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BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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Comments

  • #842
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Lu Tze wrote: »
    This would be hilarious, if BE management know its gone beyond the point of recovery, issue an initial warning to everybody on the next strike day, a final warning the next day, and then firing them all the day after. Wind up the company with no redundancy payments!

    Unfortunately for you they would find that legally impossible.


  • #843
    titan18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,065 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    ixoy wrote: »
    Somewhat ironically, it's the failure of the management they do despise not dealing with this sooner that's causing a lot of these issues.

    Tbf, what were they to do. If they tried to do it sooner, they'd have just striked sooner.


  • #844
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    devnull wrote: »
    Unfortunately for you they would find that legally impossible.

    No they wouldn't. It's legal to fire someone for striking. Problem is you can't cherry pick employees. If you fire one employee for striking you must fire all.


  • #845
    StringerBell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,405 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    devnull wrote: »
    The biggest issue is that it's been allowed to get to situation where overtime is being called a right. A totally dysfunctional situation.

    I agree, overtime was initially used as a requirement rather then a right/optional to bump up the poor wages instead of giving a pay rise, then as a plaster instead of hiring enough staff, and again when wages were slashed it was being used again as a buffer for the poor pay. Poor handling of the situation each time of course but deals that were negotiated which both could live with, even if neither was 100% happy. It only served to kick the can down the road which leaves us here.

    Luckily given the time constraints at least, this one won't drag on much longer. It will be sorted out one way or the other fairly soon. Hopefully that means early next week rather then late next week.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



  • #846
    Turnipman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Turnipman


    devnull wrote: »

    You will find the current tactic from the union when asked wage is to quote figure after tax as well as the old trick of only quoting basic wage.

    None of them will quote overall salary over a year before tax as they know it will never wash with public so they mislead the public

    The trouble is RTE have no desire to report this objectively.

    Exactly.

    For me no responsible media outlet should transmit an interview with any striker who isn't willing to show the interviewer either a recent payslip or, ideally a P60 for verification purposes!

    Otherwise, by transmitting the claimed figures RTE (or whoever) are putting a veneer of truthfulness on unverified figures.

    To make an analogy, if someone told a RTE reporter that (say) Elton John had just died, there is no way that RTE would transmit that claim without verifying it.

    Yet when it's a strike, a striker can claim any pay / loss of income figure that they wish to and RTE will broadcast that claim without any verification whatsoever.


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  • #847
    StringerBell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,405 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    Redo91 wrote: »
    Surely the picketing drivers should just be fired if this strike goes on into next week. As I've said already this isn't a skilled job we are talking about. Replacements could be trained up in a matter of weeks.

    It is a skilled job, you would need to revise your training time table.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



  • #848
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,581 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Redo91 wrote: »
    Surely the picketing drivers should just be fired if this strike goes on into next week.

    no as there are no grounds. it would not be tolerated either i should imagine.
    Redo91 wrote: »
    As I've said already this isn't a skilled job we are talking about. Replacements could be trained up in a matter of weeks.

    they couldn't. it would likely take months or more to train up the amount of drivers required. You will have fired the staff who do the training and i can't imagine dublin bus are going to volunteer staff to do it, as they are the most likely company who may be able to spare staff. non-runner.
    titan18 wrote: »
    Tbf, what were they to do. If they tried to do it sooner, they'd have just striked sooner.

    but at least they would be talking sooner.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #849
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,555 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    If the strike continues what date will the company fold? Would it be able to survive 2 more weeks?


  • #850
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    If the strike continues what date will the company fold? Would it be able to survive 2 more weeks?

    My money is on 8 April.


  • #851
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,555 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    My money is on 8 April.

    The date of the Grand National, perhaps putting the remaining reserves on a horse could save them :D


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  • #852
    Redo91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭Redo91


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    If the strike continues what date will the company fold? Would it be able to survive 2 more weeks?

    Do the strikers realise this is a possibility? They could end up with no job. Talk about shooting themselves in the foot.


  • #853
    StringerBell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,405 ✭✭✭✭StringerBell


    Redo91 wrote: »
    Do the strikers realise this is a possibility? They could end up with no job. Talk about shooting themselves in the foot.

    Do you really think its in any way possible the strikers don't understand all the possible ramifications of the actions?

    Like, even this current problem has been going on months now. Everything has been discussed and considered.

    "People say ‘go with the flow’ but do you know what goes with the flow? Dead fish."



  • #854
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,917 ✭✭✭GM228


    end of the road wrote: »
    no as there are no grounds

    Striking is grounds enough for dismissal.


  • #855
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Redo91 wrote: »
    Do the strikers realise this is a possibility? They could end up with no job. Talk about shooting themselves in the foot.

    I'm not sure they do or at least not how likely it could be. Their unions would have convinced them they'll win. I wonder how many now are having regrets handing control to a body who, ultimately, will still have their jobs regardless of the outcome.


  • #856
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    ixoy wrote: »
    I'm not sure they do or at least not how likely it could be. Their unions would have convinced them they'll win. I wonder how many now are having regrets handing control to a body who, ultimately, will still have their jobs regardless of the outcome.

    They probably thought either management or the government would give in by now and it wouldn't get to the stage it is now.

    The question is do they risk it going further in the hope of a last minute climbdown or bailout or lower their demands?


  • #857
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,581 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ixoy wrote: »
    I'm not sure they do or at least not how likely it could be. Their unions would have convinced them they'll win. I wonder how many now are having regrets handing control to a body who, ultimately, will still have their jobs regardless of the outcome.

    of course they know the risks. i know it's nice to think that somehow the unions are brainwashing people but it just isn't the case.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #858
    XrayGolf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 96 ✭✭XrayGolf


    GM228 wrote: »
    Striking is grounds enough for dismissal.

    Yes, however one would have to dismiss all striking employees (as pointed out earlier, you can't cherry pick) and one would be barred from later reinstating, re-employing or re-engaging any of the sacked employees (again, can't cherry pick who they bring back, it's all or none).


  • #859
    WomanSkirtFan8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭WomanSkirtFan8


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    My money is on 8 April.

    might possibly be even sooner, give the financial hit BE are currently taking.:rolleyes:


  • #860
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,737 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    end of the road wrote: »
    no as there are no grounds. it would not be tolerated either i should imagine.

    Again you are incorrect staff can be sacked for striking provided all striking staff are sacked

    end of the road wrote: »
    they couldn't. it would likely take months or more to train up the amount of drivers required. You will have fired the staff who do the training and i can't imagine dublin bus are going to volunteer staff to do it, as they are the most likely company who may be able to spare staff. non-runner.

    Again you are incorrect BE could recruit drivers who already have liciences. I am sure lots of drivers from private operators would be quite happy to work a new shift system put in place by BE. The private operators could take the BE drivers as replacements and a dose of reality would help these drivers,
    end of the road wrote: »
    but at least they would be talking sooner.

    Again you are incorrect the unions refused to talk and when the entered talks they adopted position which BE could not accept as the company would still have gone bust.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #861
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,737 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    end of the road wrote: »
    of course they know the risks. i know it's nice to think that somehow the unions are brainwashing people but it just isn't the case.

    I think your assumption is incorrect. While unions may not be brainwashing workers neither are they explain economic reality to them. For instance SIPTU famous open gambit in the LUAS demanding changes to work practices, term and conditions and a pay rise that would have increased staffing costs by 60% in 3-4 years. So when you look at it it is likely that unions are not being truthfull to workers about what may happen such as the liquidation of BE

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • #862
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    If the strike continues what date will the company fold? Would it be able to survive 2 more weeks?

    I'd say it's what the minister wants so to reduce his budget.


  • #863
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,917 ✭✭✭GM228


    XrayGolf wrote: »
    Yes, however one would have to dismiss all striking employees (as pointed out earlier, you can't cherry pick) and one would be barred from later reinstating, re-employing or re-engaging any of the sacked employees (again, can't cherry pick who they bring back, it's all or none).

    Correct, you dismiss all those who strike, otherwise unfair dismissal comes into play.

    The part in bold however is incorrect (although you contradict that with what you write in the brackets - your saying you can't rehire any of the workers, but in brackets you say bring back all or none). Apologies if I'm taking you up wrong, but to clarify you can re-hire someone who was dismissed for striking, but you must re-hire all those who were sacked.


  • #864
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Redo91 wrote: »
    Do the strikers realise this is a possibility? They could end up with no job. Talk about shooting themselves in the foot.

    True enough but what they doing really is just speeding up the process. The company dosen't have much longer either way.


  • #865
    The Parish Priest.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭The Parish Priest.


    I have a question, From what I've seen a lot of the rural pso routes only have about 3/7 passengers a day, would it not be more economical to give those routes to a small local "Micks Minibus hire" company rather than BE running their big coaches for a handful of passengers ?


  • #866
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    The Parish Priest. wrote: »
    I have a question, From what I've seen a lot of the rural pso routes only have about 3/7 passengers a day, would it not be more economical to give those routes to a small local "Micks Minibus hire" company rather than BE running their big coaches for a handful of passengers ?

    Well Bus Eireann have the contract to do the routes.

    I agree that some of the pro routes be done more efficiently by a minibus rather than by the full sized coach.


  • #867
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,581 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    The Parish Priest. wrote: »
    I have a question, From what I've seen a lot of the rural pso routes only have about 3/7 passengers a day, would it not be more economical to give those routes to a small local "Micks Minibus hire" company rather than BE running their big coaches for a handful of passengers ?

    it would depend on whether that amount was throughout the day or just on certain services. for be having a standard full coach fleet is easier as the capacity can be moved around and if the route becomes used more the capacity will be there.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #868
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    end of the road wrote: »
    it would depend on whether that amount was throughout the day or just on certain services. for be having a standard full coach fleet is easier as the capacity can be moved around and if the route becomes used more the capacity will be there.

    Also it means they only need one maintenance team, and one stockpile of spare parts.

    On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if a minibus cost a third to a half as much in upfront costs as a coach.


  • #869
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,570 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The Parish Priest. wrote: »
    I have a question, From what I've seen a lot of the rural pso routes only have about 3/7 passengers a day, would it not be more economical to give those routes to a small local "Micks Minibus hire" company rather than BE running their big coaches for a handful of passengers ?

    And that is exactly what happens in the most rural parts of Donegal. Small private companies running mini-buses and small coaches on routes which even BE say are uneconomical even with all their PSO money and yet somehow these small private companies manage to run these routes with no subisdy and still make a profit!


  • #870
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,508 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    bk wrote: »
    And that is exactly what happens in the most rural parts of Donegal. Small private companies running mini-buses and small coaches on routes which even BE say are uneconomical even with all their PSO money and yet somehow these small private companies manage to run these routes with no subisdy and still make a profit!

    Is it not the NTA who judge whether it's profitable or not, and assign the PSO based on that?


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  • #871
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    GM228 wrote: »
    Correct, you dismiss all those who strike, otherwise unfair dismissal comes into play.

    The part in bold however is incorrect (although you contradict that with what you write in the brackets - your saying you can't rehire any of the workers, but in brackets you say bring back all or none). Apologies if I'm taking you up wrong, but to clarify you can re-hire someone who was dismissed for striking, but you must re-hire all those who were sacked.

    They could dismiss all the strikers in advance of shutting operations, if they didn't want to pay redundancy


This discussion has been closed.
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