not think there might be a good reason (like the sea conditions, for example) that they haven't?

C) Do you seriously think that either they haven't thought of that, or that they thought of it and said ".....nah, we won't bother, sure they'd never be there"?

Steve · 05-04-2017 11:32PM

The post by Gaoth Laidir was unsucessfully ironic and not malicious.

Lets all play nice.

Gaoth Laidir · 05-04-2017 11:36PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

A) Do you know that they haven't?

If they haven't, do you not think there might be a good reason (like the sea conditions, for example) that they haven't?

C) Do you seriously think that either they haven't thought of that, or that they thought of it and said ".....nah, we won't bother, sure they'd never be there"?

a) I have not heard anything saying that they have been able to search it in detail (with divers). Plenty of detailed air, boat and public searches of shorelines further afield but nothing involving the divers on Blackrock itself.

b) Someone said earlier that they were hoping for a window on Thursday. So it would seem that conditions have been not conducive. The good few days they got were focused on the wreckage itself, 60 m offshore. There is a 400-m stretch of rocky shoreline on the island itself.

c) Stop being ridiculous.

Gaoth Laidir · 05-04-2017 11:38PM

Steve wrote: »

The post by Gaoth Laidir was unsucessfully ironic and not malicious.

Lets all play nice.

No it wasn't. It was being serious. I hope they get a chance to really go through it.

TomOnBoard · 05-04-2017 11:41PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

A) Do you know that they haven't?

If they haven't, do you not think there might be a good reason (like the sea conditions, for example) that they haven't?

C) Do you seriously think that either they haven't thought of that, or that they thought of it and said ".....nah, we won't bother, sure they'd never be there"?

I think the point is that, based on what has been said officially so far, below water searches by divers immediately out from the shoreline have not been possible as the swells, coupled with the extremely craggy terrain below water makes that too dangerous. Therefore it appears that what you characterise as B pertains.

Gaoth Laidir's point, with which I would agree, is that ways of searching this area, particularly from the Westerly shore through South to the East, by some means other than divers may be needed. That can knit well with ongoing searches above the shoreline by 'eyes-on', drones or whatever as well as the intended Granuaile deployment of the ROV from tomorrow morning. I not that the reports I've seen suggest that even Granuaile's efforts will be focussed on the area between Blackrock and Parrot rock, and not on the area Gaoth Laider is referring to, an area which would not be searchable by that large ROV anyway.

Gaoth Laidir · 05-04-2017 11:45PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I think the point is that, based on what has been said officially so far, below water searches by divers immediately out from the shoreline have not been possible as the swells, coupled with the extremely craggy terrain below water makes that too dangerous. Therefore it appears that what you characterise as B pertains.

Gaoth Laidir's point, with which I would agree, is that ways of searching this area, particularly from the Westerly shore through South to the East, by some means other than divers may be needed. That can knit well with ongoing searches above the shoreline by 'eyes-on', drones or whatever as well as the intended Granuaile deployment of the ROV from tomorrow morning. I not that the reports I've seen suggest that even Granuaile's efforts will be focussed on the area between Blackrock and Parrot rock, and not on the area Gaoth Laider is referring to, an area which would not be searchable by that large ROV anyway.

...and the area between where it may have impacted the rock and the ocean. A key area if the poor guys were thrown clear after the collision.

mickdw · 05-04-2017 11:47PM

It's not shoreline in any real sense. There is no shore, it is a cliff face for the most part. To search the rock itself would involve absailing down the face a various locations.
Before the days of choppers, boats could not even land at Blackrock. Light house keeper used to be winched off the boat for the first portion before accessing a path on the rock.
I have thought that it may be possible that a body could be trapped in a hidden crevice on the rock. Very difficult to search to be fair although bird activity would be a tell tale so it's highly unlikely.

Coil Kilcrea · 05-04-2017 11:47PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

No it wasn't. It was being serious. I hope they get a chance to really go through it.

Me too. Good conditions will hopefully allow a much better search. I'm sure there's unfinished business there. Sadly, there's also the possibility that both tide and current have made the search more widespread and difficult.

They're efforts have been Herculean, let's hope for some good luck.

Gaoth Laidir · 05-04-2017 11:51PM

mickdw wrote: »

It's not shoreline in any real sense. There is no shore, it is a cliff face for the most part. To search the rock itself would involve absailing down the face a various locations.
Before the days of choppers, boats could not even land at Blackrock. Light house keeper used to be winched off the boat for the first portion before accessing a path on the rock.
I have thought that it may be possible that a body could be trapped in a hidden crevice on the rock. Very difficult to search to be fair although bird activity would be a tell tale so it's highly unlikely.

TomOnBoard · 05-04-2017 11:56PM

mickdw wrote: »

It's not shoreline in any real sense. There is no shore, it is a cliff face for the most part. To search the rock itself would involve absailing down the face a various locations.
Before the days of choppers, boats could not even land at Blackrock. Light house keeper used to be winched off the boat for the first portion before accessing a path on the rock.
I have thought that it may be possible that a body could be trapped in a hidden crevice on the rock. Very difficult to search to be fair although bird activity would be a tell tale so it's highly unlikely.

I used the term shoreline loosely to describe the area at/above water. I fully agree that there are no gently sloping sandy beaches out there.

Above water searching may require drone searching, coupled where possible and safe by the abseiling search you mention.

Storm 10 · 05-04-2017 11:57PM

Here's hoping they are found

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-fleet-of-trawlers-to-search-for-missing-rescue-116-crewmen-as-wreckage-is-brought-ashore-784519.html

Irish Steve · 06-04-2017 12:56AM

I think it would be fair to say that the hope and expectation was that the 2 missing crew members would be found as a result of the lifting of a significant portion of R116. That was not the case, so the relevant people who are in control of this search have had to go back and review what has been done, and what they now need to do to try and find the missing crew.

The immediate area of Blackrock is a very hostile area to be working in, both for surface boats and divers, and for anyone to operate in that area without incurring more casualties, they will need some very settled and benign weather conditions, which has not been the case for much of the time since the crash.

I think we can take it as a given that the people in charge of the search will be reviewing all the areas that need to be revisited as a result of not finding the crew in the debris field at Blackrock, but it is also clear that there is still a significant amount of the S92 that has not yet been recovered, and we have to assume that lifting it will not be easy, if it were, they would have done it at the time they had all the equipment on site.

I really do hope that there will be some good news for all the families and friends that are living with uncertainty at the moment,

Esel · 06-04-2017 02:15AM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

A picture paints a thousand words, sometimes.

What are you trying to say?

Can you even imagine the undersea topography surrounding Blackrock?

Do you honestly think that the search has just ignored the area?

Gaoth Laidir · 06-04-2017 06:31AM

Esel wrote: »

A picture paints a thousand words, sometimes.

What are you trying to say?

Can you even imagine the undersea topography surrounding Blackrock?

Do you honestly think that the search has just ignored the area?

I was just posting a photo to illustrate mickdw's point.

I never once said that they ignored that area. Go back and point out where I did. I've explained my point. Try reading posts properly first before coming in with such replies.

Coil Kilcrea · 06-04-2017 07:01AM

Esel wrote: »

A picture paints a thousand words, sometimes.

What are you trying to say?

Can you even imagine the undersea topography surrounding Blackrock?

Do you honestly think that the search has just ignored the area?

A tad harsh. It's a valid point mindful of the extremities of the conditions and dangers for those involved. The rock and its surroundings have yielded the best results. It's highly possible it has more to offer. And of course the search efforts know that but they have been hampered by the weather. We can only hope for calm conditions to enable a thorough search.

Storm 10 · 06-04-2017 08:29AM

Granuaile left Galway at 1am this morning for Blackrock to continue search with the ROV

Rescue 117 carried out a transfer from Dublin to Heathrow during the night

Irish Steve · 06-04-2017 09:18AM

The sniping about if the rescue teams have, or have not searched Blackrock adequately has now been fully explored by a number of posters, and is now becoming tedious and is generating complaints.

Repetition is not going to make any difference to the response from the searchers.

We do not need any more discussion about how or why Blackrock needs to be searched, the people on the site are well able to make that determination on the basis of information that we do not have access to here. It is time to let that sub topic drop

kerry cow · 06-04-2017 09:24AM

These bodies have moved from black rock in my opinion and will be found on mainland shore line .The movement of current and tide will have moved them from black rock .

Reati · 06-04-2017 10:38AM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Above water searching may require drone searching, coupled where possible and safe by the abseiling search you mention.

Unfortunately, drones are not really built for that kind of SAR yet. There are many factors, speaking as a licensed drone operator, that would make then fairly useless out there.

Weather is the main one. Sea water and wind greater that 10m/s and the drone blows away never to be seen again. These things really don't like water. A small drizzle and you need to return to land.

But the big problem is battery life vs image quality.

Those drones that stay up 20mins to 30 mins have cameras that are basically flying smartphones mainly, the image returned to the tablet screen less useful.

Those with the better or specialist cameras can only stay up 10 to 12 minutes (from leaving the boat, searching the area and returning to the boat) and require multiple operators to fly it. So they then need to get close to blackrock for example to search the coastline there to get most flight time. I'm no sailor but others here have stated thats difficult.

As the newer drones I've seen built for SAR are 10 to 15k (up to 25k) a pop depending on gear and camera (though the ones I've seen used here are about 2 to 3k) I can't imagine they'd use them out there over a harsh place like blackrock when a helicopter could do a better job and for longer. Plus, with a pair of binoculars you'd like do a better job than the images you'd get back on a tablet screen.

BoatMad · 06-04-2017 10:54AM

I hope they find the crew. But I suspect it will be very difficult. It was obvious from early search patterns that they knew fairly early on that the two crew were not at the crash site,

While recovering the remains is undoubtably important. At some point a call will have to be made in relation to the continued use of special purpose equipment and personnel. . the potential search area is huge and we have no way of covering it quickly using technology.

I wish them the best of luck , but I would not be terribly hopeful. The sea will decide

Cianmcliam · 06-04-2017 11:01AM

Not sure I'd agree with the above re. drone searches. Even with the 12MP sensors on consumer drones you can program a flight path with 80% overlap photographs at around 40m above ground level and get a 3D model or a stitched orthophoto with an accuracy down to 3-4cm per pixel, much more resolution than needed to find a person or debris. I did a pass once at 120m up and can identify individual stones less than 10cm in size. You could do a flight path up to 25mph winds no problem, I've done it before.

BoatMad · 06-04-2017 11:16AM

Cianmcliam wrote: »

Not sure I'd agree with the above re. drone searches. Even with the 12MP sensors on consumer drones you can program a flight path with 80% overlap photographs at around 40m above ground level and get a 3D model or a stitched orthophoto with an accuracy down to 3-4cm per pixel, much more resolution than needed to find a person or debris. I did a pass once at 120m up and can identify individual stones less than 10cm in size. You could do a flight path up to 25mph winds no problem, I've done it before.

I'd be very suprised these bodies are on the surface at this time

Kalyke · 06-04-2017 11:17AM

Major civilian dive operation planned for Saturday.

BoatMad · 06-04-2017 11:17AM

Kalyke wrote: »

Major civilian dive operation planned for Saturday.

That's interesting have they identified where they will be diving

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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