BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

devnull · 29-03-2017 02:05PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes PSO routes are protected from Competition. However if BE goes to the wall new services will be provided quickly in lots of cases. In some cases commercial operators may apply for a licience with out PSO funding and they may consider the routes viable without subsidity.

You are incorrect again the LUAS dispute showed how public opinion stopped workers from claiming crazy pay rates and the final deal they got was not as good as a one previous offered. You are incorrect there was no vitriol in the papers to read rather hard analysis that showed how greedy the workers were and how stupid the workers/union demands were. They started with a 60% pay claim and ended up with approx 35/year

Big difference with Luas.

Bus Eireann need a taxpayer bailout and are in danger of insolvency. Transdev were not and also did not have productivity issues.

bk · 29-03-2017 02:08PM

XPS_Zero wrote: »

2. The GoBE incident will warn anyone off doing a similar partnership with BE in the future...that is if it doesn't go bankrupt

Absolutely.

To be honest, I and many others on this forum said that GoBus partnering with BE on this route was a really bad idea back when this service was first launched.

And we have been proven right, not just with this latest incident, but with the general performance of the service over the last few years.

The service just hasn't really gained traction and performance of other similar bus services have done around the country. Meanwhile Aircoach on the same route has been growing at a furious pace and is going from strength to strength, eating up the majority of the market share.

GoBE seemed to have been really slow to respond to changes in the market, much slower then GoBus is in Galway. I can only assume this is due to the involvement of BE and having to pass every change in the service by BE. It really shows just how slow BE are to respond to change and even in partnership with private companies, it still cant keep up with the competition.

As a result you can pretty much guarantee no private will ever again partner again with BE like this * or agree to use BE shared facilities. I'm sure GoBus are kicking themselves for partnering with BE and are probably just waiting for their contract with BE to run out to get out of it. They would be doing a fantastic business now during this strike if they hadn't been involved with BE.

* Obviously I'm not including hirein's to cover BE services.

You can also pretty much guarantee any organisation would think twice about hiring BE to run services like park and rides, airport parking buses, business park bus services, cruise ship transfers, etc. And I'd think that the NTA would think twice about rewarding them any of the DB route licenses or other new upcoming route licenses to them. Also if I was the NTA I'd be having second thoughts on allowing BE to continue to administrate the school bus scheme.

BE are proving to be such a badly run and troublesome company, who would want to hire them or partner with them. This puts them in a really bad position for future growth.

Graham · 29-03-2017 02:16PM

end of the road wrote: »

the PSO routes are never going to have actual competition whoever operates them. someone on a PSO route is unlikely to ever be able to choose between operators.

You appear to be under the misconception that competition requires multiple operators on a route.

jimmycrackcorm · 29-03-2017 02:21PM

end of the road wrote:

the PSO routes are never going to have actual competition whoever operates them. someone on a PSO route is unlikely to ever be able to choose between operators.

Probably why they are PSO in the first place.

end of the road · 29-03-2017 02:31PM

bk wrote: »

Absolutely.

To be honest, I and many others on this forum said that GoBus partnering with BE on this route was a really bad idea back when this service was first launched.

And we have been proven right, not just with this latest incident, but with the general performance of the service over the last few years.

The service just hasn't really gained traction and performance of other similar bus services have done around the country. Meanwhile Aircoach on the same route has been growing at a furious pace and is going from strength to strength, eating up the majority of the market share.

GoBE seemed to have been really slow to respond to changes in the market, much slower then GoBus is in Galway. I can only assume this is due to the involvement of BE and having to pass every change in the service by BE. It really shows just how slow BE are to respond to change and even in partnership with private companies, it still cant keep up with the competition.

As a result you can pretty much guarantee no private will ever again partner again with BE like this * or agree to use BE shared facilities. I'm sure GoBus are kicking themselves for partnering with BE and are probably just waiting for their contract with BE to run out to get out of it. They would be doing a fantastic business now during this strike if they hadn't been involved with BE.

* Obviously I'm not including hirein's to cover BE services.

You can also pretty much guarantee any organisation would think twice about hiring BE to run services like park and rides, airport parking buses, business park bus services, cruise ship transfers, etc. And I'd think that the NTA would think twice about rewarding them any of the DB route licenses or other new upcoming route licenses to them. Also if I was the NTA I'd be having second thoughts on allowing BE to continue to administrate the school bus scheme.

BE are proving to be such a badly run and troublesome company, who would want to hire them or partner with them. This puts them in a really bad position for future growth.

the NTA can't exclude be from anything under tendering rules. if they are tendering then be is entitled to a chance. if the NTA don't like it they can allways resign in protest.

Graham wrote: »

You appear to be under the misconception that competition requires multiple operators on a route.

it is the only version of competition i would be interested in myself as i could directly benefit from being given a choice. with tendering the relevant authority decides everything and what they decide may not live up to my expectations, yet i will be in a situation where it is take it or leave it. granted with a public company as current it is also take it or leave it but if taking and leaving is going to be the only option then in my view keeping bus eireann operating the PSO routes is my prefered option.

trellheim · 29-03-2017 02:38PM

What is the NTA fining BE for not operating ?

Graham · 29-03-2017 02:50PM

end of the road wrote: »

it is the only version of competition i would be interested in myself as i could directly benefit from being given a choice.

Ostrich economics doesn't appear to be working all that well for BE drivers at the moment.

Choosing to bury ones head in the sand while pretending there are no external competitive pressures is one of the major contributors to BEs current financial predicament.

bk · 29-03-2017 02:55PM

end of the road wrote: »

the NTA can't exclude be from anything under tendering rules. if they are tendering then be is entitled to a chance. if the NTA don't like it they can allways resign in protest.

Of course you are absolutely correct, they can't stop them from applying and of course they shouldn't be allowed to stop them.

However tendering for government contracts also involves a points system that feed into the final decision.

Companies applying for a tender again or lose points based on think like:
- Proven track record
- Reliability
- on time performance
- Days in operation
- etc.

It isn't just the lowest bidder that wins a contract/license, it is a mix of price plus various other considerations.

With BE's carry on and performance you would assume they would get seriously dinged on many of these metrics.

I think it would be very unlikely that BE would win any such open tender.

BTW just FYI for anyone interested, tenders for contracts like these are fully open and transparent (in terms of the points system) and the tender has to be put up on an EU wide system open to all.

Fred Swanson · 29-03-2017 03:05PM

This post has been deleted.

Jamie2k9 · 29-03-2017 03:12PM

In the space of two hours I have heard pay cuts from under 40 per week to 190 per week, I mean it's like it's been made up as they go along.....

devnull · 29-03-2017 03:12PM

Mr Ross is playing a blinder on this on behalf of the taxpayers. He has gone up a lot in my estimation!

Jamie2k9 · 29-03-2017 03:25PM

devnull wrote: »

Mr Ross is playing a blinder on this on behalf of the taxpayers. He has gone up a lot in my estimation!

He was rather bullish in some of the answers he gave.

Redo91 · 29-03-2017 04:04PM

Somebody told me today that Bus Eireann workers are paid €45,000 a year. Surely that can't be right for an unskilled job? I used to work in retail and full time staff were on less than €30,000. I expected bus drivers to be on something similar.

Jamie2k9 · 29-03-2017 04:05PM

Redo91 wrote: »

Somebody told me today that Bus Eireann workers are paid €45,000 a week. Surely that can't be right for an unskilled job? I used to work in retail and full time staff were on less than €30,000. I expected bus drivers to be on something similar.

At the Oireachtas Committee a pay slip of 622 net was read out so 45,000 is very plausible.

JCX BXC · 29-03-2017 04:08PM

Redo91 wrote: »

Somebody told me today that Bus Eireann workers are paid €45,000 a week.

€45,000 a Week!!! Where do I sign up

Redo91 · 29-03-2017 04:14PM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

At the Oireachtas Committee a pay slip of 622 net was read out so 45,000 is very plausible.

Jesus. I don't know what sort of pay cuts are being proposed but anything around the 33% mark is perfectly reasonable IMO. Madness that they are paid that much.

end of the road · 29-03-2017 04:43PM

Redo91 wrote: »

Jesus. I don't know what sort of pay cuts are being proposed but anything around the 33% mark is perfectly reasonable IMO. Madness that they are paid that much.

it actually isn't considering the responsibility. it's not a job i would do myself. hats off to anyone who would.

Stephen15 · 29-03-2017 04:46PM

Was there a big turnout at todays protest from Dublin Bus and Irish Rail. Obivously there wasn't a big enough turn out from them to effect services as previously feared bar the obvious traffic restrictions.

jimmycrackcorm · 29-03-2017 05:06PM

Redo91 wrote:

Jesus. I don't know what sort of pay cuts are being proposed but anything around the 33% mark is perfectly reasonable IMO. Madness that they are paid that much.

But there won't be pay cuts. Just no automatic overtime.

monument · 29-03-2017 05:10PM

Post deleted because it quoted another post deleted due to personal abuse.

-- moderator

29-03-2017 05:12PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But there won't be pay cuts. Just no automatic overtime.

One driver on RTE at lunch time saying he was getting a cut from 32 down to 25k . What little sympathy I'd have goes out the window when they tell blatant lies. Now if he'd said losing overtime entitlement would leave him on a basic wage of 32k I might have believed him.

Redo91 · 29-03-2017 05:13PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But there won't be pay cuts. Just no automatic overtime.

That makes it worse. So they're still going to be grossly overpaid? Considering the money they're on they don't really have a leg to stand on.

devnull · 29-03-2017 05:15PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

One driver on RTE at lunch time saying he was getting a cut from 32 down to 25k . What little sympathy I'd have goes out the window when they tell blatant lies. Now if he'd said losing overtime entitlement would leave him on a basic wage of 32k I might have believed him.

You will find the current tactic from the union when asked wage is to quote figure after tax as well as the old trick of only quoting basic wage.

None of them will quote overall salary over a year before tax as they know it will never wash with public so they mislead the public

The trouble is RTE have no desire to report this objectively.

devnull · 29-03-2017 05:18PM

Redo91 wrote: »

That makes it worse. So they're still going to be grossly overpaid? Considering the money they're on they don't really have a leg to stand on.

Most of the excess is caused by overtime. 25m euro according to company is the cost of overtime that could be eliminated by better rotas so such work is done in contracted hours.

jimmycrackcorm · 29-03-2017 05:20PM

Mildly amused about a Sinn Fein asking that when they take a 50% pay cut so that the party gets the rest

devnull · 29-03-2017 05:23PM

The biggest issue is that it's been allowed to get to situation where overtime is being called a right. A totally dysfunctional situation.

Redo91 · 29-03-2017 05:24PM

Surely the picketing drivers should just be fired if this strike goes on into next week. As I've said already this isn't a skilled job we are talking about. Replacements could be trained up in a matter of weeks.

ixoy · 29-03-2017 05:28PM

devnull wrote: »

The biggest issue is that it's been allowed to get to situation where overtime is being called a right. A totally dysfunctional situation.

Somewhat ironically, it's the failure of the management they do despise not dealing with this sooner that's causing a lot of these issues.

devnull · 29-03-2017 05:32PM

ixoy wrote: »

Somewhat ironically, it's the failure of the management they do despise not dealing with this sooner that's causing a lot of these issues.

Indeed but at the same time the staff were happy to take the money at the time but now turn around and blame everyone else that it's not their fault and they are not overpaid.

They had it too good for too long and now the taxpayer has had enough and if they blame management for giving them money that shouldn't have why are they protesting now?

The problem in bus eireann is that management for years are scared of the unions and the unions think they run the company. That's a deadly cocktail that leads management to stand idly by through fear and a defiance of authortw when they do act.

Lu Tze · 29-03-2017 05:36PM

Redo91 wrote: »

Surely the picketing drivers should just be fired if this strike goes on into next week. As I've said already this isn't a skilled job we are talking about. Replacements could be trained up in a matter of weeks.

This would be hilarious, if BE management know its gone beyond the point of recovery, issue an initial warning to everybody on the next strike day, a final warning the next day, and then firing them all the day after. Wind up the company with no redundancy payments!

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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