BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

snickerpuss · 31-03-2017 01:42PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No.

Surely if they went back to work at 10 they can't be docked a full day?

seamus · 31-03-2017 01:44PM

ixoy wrote: »

I'd love an AMA with a striking worker, assuming they answered honesty.

Today FM - listen back to Matt Cooper of Tuesday 28th March. The news segment at around 1:39 includes an interview with a picketer, "Dennis Rudd" (the radio station broadcast his name). He said;

"This is for the long haul. If this place has to go to the wall, so be it. But we won't become 'yellow pack' workers. We won't become cheap labour. For a semi-state company? It's not gonna happen."

I think that pretty much answers anything you could ask in an AMA. The workers believe that there's a government chequebook here to abuse, so they're willing to bring down Bus Eireann rather than put the interests of the company before their own.

I don't think they realise that if BE goes to the wall there's no way they'll ever land a driving job that's nearly as good again.

Maybe they're thinking; "Force insolvency == redundancy. Lovely jubbly".

elastico · 31-03-2017 01:47PM

seamus wrote: »

Today FM - listen back to Matt Cooper of Tuesday 28th March. The news segment included an interview with a picketer, "Dennis Rudd" (the radio station broadcast his name). He said;

"This is for the long haul. If this place has to go to the wall, so be it. But we won't become 'yellow pack' workers. We won't become cheap labour. For a semi-state company? It's not gonna happen."

I think that pretty much answers anything you could ask in an AMA. The workers believe that there's a government chequebook here to abuse, so they're willing to bring down Bus Eireann rather than put the interests of the company before their own.

I don't think they realise that if BE goes to the wall there's no way they'll ever land a driving job that's nearly as good again.

Maybe they're thinking; "Force insolvency == redundancy. Lovely jubbly".

May as well collapse bus eireann at this stage. Minimum statutory redundancy.

Privatise routes with direct subventions.

Cie used run the ferry to Aran islands. Today it's a private operator getting a subventions.

Ultimately for the same money we would have a vastly superior bus service.

Nekarsulm · 31-03-2017 01:56PM

elastico wrote: »

May as well collapse bus eireann at this stage. Minimum statutory redundancy.

Privatise routes with direct subventions.

Cie used run the ferry to Aran islands. Today it's a private operator getting a subventions.

Ultimately for the same money we would have a vastly superior bus service.

CIE used to move everything on the roads.
Private owners having lorries/trucks were banned.
Then after liberalisation, only Guinness really used CIE trucks.

Look at how many trucks are one our roads every minute of the day now.
This bus strike is simply the latest stage of a long and painful death.

end of the road · 31-03-2017 02:00PM

elastico wrote: »

May as well collapse bus eireann at this stage. Minimum statutory redundancy.

Privatise routes with direct subventions.

Cie used run the ferry to Aran islands. Today it's a private operator getting a subventions.

Ultimately for the same money we would have a vastly superior bus service.

there is no proof for that as a bus service is really only a bus service. the only type of transport that has the potential to offer a high quality experience is rail, or even air depending on the company and routes.

n97 mini · 31-03-2017 02:09PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is no proof for that as a bus service is really only a bus service. the only type of transport that has the potential to offer a high quality experience is rail, or even air depending on the company and routes.

You're conflating buses with bus service. Buses are not going to improve but the service might. More frequent, later running etc.

end of the road · 31-03-2017 02:17PM

n97 mini wrote: »

You're conflating buses with bus service. Buses are not going to improve but the service might. More frequent, later running etc.

that has to be paid for. nothing stopping all that from happening but government/NTA didn't want to pay for it. we could have had night busses in dublin years ago if the will was there. bus eireann have some night services also.

XPS_Zero · 31-03-2017 02:18PM

seamus wrote: »

Today FM - listen back to Matt Cooper of Tuesday 28th March. The news segment at around 1:39 includes an interview with a picketer, "Dennis Rudd" (the radio station broadcast his name). He said;

"This is for the long haul. If this place has to go to the wall, so be it. But we won't become 'yellow pack' workers. We won't become cheap labour. For a semi-state company? It's not gonna happen."

I think that pretty much answers anything you could ask in an AMA. The workers believe that there's a government chequebook here to abuse, so they're willing to bring down Bus Eireann rather than put the interests of the company before their own.

I don't think they realise that if BE goes to the wall there's no way they'll ever land a driving job that's nearly as good again.

Maybe they're thinking; "Force insolvency == redundancy. Lovely jubbly".

No they're thinking the state will give in Because regardless of parties that's always happened but everyone but possibly SF has learned the lesson that runaway PS pay left us overexposed last time there was a global crash and there will be one again at some stage so why make the same mistakes?

Yellow pack to them is 40k a year job that's 1000% recession proof nearly impossible to be fired from, with average 150-200 a week OT (according to them) OT so regular you can count it as core pay...their company is going bankrupt and they're asked for minor changes in JUST the OT portion.....

...yellow pack

Years ago someone who worked with Seamus Brennan told me the public sector in Ireland live in a different universe

I thought he was making mountains out of Noe hills but they really do live in another reality

AlmightyCushion · 31-03-2017 02:21PM

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Yellow pack to them is 40k a year job that's 1000% recession proof nearly impossible to be fired from, with average 150-200 a week OT (according to them) OT so regular you can count it as core pay...their company is going bankrupt and they're asked for minor changes in JUST the OT portion.....

...yellow pack

Years ago someone who worked with Seamus Brennan told me the public sector in Ireland live in a different universe

I thought he was making mountains out of Noe hills but they really do live in another reality

You're forgetting the whole, spends just over half their work day doing actual work as well.

XPS_Zero · 31-03-2017 02:27PM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

You're forgetting the whole, spends just over half their work day doing actual work as well.

I think everyone should be unionised I believe strongly in workers rights

But I also believe in math, logic etc if your companies going broke you can help fix it or watch it sink.

It's just unacceptable to me to divert money from health education and social welfare to pay excessive overtime of bus drivers I mean ffsake so much is underfunded we learned the other week after 116 crash that the Defense Forced have half what they need to respond to a terrorist attack, people are crying out for funding for new drugs, new hospital bed capacity ...and they want us to use scarce resources to prop up their f----g overtime!!!

They shot themsellves in the foot with this they think they're clever because of if you hit Dublin they'll give in but now all you did was add the annoyed rural and regional passengers calling their TDs saying don't give in to Dublin Ines doing it

We need to wind BE up, licence commercial routes and tender PSO ones with subsidies and FT grants like we do for likes of Swords Express

This can never be allowed to happen again a signal has to be sent

bk · 31-03-2017 02:33PM

n97 mini wrote: »

You're conflating buses with bus service. Buses are not going to improve but the service might. More frequent, later running etc.

Buses can certainly improve too. Toilets on intercity coaches is definitely an improvement. Wifi and power can help make the time pass faster.

Better build quality, materials and insulation can help the interior be quieter and help reduce vibrations from the road and engine, making it a smoother ride.

Better quality seats, more padding, more leg room, more recline can all ake a difference too.

I actually find Aircoach to Cork and Citylink to Galway to be more comfortable then the train.

The one advantage the train has is that you can get up more and walk around.

But a good quality coach has many advantages. I find them to be much smoother ride, quieter, no stupid loud announcements constantly annoying you, they are too bright with full on lighting, verus the coach using melow lighting. I also find the coaches seats to be more comfortable and they recline, which IR seats don't. Basically I can sleep on the coach, I could never sleep on an IR train. Too loud, bright and noisy.

In terms of city buses you can make improvements there too in terms of carrying more passengers (tri-axle and bendy buses) and getting them on and off faster (mutli-door and multi-stair buses and flat fare ticketing).

Of course you are also correct n97 mini that a bus service can also be improved with things like longer operation hours, shorter journey times, higher frequency, etc.

MOH · 31-03-2017 02:52PM

pilly wrote: »

So what did they get then? Nothing. Ross is standing tough and the public agree with him.

Surely that's not what the drivers wanted?

I don't think it's what the majority of drivers would have wanted.

I think it's exactly what the guys picketing this morning wanted. I also don't think it was a very well thought through plan.

Step 1: Disrupt all transport services Friday morning
Step 2: ???????
Step 3: Profit!

(I think I'll call them the underhand gnomes from now on)

Quackster · 31-03-2017 02:58PM

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I think everyone should be unionised I believe strongly in workers rights.

Unfortunately successive governments have been too spineless to introduce mandatory union recognition.

This and some other measures need to be introduced to kill off any possibility of private operators getting away with mistreating their workers and thus kill off one of the main arguments for keeping BÉ on life-support.

ED E · 31-03-2017 03:00PM

Excuse me for not reading back over the 90 pages but did we ever get a hard figure on staffing per bus? First the papers were saying 5/bus then BE came back with 2.2 IIRC. Whats the real number?

trellheim · 31-03-2017 03:00PM

Why havent NBRU and SIPTU been on the radio recommending members pass unauthorised pickets ?

bk · 31-03-2017 03:02PM

Well the latest from the to guys in government doesn't look good for the unions:

Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said both sides in the ongoing Bus Éireann dispute need to go back to the Workplace Relations Commission to resolve their issues and end the widespread disruption for commuters.

Mr Kenny also said it was not for Minister for Transport Shane Ross to get involved.

It comes as Mr Ross said today's wildcat action by bus workers makes him more determined than ever not to intervene in the dispute.

Minister for Social Protection Leo Varadkar echoed the view that Mr Ross is right not to intervene in the dispute, saying it would set a precedent where "every dispute will be escalated to the minister."

Speaking on RTÉ's News at One, Mr Varadkar also said Bus Éireann is an important company but is not essential as most of what it does can be replaced by private companies.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0331/864017-bus-eireann-dispute/

Basically there seems to be little interest from the government to get involved. They have the publics support and aren't under any pressure to bend to the unions demands.

ED E · 31-03-2017 03:03PM

trellheim wrote: »

Why havent NBRU and SIPTU been on the radio recommending members pass unauthorised pickets ?

Because they organized it, the dog on the street knows that.

MKH · 31-03-2017 03:04PM

It's pretty obvious the drivers' only successful outcome here is the government just throwing a ton of cash at BE. That cash would last a few years and then rinse and repeat. That's the gambit here.

If BE goes under and the drivers are made redundant, the high % of them that seem to be near retirement age would probably be okay with some sort of early retirement deal. The younger ones would find it difficult to find any jobs paying even 2/3 of what they make now. People who think accepting 40k as a low skill worker would make them 'cheap labour' obviously have such a distorted view of the job market, they'd be in for a big surprise.

XPS_Zero · 31-03-2017 03:05PM

Quackster wrote: »

Unfortunately successive governments have been too spineless to introduce mandatory union recognition.

This and some other measures need to be introduced to kill off any possibility of private operators getting away with mistreating their workers and thus kill off one of the main arguments for keeping BÉ on life-support.

i agree

But every time train drivers strike over introduction of new trains
Every time bus drivers strike over reducing OT to save their dying company
Every time SIPTU strikes to keep some ridiculous dated allowance

...it puts one more nail in the mere existence of unions in the next generation because to non union workers it comes off as a club for only people who are intransigent and unreasonable who refuse to recognise reality and think they're being abused when they're actually on very good conditions

PS unions actions are also damaging those of us in unions in other sectors who are capable of recognising our employer doesn't have unlimited funds

Quackster · 31-03-2017 03:07PM

bk wrote: »

Buses can certainly improve too. Toilets on intercity coaches is definitely an improvement. Wifi and power can help make the time pass faster.

Better build quality, materials and insulation can help the interior be quieter and help reduce vibrations from the road and engine, making it a smoother ride.

Better quality seats, more padding, more leg room, more recline can all ake a difference too.

I actually find Aircoach to Cork and Citylink to Galway to be more comfortable then the train.

The one advantage the train has is that you can get up more and walk around.

But a good quality coach has many advantages. I find them to be much smoother ride, quieter, no stupid loud announcements constantly annoying you, they are too bright with full on lighting, verus the coach using melow lighting. I also find the coaches seats to be more comfortable and they recline, which IR seats don't. Basically I can sleep on the coach, I could never sleep on an IR train. Too loud, bright and noisy.

At night when it's dark and I just want to snooze, I'd agree with you. But during the day, especially when I want to work, the train wins hands down.

Plus the ability to consume food/drink on board makes for a more relaxing and productive journey too!

AlmightyCushion · 31-03-2017 03:15PM

Quackster wrote: »

At night when it's dark and I just want to snooze, I'd agree with you. But during the day, especially when I want to work, the train wins hands down.

Plus the ability to consume food/drink on board makes for a more relaxing and productive journey too!

I never had a problem bringing food on a bus. As long as you're not bringing on greasy burgers and chicken wings drowning in sauce you'd be grand.

XPS_Zero · 31-03-2017 03:18PM

bk wrote: »

Well the latest from the to guys in government doesn't look good for the unions:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0331/864017-bus-eireann-dispute/

Basically there seems to be little interest from the government to get involved. They have the publics support and aren't under any pressure to bend to the unions demands.

Many people I respect say to me "not saying he should throw money at them but he has to get involved "

To me this isn't as absurd as the education minister saying a teachers strikes nothing to do with her it's between the unions and boards but BE is a company the state may be the ultimate employer but it has its own management and revenue generating capacity...it's a business whereas most of the money for schools (fee paying schools included ) comes from the state so it's a different thing

My question for those saying he should get involved is what could he bring OTHER than cash? and I doubt even if he personally said ok the rest of the govt would be ok taking funds from their stretched departments to give it to him

Here's how it will go:

Ross: hi, you're going broke just make a small sacrifice and you'll still have above average pay jobs you can't be fired from

Union guy: yellow pack jobs race te de bottom privatisation agenda...increase the subsidy

Ross: it's illegal to subsidise a commercial route it's unfair competition

Union guy: ah but we've a clever way around that designate commercial routes PSO or hike the PSO grant and we can sorta cross subsidise BE overall and keep it afloat

Ross: so who do I get that money from? Health? Education? Welfare? Defense?

Union guy: stick a charge on de old travel pass

Ross: have grannies and disabled and seriously ill find your overtime I'm sure that will be politically popular...no

Union guy: you give us no choice but to escalate

What else can he say if he goes in? Charm them? Take it out of his own wages and managements as I heard one suggestion...some drivers don't seem to know you can't get millions out of a few 100k...there's nothing he can really do I acythink he's been a terrible minister up to now but I'm on his side here

bk · 31-03-2017 03:19PM

I have a great deal of respect for what the unions of the early 1900's did for the ordinary worker and our nation.

They fought hard for a decent wage for a hard days work and improved conditions and safety standards. They also fought hard for the birth of our country and worked hard to build it to what it is today.

However I think those famous labour leaders would be horrified at what the modern union movement has become today.

Union bosses earning 100k+, representing mostly very well paid and on very good conditions mostly semi-state employees, while the common man on the street gets little or no representation and worst of all holding the whole country to ransom for their unjust demands!

And on top of that the way they have been insulting and threatening our democratically elected representatives in government!

It is all pretty sickening and I believe the unions leaders of the past would be simply appalled at it all and would say that it has nothing to do with the proud labour and union movements of the past.

Quackster · 31-03-2017 03:24PM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I never had a problem bringing food on a bus. As long as you're not bringing on greasy burgers and chicken wings drowning in sauce you'd be grand.

True, but there's nothing I like better than cracking open a bottle (or three) of craft beer if I'm on the train of an evening. Makes the four hours from Tralee to Dublin (or visa versa) pass much more pleasantly!

It's great having the Dublin Coach service now so can't be held to ransom by the CIE workers any more but overall it just doesn't offer the same levels of comfort as the train. And it's 30 minutes longer too. Four and a half hours is a long time to be confined to a bus I find.

That said, if I'm travelling Dublin/Cork, I'd often go with AirCoach as it's absolutely fine for the length of the journey.

AlmightyCushion · 31-03-2017 03:27PM

Quackster wrote: »

True, but there's nothing I like better than cracking open a bottle (or three) of craft beer if I'm on the train of an evening. Makes the four hours from Tralee to Dublin (or visa versa) pass much more pleasantly!

I won't argue with you there.

bk · 31-03-2017 03:30PM

Quackster wrote: »

It's great having the Dublin Coach service now so can't be held to ransom by the CIE workers any more but overall it just doesn't offer the same levels of comfort as the train. And it's 30 minutes longer too. Four and a half hours is a long time to be confined to a bus I find.

That is fair enough, 4 hours is a bit long and a train would be more comfortable for that length of time.

However for 3 hours or less, as most of the intercity routes are, I think coaches are perfectly comfortable. I just work on the Aircoach/GoBE to Cork now with the free wifi and power and frankly you don't even notice the time fly by. I don't think the train is worth double the cost on these shorter journeys and certainly not 3 to 4 times the cost!

jimmycrackcorm · 31-03-2017 03:38PM

Quackster wrote:

Unfortunately successive governments have been too spineless to introduce mandatory union recognition.

Perhaps because all they see are unions who will blackmail the public.

The cat majority of private companies don't require unions, in particular, our labour laws are very favourable to workers.

MKH · 31-03-2017 03:41PM

We talk a lot about the inter-city services here as well as the rural routes, but you've also got to consider the urban and suburban bus services in Cork. There is no private competition for BE in that sphere at the moment and these services no doubt are a significant part of BE's business.

Given the high number of commuters in Cork and the major businesses with a presence in the city, those services should be able to financially stand on their own. It seems very obvious to me that the solution should be a competitive bidding process for these contracts. That's on the political side of things - it's not an ironclad rule that public transport in Cork needs to be provided by BE.

In general, I think the government(s) should get involved not to sort out the BE dispute but to re-organize public transport in Ireland in a financially sustainable way, moving beyond the 'taxpayer money grows on trees' model relied upon by the public sector unions.

devnull · 31-03-2017 03:49PM

Bus Eireann Statement

http://buseireann.ie/news.php?id=2277&month=Mar

Bus Éireann regrets the ongoing disruption to the travelling public caused by the unions’ strike action.

Escalation of this action in an illegal manner will not resolve the matter, and as a company, we can only engage on the basis of good faith.

Trust must be restored in order for dialogue between both parties to resume.

The company remain available for time-limited talks on efficiencies and changes to work practices.

It is critical - for both the solvency of the business and to secure a viable future - that these changes are implemented.

Management and the board want to see a resolution, but are responsible for ensuring that the business can survive.

bk · 31-03-2017 03:49PM

MKH wrote: »

We talk a lot about the inter-city services here as well as the rural routes, but you've also got to consider the urban and suburban bus services in Cork. There is no private competition for BE in that sphere at the moment and these services no doubt are a significant part of BE's business.

There is no private competition in Cork on these routes simply because it isn't allowed.

Though it should be noted that a private company, City Direct those operate some of the city routes in Galway. So as you say there is no rule against it.

In fact most city bus services around Europe are operated by private companies under the direction and control (and yes subsidy) from city councils or national regulators. London Bus is the perfect example, but also pretty much true all over Europe. The idea of needing semi-state employees to be driving buses is a little archaic and somewhat unique to Ireland.

To be honest it is pretty archaic as having semi-state employees driving freight trucks or operating hotels or flying planes, all things they did in the past in Ireland! In retrospect they are all pretty weird and when you stop and think about it semi-state employees driving buses is also equally weird IMO.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

Comments