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BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭Mulbert


    Stephen15 wrote:
    Breaking news: Talks at WRC to commenced Monday all Bus Eireann should operate normally tommorrow

    Jamie2k9 wrote:
    Chances are they tried it commercially and failed NTA didn't tender PSO for it.
    Myself and a lot of friends/family used to use it, now it takes half the day to go from gorey or enniscorthy to Waterford. NTA hasn't helped me in any way. BE are probably running loads of routes like this that don't pay but could be seen as public services.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭Mulbert


    Ted_YNWA wrote:
    They only started the Waterford route about 2 years ago. Dublin been going longer.



    Ok, didn't think they were doing it too long, especially not always long!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mulbert wrote: »
    BE are probably running loads of routes like this that don't pay but could be seen as public services.

    Hence the impending financial meltdown.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,781 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Hasn't reached midnight yet thought some might be foiled late on

    After midday doesn't count. Ever


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Entering day 9, any predictions on how or when this will end?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Graham wrote: »
    That would be one of the few potential upsides to this entire saga. They would most likely go out to competitive tender so its highly likely there would be worthwhile savings to the state.

    How competitive are these companies going to be. They will all compete for the big routes but at some stage the cost of extra drivers, buses, maintenance and other staffing will eventually restrict them from been competitive.

    Each of these companies will only have enough buses and drivers to operate current routes to date, it's not as if they have a full fleet of buses and drivers sitting around in reserve already. Will they all have the finances to expand.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    IE 222 wrote: »
    How competitive are these companies going to be. They will all compete for the big routes but at some stage the cost of extra drivers, buses, maintenance and other staffing will eventually restrict them from been competitive.

    Each of these companies will only have enough buses and drivers to operate current routes to date, it's not as if they have a full fleet of buses and drivers sitting around in reserve already. Will they all have the finances to expand.

    Thanks for asking,

    They'll probably start by using their drivers efficiently.

    Competition will continue if routes are periodically re-tendered.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    And in later years it became telecom eireann a semi state and worked quite well.
    And then it was privatised ....

    I'm sorry WHAT!! :eek:

    Telecom Eireann was an insane basket case. We were paying the highest line rental in the world for terrible service. We were paying per second for dial up internet and no sign of them bothering with broadband.

    They literally had offices full of old ladies who just sat their knitting! Why? Because they were the ladies who used to operate the switchboards before it was automated. Couldn't fire them because they were semi state employees, but refused to do any other job (E.g. phone support, etc.) as their job title was switch board operator!

    How do I know all this? Well the reason I'm on boards.ie is because I use to be a committee member of IrelandOffLine, the group who fought for broadband to be introduced in Ireland. I sat in meetings with the Minister of Communications, trying to convince him to force Eircom to introduce FRIACO. Which he did, giving us affordable internet and literally two months later broadband.

    Telecom Eireann was horribly inefficient and was doing everything in it's power to screw over the people of Ireland and hold the country back :mad:

    As for the privatisation of Eircom. I and almost everyone involved in IOFFL, was completely against it and warned that handing a private company a monopoly like that would be a disaster. Everything we predicted would happen, did :mad:

    What we had recommended was that Telecom Eireann should be split into two companies. A Network Company, who owned the entire network and had a small staff to manage it, which would stay under state ownership and an operations companies that would have everything else, including most of the staff and which could be privatised. The state owned network company could then allow any company who wanted it access to the network on an equal basis.

    All of the above would have avoided most of the problems with Eircom.

    We weren't listened too at the time, but it is interesting to note that this model was later taken up for future "privatisations", for instance how the ESB has been broken into a separate network company, generation company and retail company, etc.

    BTW Eir today is finally a much healthier company and is firing on all cylinders now. Ireland now has actually surpassed the UK in terms of quality of broadband in urban areas at least, we are in the top 20 countries in the world in terms of quality of broadband and now we are following the lead of the Scandinavians, rolling out 1GB/s Fibre To The Home in rural Ireland, which will help shot us way past most of Europe.

    Irelands telecoms industry is now doing extremely well. There is decent competition in the market and we the people are benefiting from it greatly.

    Here is the thing, I'm not in favour of monopolies. Monopolies are bad for the public, they tend to screw the public over. But monopolies don't have to be just private (like Eircom), they can and often are public too (BE). BE are a great example of a semi state monopoly which is damaging to the public and returns bad value for money.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Each of these companies will only have enough buses and drivers to operate current routes to date, it's not as if they have a full fleet of buses and drivers sitting around in reserve already. Will they all have the finances to expand.

    Well first of all the fleet of buses and coaches is sitting right there in BE's depots (which btw aren't pwned by BE, they are owned by CIE property group).

    Roughly half the fleet is owned by the NTA and of course could be taken back at any time and would be given to any new operator to use.

    The rest, either belong to CIE property group, in which case they also would remain in government ownership and could be transferred to the NTA or directly leased to the new operators by CIE. Or if they are owned by BE, then the liquidator will put them up for sale and either the NTA or other operators looking to take up these contracts will buy them for a song.

    Getting drivers will be a bit trickier, but possible too, after all there will now be 2000 ex-BE drivers looking for work. Worst case scenario you can train up a big batch of new drivers in a few months.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Graham wrote: »
    Thanks for asking,

    They'll probably start by using their drivers efficiently.

    Competition will continue if routes are periodically re-tendered.


    That will only allow for a slight increase in current services. Seems a bit short-sighted thinking efficiency will allow for mass expansion. Some of these companies will need to double or treble in size in order to meet the current public demand. That isn't going to happen over night and it won't be cheap either.

    Reopening of routes could take months in that case and some may never come back at all.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    IE 222 wrote: »
    That will only allow for a slight increase in current services. Seems a bit short-sighted thinking efficiency will allow for mass expansion. Some of these companies will need to double or treble in size in order to meet the current public demand. That isn't going to happen over night and it won't be cheap either.

    Reopening of routes could take months in that case and some may never come back at all.

    If it all goes splat I think it's safe to predict there will be a sudden availability of appropriate 2nd hand vehicles.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,576 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Graham wrote: »
    If it all goes splat I think it's safe to predict there will be a sudden availability of appropriate 2nd hand vehicles.


    there is a hell of a lot more to it then vehicles. just trying to think how long the NTA are now at the 10% route tendering program. to the best of my knowledge nothing has been awarded so far, so if we go on that god knows how long it would take to get everything back up and running should be go to the wall.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    bk wrote: »
    Well first of all the fleet of buses and coaches is sitting right there in BE's depots (which btw aren't pwned by BE, they are owned by CIE property group).

    Roughly half the fleet is owned by the NTA and of course could be taken back at any time and would be given to any new operator to use.

    The rest, either belong to CIE property group, in which case they also would remain in government ownership and could be transferred to the NTA or directly leased to the new operators by CIE. Or if they are owned by BE, then the liquidator will put them up for sale and either the NTA or other operators looking to take up these contracts will buy them for a song.

    Getting drivers will be a bit trickier, but possible too, after all there will now be 2000 ex-BE drivers looking for work. Worst case scenario you can train up a big batch of new drivers in a few months.

    I can't see BE drivers joining these companies to quickly. The shortage of drivers will only increase wages and perks.

    I don't think the transfer of buses will be as simple as you put it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Graham wrote: »
    If it all goes splat I think it's safe to predict there will be a sudden availability of appropriate 2nd hand vehicles.

    There will be plenty available but there is a bit more evolved than just buying or receiving a bus.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I can't see BE drivers joining these companies to quickly. The shortage of drivers will only increase wages and perks.

    I don't think the transfer of buses will be as simple as you put it.

    If things carry on as they are, the transfer could end-up as a straightforward auction or they'd go back to the NTA to re-allocate/rent/sell.

    Oddly enough, recruiting drivers only appears to be an issue for the semi-state operators.

    That's not to say it would be easy to transfer all services en-masse but even a skeleton service run by other operators during a formal tender process would be better than what has been delivered in the last couple of weeks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Graham wrote: »
    If things carry on as they are, the transfer could end-up as a straightforward auction or they'd go back to the NTA to re-allocate/rent/sell.

    Oddly enough, recruiting drivers only appears to be an issue for the semi-state operators.

    That's not to say it would be easy to transfer all services en-masse but even a skeleton service run by other operators during a formal tender process would be better than what has been delivered in the last couple of weeks.

    A mass auction which to be fair will probably interest big fleet management or UK operators than small Irish operators.

    PO will be seen as the new semi state in terms of drivers.

    Who is going to run and fund these skeleton services. Skeleton services will only strain other services.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    IE 222 wrote: »
    A mass auction which to be fair will probably interest big fleet management or UK operators than small Irish operators.

    PO will be seen as the new semi state in terms of drivers.

    Who is going to run and fund these skeleton services. Skeleton services will only strain other services.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the UK operators being attracted to the current BE routes. By extension I would expect them to take interest in vehicles.

    It probably makes more sense for the vehicles to transfer to the NTA to be offered to the new operators. Funding would mostly come from re-allocating funding previously going to BE.

    It would be messy, but it would be a short-term mess.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,781 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JCX BXC wrote: »
    Entering day 9, any predictions on how or when this will end?

    Liquidation of BE. Striking drivers effectively unemployable except in cases of severe shortages.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,049 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    there is a hell of a lot more to it then vehicles. just trying to think how long the NTA are now at the 10% route tendering program. to the best of my knowledge nothing has been awarded so far, so if we go on that god knows how long it would take to get everything back up and running should be go to the wall.
    I suspect a new semi state would be quickly established to take care of the PSO routes. The BE drivers would be offered jobs in this company. Expressway routes would not return. Private operators would take up the expressway slack.

    The NTA would then begin aggressively tendering out the PSO routes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,049 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I can't see BE drivers joining these companies to quickly. The shortage of drivers will only increase wages and perks.

    I don't think the transfer of buses will be as simple as you put it.
    When you have a mortgage to pay and you are unemployed you think you'll be thinking about not taking a job to increase the salary you might get if they hire you after all? They'll just take drivers from somewhere else in the EU. We're not leaving the single market.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,049 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    L1011 wrote: »
    Liquidation of BE. Striking drivers effectively unemployable except in cases of severe shortages.
    And the hardliners will be well known in the industry. They will be unemployable regardless.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,645 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    murphaph wrote: »
    I suspect a new semi state would be quickly established to take care of the PSO routes. The BE drivers would be offered jobs in this company..

    and if that happens, nothing will change. The mentality ingrained in BE staff over the decades can't be gotten rid of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,049 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    and if that happens, nothing will change. The mentality ingrained in BE staff over the decades can't be gotten rid of.
    Agree wholeheartedly. I'm just imagining what the likely outcome of a BE collapse would be. Any interim semi state would need to be dismantled asap through steady tendering of all PSO routes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,581 ✭✭✭JTMan


    The Sunday Business Post reports that examinership plans for BE are now at an "advanced stage".


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Anymore you can say since it's behind a paywall?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,213 ✭✭✭trellheim


    I can't see BE drivers joining these companies to quickly. The shortage of drivers will only increase wages and perks.

    I don't think the transfer of buses will be as simple as you put it.



    I think you are not assuming how pragmatic this can be

    1) examinership -> can this be a going concern ?

    Accountant to Judge -> Union won't wear any changes or take a payrise

    Boom. NTA repossess their assets, firesale of buses, NTA advertise PSO routes , one or many operators win or are paid to operate PSO , and we are up and running


    As for staff
    People have bills to pay ; short term you can advertise in the wider EU for short term well paid contract drivers until the new lot are recruited ;

    Clerys was let go - what makes you think the buses would be any different ; as long as people get their bus services


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,723 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    And I doubt BE drivers will be taking the prospect of having no wage so easily in that circumstance.


  • Posts: 5,334 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I see on the news today that the People Before Profit party came out in support of the wildcat strike by BE. I hope they knock on my door next election time!
    Also see on twitter that Rubber Bandits supporting the wildcat strike. Whatever about supporting BE strikers at their place of work, no one should be supporting illegal picketing.
    I think the government should step in and liquidate this non viable company. It's only non viable because of its management and employees.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,108 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    JTMan wrote: »
    The Sunday Business Post reports that examinership plans for BE are now at an "advanced stage".

    What does that mean for the unions?


This discussion has been closed.
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