BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

L1011 · 30-03-2017 03:38PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Can licenses be bought would they not just be re-tendered?

They aren't PSO licences so there is no tendering process as such.

devnull · 30-03-2017 03:45PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Can licenses be bought would they not just be re-tendered?

I'm not sure how exactly things are carried out but there have been occasions in the past where operators have had licenses transferred from another company to themselves and I assume they were bought since they had same license number and everything.

Commercial services are just applied for, two operators per type per corridor first come first served on the basis that the timetable is not predatory and is sufficiently time separated from other licensed services of the same type on the same corridor.

bk · 30-03-2017 04:05PM

sjb25 wrote: »

Private bus operators reading this

Haha I know, but I said that just to include it as a possibility, as unlikely as it is.

And doesn't that say a lot about BE. When Aer Lingus was being privatised, despite all it's issues, there was still lots of interest in it. BE on the other hand looks like such a basket case that I find it hard to imagine any company being interested in it.

L1011 wrote: »

They aren't PSO licences so there is no tendering process as such.

Yeah, we would certainly be into uncharted territory.

I don't think the NTA has ever really tendered or issued licenses for PSO routes as such in the past. Instead they simply inherited BE and DB and all their PSO routes and sort of just continued giving them a direct subsidy, rather then really formalising the route licenses or evaluating if they should continue being PSO routes, etc.

Before the NTA, CIE was pretty much a law unto itself. BE got to see all incoming requests for new routes and could opt to roll out services on the route ahead of the private company (or DB) to block them. This allowed BE to cherry pick the best routes, leaving the privates with the scraps of only the most rural routes, like the ones operated by 4 private companies in the most rural of West Donegal.

There was little or no transparency in route licensing. Once the NTA took over, that changed at least for the commercial routes, which lead to the likes of Aircoach, Dublin coach, etc. entering the market. However I don't think the same changes were made to the PSO routes.

So if BE's PSO routes go down, then it will be interesting to see how the NTA handle it.

I'd assume they would take each BE route and create a unique license for it. I would hope that they would then have an open and transparent auction of each route, with certain operational guarantees set (schedule, etc.). I'd hope that part of the bidding process would be to see if a subsidy is needed at all for the route or what subsidy level is needed. I'm certain there are some PSO routes which really wouldn't need a subsidy if a more efficient operator ran them.

I'd also like to see the NTA consider if some routes should be PSO at all and if instead if they could become purely commercial routes and offered on that basis, with the usual two operators per route rule. Routes like the 109 would probably really benefit from this change.

This would all certainly lead to short term inconvenience and pain for commuters while it is all being set up. But it could be the begging of a far more efficient, well run, transparent and competitive public transport services outside of Dublin.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 30-03-2017 04:12PM

bk;103072021
I'd assume they would take each BE route and create a unique license for it. I would hope that they would then have an open and transparent auction of each route, with certain operational guarantees set (schedule, etc.). I'd hope that part of the bidding process would be to see if a subsidy is needed at all for the route or what subsidy level is needed. I'm certain there are some PSO routes which really wouldn't need a subsidy if a more efficient operator ran them.

I'd reckon that they are more likely to hold an auction for a basket of routes so that there are multiple routes running to a region which would be able to share a garage. It may be unworkable if different routes shared say routes to Donegal but if Dublin to Letterkenny and Donegal town were auctioned off together the winning bidder could have a local garage easier than if two different operators had both routes.

Just guessing though.

devnull · 30-03-2017 04:21PM

Little point, privates have been around from before the NTA took office, the difference is that before the NTA and the Public Transport Regulation act of 2009 licensing was handled directly by the department of transport and didn't have set criteria, guidelines or laws in the way it does now because of that legislation, the 2009 act basically replaced the 1932 one and brought a level playing field for commercial routes and applying for them and reduced political interference.

poppers · 30-03-2017 04:23PM

when LUAS and dublin bus were on strike the union bosses were on every radio station going, this strike seems to be going on in the background and hardly a mention of it.
could it be cause it doesn't really effect dublin and is more confined to rural ire, or is it that the public are getting on fine with out BE and that private operators are picking up the slack.

sjb25 · 30-03-2017 04:31PM

poppers wrote: »

the public are getting on fine with out BE and that private operators are picking up the slack.

This from my rural area anyway I can't say for the rest of the country but around here everybody seems to be getting on grand and the private bus operators are rolling in the euros

pilly · 30-03-2017 04:44PM

sjb25 wrote: »

This from my rural area anyway I can't say for the rest of the country but around here everybody seems to be getting on grand and the private bus operators are rolling in the euros

Same here from my rural area.

dfx- · 30-03-2017 04:47PM

poppers wrote: »

when LUAS and dublin bus were on strike the union bosses were on every radio station going, this strike seems to be going on in the background and hardly a mention of it.
could it be cause it doesn't really effect dublin and is more confined to rural ire, or is it that the public are getting on fine with out BE and that private operators are picking up the slack.

How is it going in Cork and its city services? The 205/208/203 and the like...

bk · 30-03-2017 04:54PM

poppers wrote: »

could it be cause it doesn't really effect dublin and is more confined to rural ire, or is it that the public are getting on fine with out BE and that private operators are picking up the slack.

It is a mixture of private operators picking up the slack and most people in rural Ireland having cars nowadays (compared to the past).

Those without cars (students, etc.) are mostly getting lifts from family and neighbours to get where they need to go. Often they are getting dropped to the next town over which has a rail or private bus service to get on it there.

Some are probably hitch hiking which isn't particularly unusual in rural Ireland.

I know in Cork most of my family and friends who would normally take city buses are instead walking, cycling, driving, getting lifts or taxis.

People are definitely being inconvenienced, but mostly they are getting by and finding alternatives. And that isn't particularly surprising for the truly rural areas of Ireland where live has always been harder and people are a lot more use to pulling together in their community and helping each other out.

Which is one of the reasons I don't think many people in rural Ireland would be all that upset to see BE go. I think many see BE as a distant Dublin based quango with little understanding of the needs of rural Ireland. I think many would be happy to see them replaced by small local family owned bus companies with a better connections to their communities and better understanding of their needs.

pilly · 30-03-2017 05:13PM

dfx- wrote: »

How is it going in Cork and its city services? The 205/208/203 and the like...

I heard on the radio this morning one big employer in Douglas were running their own buses from Cork City. Voxpro I think it was.

I am surprise however that more people for Cork city aren't kicking off.

Stephen15 · 30-03-2017 05:40PM

Cork is a smaller and much more compact city than Dublin most areas of it are in walking distance of where one may need to go. For example Douglas is only about 5km from Cork CC walkable for most able bodied people a lot of Dublin areas are 10km or more from the CC with little other Luas or Dart options.

Fred Swanson · 30-03-2017 05:51PM

This post has been deleted.

bk · 30-03-2017 05:57PM

Also traffic congestion is much lighter then in Dublin and the city bus service is way worse then Dublin Bus! As a result even before the strike, far fewer people take buses in Cork then they do in Dublin. So there is less impact.

As I mentioned above, talking to family and friends down there who usually get the bus, they are walking, cycling, getting lifts and taxis. Inconvenienced yes, but not the end of the world.

PeadarCo · 30-03-2017 06:00PM

Stephen15 wrote:

Cork is a smaller and much more compact city than Dublin most areas of it are in walking distance of where one may need to go. For example Douglas is only about 5km from Cork CC walkable for most able bodied people a lot of Dublin areas are 10km or more from the CC with little other Luas or Dart options.

Is also not that Dublin has a far better transport network and hence its used more often. The population density also makes cars far less efficient as an alternative. People are more reliant on a system that works all day. Where as in rural areas even PSO services are relatively sparse and people have to alternatives for weekend travel and times outside the times when there are no PSO services during the week. Private companies also cover connections between most of the major population centres in the country.

end of the road · 30-03-2017 06:10PM

pilly wrote: »

I live outside the pale Stringer. Live in a small village, work in another small village and shop in a small town. Not ONE person has mentioned it all week.

This argument of rural Ireland would be lost is a bit of a myth being thrown out there by unions if you ask me.

i don't agree. it's far from a myth. lots of areas are effected by the strike and don't have alternative services.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

100%

Yesterday Willie Noone of SIPTU said “When Minister Ross is not here, Bus Éireann will still be here.” and he promised to “bring this country to a standstill if we have to”.

It's clear from the lack of inconvenience being experienced by the great majority of people that BE has become an irrelevance, that the private operators are capable of delivering equivalent or better services, that the private operators have the capacity to take on passengers who would previously have used BE and that BE won't actually be missed by anyone other than the employees whose skills and experience won't command anything like the pay they currently get in BE and the unions who will have one less pool of contributing members.

“bring this country to a standstill if we have to”. Hilarious.

it isn't clear at all because it's not something you or i would know unless we visited every single area that has a bus service. the strike is having a big effect on areas not served by intercity bus and rail services. the be employees skills and experience will command very near the pay they currently get in be as the pay itself is within market norms and i believe there isn't much in terms of core pay between be and the privates anyway. they won't get the overtime but they aren't getting it anyway now as it's being cut hugely.

BoatMad wrote: »

then ban secondary and sympathetic strikes , and anyone advocating them Mr Noone, then sees the inside of Portlaoise prison

no . the prison spaces are needed for actual criminals. not for someone who supports a strike.

Graham wrote: »

I'd agree with bringing in legislation to ban secondary/sympathy strikes but I'm not sure handing the unions a martyr-card is the answer.

I think much better results could be achieved by holding the unions financially responsible for any losses incurred by unrelated employers during secondary industrial action.

that would be a waste of time as it would likely clog up court time seeing as it's likely the unions would be unable to pay.

Mebuntu wrote: »

That tells you all you need to know about these union bully boys. They are fully prepared without shame to cause untold damage to our country and its citizens. I'm glad to see that they are being treated with the contempt they deserve and that their power to impose their will on the Government and people will soon be be removed for good.

the unions are going nowhere unless their members decide the union isn't working for them.

poppers wrote: »

when LUAS and dublin bus were on strike the union bosses were on every radio station going, this strike seems to be going on in the background and hardly a mention of it.
could it be cause it doesn't really effect dublin and is more confined to rural ire, or is it that the public are getting on fine with out BE and that private operators are picking up the slack.

i find that mostly only the strikes that effect dublin get huge coverage whereas the strikes outside dublin would get coverage on the local stations. a lot of routes are effected which don't have an alternative.

dfx- · 30-03-2017 06:23PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

Cork is a smaller and much more compact city than Dublin most areas of it are in walking distance of where one may need to go. For example Douglas is only about 5km from Cork CC walkable for most able bodied people a lot of Dublin areas are 10km or more from the CC with little other Luas or Dart options.

Even so, the 205/208 have heavy double decker loads anytime I've been in Cork at peak times - they're all walking?

poppers · 30-03-2017 06:31PM

dfx- wrote: »

How is it going in Cork and its city services? The 205/208/203 and the like...

Havent a clue but i havent heard much on the radio to say its a real problem. Im of the belief that the public are getting fed up of the unions lining up one after another to air their woes. (not saying some of them are not genuine, but imagine if the garda story came out when they were going to strike)

bk · 30-03-2017 06:35PM

dfx- wrote: »

Even so, the 205/208 have heavy double decker loads anytime I've been in Cork at peak times - they're all walking?

Walking, cycling, getting lifts from family/friends, carpooling with colleagues, taxis, etc.

ixoy · 30-03-2017 06:38PM

Can union members ask for a new vote? I can't fathom how an increasing number of them aren't thinking, "Lads this is a bit crap isn't it? Reckon I don't want to lose my job".

quadrifoglio verde · 30-03-2017 06:44PM

poppers wrote: »

when LUAS and dublin bus were on strike the union bosses were on every radio station going, this strike seems to be going on in the background and hardly a mention of it.
could it be cause it doesn't really effect dublin and is more confined to rural ire, or is it that the public are getting on fine with out BE and that private operators are picking up the slack.

The reason why Dublin bus or luas being on strike becomes a calamity is down to the sheer number of daily users concentrated in a small area. It causes chaos. It leads to dreadful traffic, especially with the luas strike where it was really concentrated along two routes.

The bus eireann strike is spread out nationwide. The majority of which are rural routes. Routes that have been deemed to be commercially non viable that they need subsidies due to low numbers using them.

Mary mightn't be able to get to castlebar to get her hair done. She'll get it done next week instead and deal with the greys for an extra week.

Yes there are routes that only bus eireann run that have a significant number of passengers, but these are few and far between.

My experience of the achill to castlebar route was that its used by teenagers and the oaps trying to get off the island for the day. Going to the big town, Potter around the shops for the day and get the bus back that evening. However, plenty of neighbours would have been doing that route anyway, or would be more than happy to drop you there if it was for something serious like a hospital visit.
You'd want to be some prick if you're off for the day and unwilling to bring a relative or close friend/good neighbour to the county town for a hospital appointment

TheQuietFella · 30-03-2017 06:50PM

ixoy wrote: »

Can union members ask for a new vote? I can't fathom how an increasing number of them aren't thinking, "Lads this is a bit crap isn't it? Reckon I don't want to lose my job".

Stick to the sci-fi and fantasy! No one's going to be losing their jobs!

Brendan Bendar · 30-03-2017 06:55PM

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Stick to the sci-fi and fantasy! No one's going to be losing their jobs!

Could you, perhaps ,explain why you arrive at that conclusion.??

bk · 30-03-2017 07:07PM

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Stick to the sci-fi and fantasy! No one's going to be losing their jobs!

Well at the very least things are looking very bad for Expressway, so I would expect a few hundred job loses there.

And of course if the company goes into liquidation, then all jobs will be lost.

Don't think that just because they are a semi-state that it can't happen. Plenty of examples of semi-state companies going under in Ireland.

Bass Reeves · 30-03-2017 07:27PM

end of the road wrote: »

i don't agree. it's far from a myth. lots of areas are effected by the strike and don't have alternative services.

I think you be surprised how little of an impact it has. While people in the Pale that commute into Dublin are effected to an extent the rest of the country is getting on with it. Also Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford bus services are poor anyway. Bigger factory;s located in the suburbs have arranged buses for staff( some had buses running all the time as BE service is poor anyway. Because of this you state is incorrect if have facts can you verify them

end of the road wrote: »

it isn't clear at all because it's not something you or i would know unless we visited every single area that has a bus service. the strike is having a big effect on areas not served by intercity bus and rail services. the be employees skills and experience will command very near the pay they currently get in be as the pay itself is within market norms and i believe there isn't much in terms of core pay between be and the privates anyway. they won't get the overtime but they aren't getting it anyway now as it's being cut hugely.

All above is totally incorrect can you verify any of it. First off the BE drivers are gone on strike over overtime and conditions such as sickleave conditions where not just there basic is covered. There skills are no different to any other bus drives. It a driving licience bus qualification. One dose not have to visit every area, social media provides this knowledge about what area's are effected. It was interesting one even to see college students interviewed and one was a child of a bus drive hardly balanced reporting.

end of the road wrote: »

no . the prison spaces are needed for actual criminals. not for someone who supports a strike.

Again you are incorrect if the law on sympathy strike was changed courts would imprison any strikers that disobey it instructions. Such people would be in contempt of court

end of the road wrote: »

that would be a waste of time as it would likely clog up court time seeing as it's likely the unions would be unable to pay.

You are incorrect again courts could seize strike funds, buildings belong to unions membership fees from members not on strike. You have only to look at what happened to the IFA when it was in contempt of court.

end of the road wrote: »

the unions are going nowhere unless their members decide the union isn't working for them.

I am afraid you are wrong and incorrect union membership is declining and at present the vast majority of it members are employed directly or indirectly by the state

end of the road wrote: »

i find that mostly only the strikes that effect dublin get huge coverage whereas the strikes outside dublin would get coverage on the local stations. a lot of routes are effected which don't have an alternative.

You are incorrect can you verify any of what you posted. RTE are quite active in it covering of any strike however it is finding it hard to find passengers are are angry with anyone but the strikers. While there are fewer alternatives the only really effected area's are routes that should not be PSO mostly with in the Pale. The service in most other area's was run to suit drivers not Joe Public.

Bass Reeves · 30-03-2017 07:33PM

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Stick to the sci-fi and fantasy! No one's going to be losing their jobs!

I am afraid this is a possibility. It is unlikely Expressway will continue with out large scale reform. BE management obviously see the writing on the wall for PSO routes which it expects some to be tendered in 2019. This is why total reform is needed. You will find DB will have to get more flexible as well.

monument · 30-03-2017 07:49PM

How are warning still not sinking in?

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Stick to the sci-fi and fantasy! No one's going to be losing their jobs!

Banned for a day.

-- moderator

monument · 30-03-2017 07:55PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I While there are fewer alternatives the only really effected area's are routes that should not be PSO mostly with in the Pale. The service in most other area's was run to suit drivers not Joe Public.

What are you trying to say here exactly?

Are you really trying to claim that users of Expressway, local rural routes, and (non-Dublin) city services are not effected? That's not what many people are saying in radio voxpops and interviews etc.

devnull · 30-03-2017 08:01PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

While there are fewer alternatives the only really effected area's are routes that should not be PSO mostly with in the Pale. The service in most other area's was run to suit drivers not Joe Public.

Personally I think it's pretty wrong (IMO) to say people are not effected, some people are effected as they have no other public transport or viable option and don't drive, some people are not effected because they have viable alternatives for public transport and others drive or cycle.

It's not causing the level of disruption that the union claim it is, but I don't agree that it's causing no disruption, certainly there is disruption there and to say it's pretty much a non event as some posters are is pretty wide of the mark if you ask me.

gordongekko · 30-03-2017 08:07PM

The weather has probably been a bit of a factor as well. It has been a dry enough spell making the walk/cycle a lot easier.

If it was the middle of the winter or lashing rain all week id imagine that tds would be feeling the heat a bit more than they are.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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