BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

murphaph · 28-03-2017 09:30PM

end of the road wrote: »

it's up to workers to organise to get good terms and conditions. no point in blaming others because you don't get good terms and conditions

It's up to the government through the NTA to get good value for the taxpayer too. Agreed?

ixoy · 28-03-2017 09:38PM

StringerBell wrote: »

The blame for this lays at the feet of management, you only have to have actually followed the industry and decisions for the last number of years to know that.

Yep, but it was a game that the unions were happy to play too as it worked in their favour, re: overtime.

Again though it's irrelevant right now. The question is: How do you sort out the losses? Pointless arguing now who is is to blame - what do you do to fix it? I've waded through pages and pages of these threads and I'm still waiting on a concrete answer from those supporting the drivers. "Cutting management waste" isn't a sufficient answer either..

54and56 · 28-03-2017 09:56PM

This strike seems to be having very little impact on the travelling public. Alternative services whether private operators or other forms of transport seem to be taking up almost all the slack and proving how little the BE service is either used or exclusively relied upon.

It seems to be a great opportunity to get rid of a dysfunctional entity which burns taxpayer money and replace it with private companies (subsidised with PSO's where appropriate) which would not only improve the service but allow the wasted tax money to be spent on something actually useful/value for money.

No doubt the unions will throw a few desperate punches as the inevitable conclusion is arrived at but c'est la vie. In 6 months BE will be a distant memory like Irish Steel, ICC Bank, B&I Ferries etc.

quadrifoglio verde · 28-03-2017 10:05PM

Here we go wrote: »

As far as I know this is just expressway which is serviced by faster cheaper altenitives time to close them down and properly fund pso routes

Pso is properly funded. The current level of funding for each PSO route is set so that it's profitable.

Or should it be funded more at a cost to Joe Soap tax payer so staff at bus eireann can earn more?

What should happen across the board is all PSO routes are put out to tender. If westport to achill can be done at a lower cost to the tax payer by a private bus company, then the state has a responsibility to us tax payers to chose the private bus company.
Joe and Bridie still flash their travel pass as before, I pay the same fare as before. Private company gets paid a set amount, regardless whether it's packed, or empty, that amount being the amount it tendered for.

The state does not owe any bus driver in this country a living. It does owe the citizens of this country a bus service if the commercial option doesn't serve that route but it's deemed necessary.

horseburger · 28-03-2017 10:11PM

bk wrote: »

Bus Eireann doesn't have a competing service, BE's service is a stopping service, while Aircoaches (and now Dublin Coaches) services on the route are direct non-stop services.

Aircoach aren't running this service because of BE, then run it as they need the coach in place for a busy, profitable journey.

Also it is pretty weird to suggest that if BE shut down, that Aircoach would reduce their service! Surely if BE shut down, then that means more passengers for AC/DC ( ) and thus such marginal services should be even busier and more profitable.

Also you have brought up this point multiple times and it has been explained in detail why such low capacity positioning services are required to get the bus and driver in place for the busier leg. It is absolutely the norm in all transport industries, not just bus, but train, planes, hell even Dublin Bikes!

This is a really a very basic concept of transport planning. You really need to stop bringing it up IMO, it sort of brings into question all the other comments you make.

It is also noticeable that you haven't replied to all the people who have pointed out that Aircoach is profitable operation, while BE is not and about to go bankrupt.

In fairness, that's quite a witty acronym!:)

I might have suggested that Bus Éireann were attempting to "Inject The Venom" in the tone of negativity against the striking employees, in it's press statements, or that the tone of its statements have a "Razor's Edge", or that you might be "Beating Around The Bush", explaining once again the points you are making!:D

54and56 · 28-03-2017 10:26PM

horseburger wrote: »

In fairness, that's quite a witty acronym!:)

I might have suggested that Bus Éireann were attempting to "Inject The Venom" in the tone of negativity against the striking employees, in it's press statements, or that the tone of its statements have a "Razor's Edge", or that you might be "Beating Around The Bush", explaining once again the points you are making!:D

If It's not soon Back in the Black BE will without a shadow of doubt be on the Highway to Hell and Shane Ross will be reaching out to the private operators to explore What they will do for money. The unions have bust BE, there's no point giving the dog a bone at this late stage.

end of the road · 28-03-2017 10:50PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

It seems to be a great opportunity to get rid of a dysfunctional entity which burns taxpayer money and replace it with private companies (subsidised with PSO's where appropriate) which would not only improve the service but allow the wasted tax money to be spent on something actually useful/value for money.

there is going to be no savings with your suggestion as to provide any kind of a meaningful service the current level of subsidy will be required. it is after all among, if not the lowest in europe including with capital investment. subsidized services are going to cost the tax payer money, that is just how it is . if one wants public services to exist they are going to except that they will have to be paid for.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

No doubt the unions will throw a few desperate punches as the inevitable conclusion is arrived at but c'est la vie. In 6 months BE will be a distant memory like Irish Steel, ICC Bank, B&I Ferries etc.

be is going nowhere.

horseburger · 28-03-2017 10:51PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

If It's not soon Back in the Black BE will without a shadow of doubt be on the Highway to Hell and Shane Ross will be reaching out to the private operators to explore What they will do for money. The unions have bust BE, there's no point giving the dog a bone at this late stage.

This is certainly a more pleasant exchange of views!

We might say that Shane Ross hasn't the "Big Balls" to get involved in this dispute, and save Bus Éireann, in the "Nick of Time", and that he is anything but a "Live Wire" on this issue!:D

n97 mini · 28-03-2017 10:56PM

Stheno wrote: »

The first was gotten rid of a few years ago

In the bust, 15 years after payments went electronic. I was working in the PS for the tail end of it.

murphaph · 28-03-2017 10:58PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is going to be no savings with your suggestion as to provide any kind of a meaningful service the current level of subsidy will be required. it is after all among, if not the lowest in europe including with capital investment. subsidized services are going to cost the tax payer money, that is just how it is . if one wants public services to exist they are going to except that they will have to be paid for.

Disingenuous post. We could have better services for the current subsidy and I'd say most posters here would support increasing the subsidy but not just to pay BE drivers even more.

54and56 · 28-03-2017 11:08PM

end of the road wrote: »

be is going nowhere.

Ain't that the truth!!

Stephen15 · 28-03-2017 11:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

be is going nowhere.

I can't see hundreds of communities going without a bus route. My prediction is a new similar scaled down company with the NTA taking a stronger fist down over the company will be set up minus expressway whose routes will be replaced by local services.

Altough your prediction could well be true but the clock is ticking so some sort of arrangement will need to be made within the coming days not a highly unrealistic prediction.

horseburger · 28-03-2017 11:15PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Ain't that the truth!!

I'm not sure that's an AC/DC song title related pun!:)

XPS_Zero · 28-03-2017 11:27PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Hard to pickets from a cell. Hopefully charges are pressed that sort of intimidation isn't welcome.

Send the public order unit down to BusAras to prevent intimidation of GoBus and Translink drivers using the Dublin Connoly bus bays

They had 100 or so POU guys there for grannies protesting water meters and beating up owl fellas resisting CPOs in Mayo if they can do that they can do this

...and for CHRIST SAKE STOP repeating the same two poor arguments ad nausium:

1. "we stop in de little towns and make a loss coz we've a PSO function" argument it's EXPRESSWAY that's going broke and pulling the rest down with it NOT the PSO end

2. This is about yellow pack wages

Get off the stage ffsake 40k a year before overtimes pretty decent wages there's high skill graduates out of uni 10 years not earning that

This is not about core wages it's about OT. I've heard many drivers quite €200 roughly a week they'll loose.
Sure that's a lot but that's just a sign you got way too much overtime way too often and started to think of it as core basic wages so grew financially dependent on it by expanding your personal spending over the years accordingly

Somewhere personal responsibility has to come in here. If you counted on non core money always being there if needed when there was no such gaurentee then that was extremely foolish and the rest of us can't expect to have money taken out of our education health or welfare services to reward that irresponsible decision and maintain your lifestyle

At the end of the day it's a problem of math. Your company IS GOING BROKE! All the tantrums and strikes won't stop that and expecting key social services to be cut (or borrowing the cash and lumping the interest on to the next generation already laden with bank debts) even a small cut to fund your OT is really selfish .

If you weren't s state company you'd be broke and before you give me the PSO line AGAIN I AGAIN remind you we're talking about the commercial arm.

Yes the way the licences are set up needs changing so negotiate that as part of the deal to reduce overtime so your wages arnt threatened in. 5 years time (by change I don't mean shutting them out just a fairer set up) you have the leverage use it for something besides a directionless tantrum, throw in management changes n cuts too. Talk it out

Reality won't go away. The state can't be bullied into just writing a cheque to paper over the cracks of bad work practices and waste it's not 1970 anymore lads

...and frankly lads I know you see yourselves as defending the working mans position but public sector unions in stunts like this just like the old winter of discontent only do more damage to unions image in the public mindset and only add to arguments for privatisation
Many will have used a private service here for first time and may not go back, you are shooting yourselves in the foot in so many ways it's comical

Math is what it is, and endless state bailouts at the expense of social services are not the answer

monument · 28-03-2017 11:29PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

I can't see hundreds of communities going without a bus route. My prediction is a new similar scaled down company with the NTA taking a stronger fist down over the company will be set up minus expressway whose routes will be replaced by local services.

Altough your prediction could well be true but the clock is ticking so some sort of arrangement will need to be made within the coming days not a highly unrealistic prediction.

Do you really think the Government would survive that?

end of the road · 28-03-2017 11:37PM

XPS_Zero wrote: »

the rest of us can't expect to have money taken out of our education health or welfare services to reward that irresponsible decision and maintain your lifestyle

endless state bailouts at the expense of social services are not the answer

money isn't taken out of other social services though. the money needed isn't fully put into them in the first place and wouldn't be even if the drivers were on minimum wage with nothing else unfortunately.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

public sector unions in stunts like this just like the old winter of discontent only do more damage to unions image in the public mindset and only add to arguments for privatisation

i would have agreed with you 20 years ago but not now.

Stephen15 · 28-03-2017 11:45PM

monument wrote: »

Do you really think the Government would survive that?

It's touch and go

Cookie_Monster · 28-03-2017 11:52PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is going to be no savings with your suggestion as to provide any kind of a meaningful service the current level of subsidy will be required.

proof? BE openly admit their payroll costs are 25m too high due to excessive drivers and poor time management practices. bring that down and subsidy can be reduced proportionally, surely?, no?

XPS_Zero · 29-03-2017 12:00AM

devnull wrote: »

Might be politically difficult however.

The service is a partnership between Bus Eireann and GoBus even if the service is technically a GoBus one operated by non BE staff.

There's two ways they've shot themseves in the foot now:

1. Making people who otherwise might not have tried them check out private alternatives which they may stick with

2. The GoBE incident will warn anyone off doing a similar partnership with BE in the future...that is if it doesn't go bankrupt

XPS_Zero · 29-03-2017 12:13AM

end of the road wrote: »

as has been said thousands of times over my years on here (i don't understand why this is hard to grasp) the union's job is to look after it's paying members. nothing more and nothing less. public approval is nice but ultimately it won't make the issue go away. i think the only people who have a "hatred" of be are a small few on here. the only "mandate" the government will have to do away with be will be their own one, nothing to do with the public.

Those of you on strike...
YOURe NOT SOME SUPERMARKET WORKER
You are a government service employee

The public pay your god damn wages!
That makes us your employers
Our approval isn't a "would be nice " it's a MUST

We elect the political leadership that decide if you are publically owned, fully privatised, some hybrid ala Luas and it's public reaction and pressure that makes a minister go yeh or nay on something
I ran several politicians offices believe me if angry people are calling and emails are flooding in that tips their decision especially as a minister

If those calls etc are against you because intimidation by some even a minority say for example stopped their kid getting to n from college you're screwed

The arrogance and entitlement to excessive OT (talking about it as if it was the minimum wage) then these intimidation stories....it's all toxic political PR believe me.

You. Need. The public.
This isn't like a Tesco strike where it's just workers and bosses the taxpayers involved here it's us who you want to cut a cheque to fix this ffsake

Even if politicos in THIS strike go against the public mood (unlikely) it's the publics overall views on such matters as competition, privatisation etc that are tipped by stuff like this

BuilderPlumber · 29-03-2017 12:23AM

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Those of you on strike...
YOURe NOT SOME SUPERMARKET WORKER
You are a government service employee

The public pay your god damn wages!
That makes us your employers
Our approval isn't a "would be nice " it's a MUST

We elect the political leadership that decide if you are publically owned, fully privatised, some hybrid ala Luas and it's public reaction and pressure that makes a minister go yeh or nay on something
I ran several politicians offices believe me if angry people are calling and emails are flooding in that tips their decision especially as a minister

If those calls etc are against you because intimidation by some even a minority say for example stopped their kid getting to n from college you're screwed

The arrogance and entitlement to excessive OT (talking about it as if it was the minimum wage) then these intimidation stories....it's all toxic political PR believe me.

You. Need. The public.
This isn't like a Tesco strike where it's just workers and bosses the taxpayers involved here it's us who you want to cut a cheque to fix this ffsake

Even if politicos in THIS strike go against the public mood (unlikely) it's the publics overall views on such matters as competition, privatisation etc that are tipped by stuff like this

Any sympathy the public may have had is erroded by the horrid nature of this rogue strike. Total disruption of bus services with perhaps the train service as well totally disrupted is just not on. The public support BE and companies like them so they should run their services for the public. This strike is a disgrace and ALL parties involved are getting worse and worse every day. This thing should not have been allowed go on beyond Friday. That makes the government look the worst, as they have the POWER to stop it in any number of ways but chose not to.

BuilderPlumber · 29-03-2017 12:28AM

XPS_Zero wrote: »

There's two ways they've shot themseves in the foot now:

1. Making people who otherwise might not have tried them check out private alternatives which they may stick with

2. The GoBE incident will warn anyone off doing a similar partnership with BE in the future...that is if it doesn't go bankrupt

So true. BE does not deserve our custom after this disgrace. Poor management practices and rogue strikes. 2 wrongs for which the PUBLIC are being punished with while BE management and NBRU give us the 2 fingers. As bad as BE and NBRU are, the government are worse for letting these vile organisations get away with this disgrace since last Friday!! Shane Ross has shown VERY POOR leadership and is another weak, spineless minister who cannot show backbone when needed. A proper minister would order these disruptors to resume talks or face some type of sanctions.

BuilderPlumber · 29-03-2017 12:33AM

I think we need a Dail meeting and new emergency legislation drafted in THIS WEEK with regard to what is acceptable industrial action and what is not acceptable. Clearly this rogue strike has occurred because of poor legislation that does not cover how to deal with a rogue strike. Legislation should enshrine in law limitations on strikes and should outlaw things like indefinite strikes, complete strikes that last more than a day, and sympathy strikes. The greater good needs to be protected from internal organisational quarrels.

end of the road · 29-03-2017 12:47AM

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Those of you on strike...
YOURe NOT SOME SUPERMARKET WORKER
You are a government service employee

The public pay your god damn wages!
That makes us your employers
Our approval isn't a "would be nice " it's a MUST

We elect the political leadership that decide if you are publically owned, fully privatised, some hybrid ala Luas and it's public reaction and pressure that makes a minister go yeh or nay on something
I ran several politicians offices believe me if angry people are calling and emails are flooding in that tips their decision especially as a minister

If those calls etc are against you because intimidation by some even a minority say for example stopped their kid getting to n from college you're screwed

The arrogance and entitlement to excessive OT (talking about it as if it was the minimum wage) then these intimidation stories....it's all toxic political PR believe me.

You. Need. The public.
This isn't like a Tesco strike where it's just workers and bosses the taxpayers involved here it's us who you want to cut a cheque to fix this ffsake

Even if politicos in THIS strike go against the public mood (unlikely) it's the publics overall views on such matters as competition, privatisation etc that are tipped by stuff like this

public approval is nice but it isn't going to make a difference to the outcome to this issue, only management and staff can make a difference. public reaction and pressure only makes a minister go yeh or nay on something if the government itself or part of it is for or against the issue. look at water charges, the biggest example of something with little support but which will be introduced in some form regardless of protests and everything else.

StringerBell · 29-03-2017 12:48AM

ixoy wrote: »

Yep, but it was a game that the unions were happy to play too as it worked in their favour, re: overtime.

Again though it's irrelevant right now. The question is: How do you sort out the losses? Pointless arguing now who is is to blame - what do you do to fix it? I've waded through pages and pages of these threads and I'm still waiting on a concrete answer from those supporting the drivers. "Cutting management waste" isn't a sufficient answer either..

The guy appointed to the company to oversee this is the same as did Clearys, I am pretty confident if the company is to fold, and be reborn that will be seen as a win.

The game? It suited the company best to not have to hire enough employees to cover the needs of the job at the time so that was it, of course the unions fought to get the best deal they could. That is there job.

I am not sure anybody believes there is nothing to be done other then cuts to management, which are necessary too imo anyway, but in themselves not sufficient. Shave off a few of the guys earning 100k+ a year couldn't hurt, but won't solve the problem.

The notion that the company has to be profitable is a myth that needs to go away now, it was never set up to be profitable, hence the subsidies. It is there to provide a public service, not to make money.

There is imo a need for scaling back on certain routes, there is a need for redundancies, voluntary preferably. I know of employees, not drivers, who receive a weekly "bonus" of 200/250 euro, for what I am not exactly sure, I seem to remember it being paid in lieu of something else, the practices have been ****ed for a long time. A restructure of the company and its operations is not the issue for me, cutting salaries, wage freezes, we have been there and done that. Real change is needed, from the top, with consent from all sides, neither has to be happy but has to be something both can live with.

My father would have actually been one of the members to vote No to an all out strike, but it is what we have right now. I think you will find wading through pages and pages of this bull**** is going to do you any good if I'm honest, may aswell just listen to Joe Duffy instead, least you can do it while driving!

TL;DR - There is no good solution , people need to be realistic and understand that the company is not there to make money. Management needs to trim the fat, routes and drivers also need to be curbed to varying degrees.

There are a lot of families facing uncertainty and worrying about the future in this, many more people affected then the amount of actual employees and the human side is often forgotten about. There has been literally no move from the company to engage, even before this they were putting one message through the media and sending another message directly to the inspectors. Best thing people can do is step away from the spin and if they really want to gain an understanding of the situation then put in some effort to research.

The cynic in me see's a divide and conquer approach, that will most likely succeed due to the failure to win the PR battle or at the very least actually manage to get the facts of the matter out from the Union side.

I'm way too tired to be attempting to focus on this post right now, I apologize for the rambly nature.

BoatMad · 29-03-2017 12:51AM

Just some clarification.

BE receives a subvention for PSO routes. It broke roughly even on that section of its business in 2015

BE cant receive any subvention for expressway which by definition are non pso routes.

It's this section of BE where the losses are mounting ( because the taxpayer is already covering the ineffucency and high salaries in the PSO part of BE )

StringerBell · 29-03-2017 12:57AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

I think we need a Dail meeting and new emergency legislation drafted in THIS WEEK with regard to what is acceptable industrial action and what is not acceptable. Clearly this rogue strike has occurred because of poor legislation that does not cover how to deal with a rogue strike. Legislation should enshrine in law limitations on strikes and should outlaw things like indefinite strikes, complete strikes that last more than a day, and sympathy strikes. The greater good needs to be protected from internal organisational quarrels.

You keep saying rogue strike when you mean to say, legal strike. Or do you simply disagree with striking in general? Workers rights? **** workers rights kind of thing?

StringerBell · 29-03-2017 01:04AM

BoatMad wrote: »

Just some clarification.

BE receives a subvention for PSO routes. It broke roughly even on that section of its business in 2015

BE cant receive any subvention for expressway which by definition are non pso routes.

It's this section of BE where the losses are mounting ( because the taxpayer is already covering the ineffucency and high salaries in the PSO part of BE )

If they can't receive a subvention for expressway why pretend there is some connection to the subvention they receive for the PSO routes?

They receive a subvention for PSO routes, obviously.

They cannot for Expressway, obviously.

No need to muddy the waters when you are "clarifying" Its not like if the subvention wasn't going toward PSO's it could go toward Expressway.

BuilderPlumber · 29-03-2017 01:12AM

StringerBell wrote: »

You keep saying rogue strike when you mean to say, legal strike. Or do you simply disagree with striking in general? Workers rights? **** workers rights kind of thing?

No, I am not against workers' rights. Strikes should be legal but strikes should also be regulated. This is a rogue strike because it is hardline and extreme. The greater good is threatened here. It take 2 to tango (3 here) and all sides are bad here. The government could do a hell of a lot more to rein in both sides but has not. Prediction is: the customer suffers from stubborn management cutbacks and rogue strikes. Already exorbitant BE fares will go up.

Some people may have the mindset of 'it's only a bus strike'. But suppose if there was an electricity strike, postal strike, phone strike, bank strike and so on and all the same time. Suppose they all called a rogue indefinite strike. Suppose if the gardai and army went on strike indefinitely. What happens then is a breakdown in vital services. Sadly, this BE strike and the lack of government response to rein it or its causes in shows us 2 sad things: that the government will tolerate actions that inconvenience the public for a prolonged period of time and that they will do nothing about it. Shane Ross has shown very POOR leadership, actually no leadership on this one. BE has shown poor management of its company for years. The NBRU has shown poor judgement to go down the rogue strike route and have lost the sympathy of the people. Normally, I support workers' rights and their fight but have to draw the line here. This is a rogue strike done by sociopaths who could not care less about who it hurts inclusive of those they CLAIM to represent. Any hardliner is also destructive and the hardliners in BOTH camps here (BE management and NBRU) are classic examples.

StringerBell · 29-03-2017 01:17AM

This comment from one of online sections of a newspaper is interesting.

A chara, – I am not annoyed with the Bus Éireann workers. I wish them well. I am extremely annoyed at the nonchalant indifference of Shane Ross, who is supposed to be the Minister for Transport. Is it because he resides within the Pale and is out of touch with rural Ireland? Union leader Dermot O’Leary’s call for an all-stakeholder forum is reasonable. The Department of Transport, the National Transport Authority, Bus Éireann, private operators, the unions and all other relevant stakeholders need to sit down and figure out what the future of our bus network should look like. That will help inform deliberations between Bus Éireann management and unions to resolve the current impasse. Instead, the Minister has done nothing. If something is not done soon, the dispute will spread to the rail network, and the Pontius Pilate act won’t wash then. The Minister could well find himself on the road to nowhere! – Is mise,

The complete lack of interest from Shane Ross is telling its own story.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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