Is Ireland really a nation of animal lovers?

the_pen_turner · 28-03-2017 12:11PM

Has anyone got an article on the urban v rural. People are saying urban has less cruelty.
I don't believe that.

You will get sick people in both.

Some of the cruelest things in den are in towns and villages.
Look at all those horses. Dogs wandering estates looking in bins for food.
A lot of cruelty is done by animal lovers.
Locking their dogs and cats in all day. Can't get out to clean them selves, stuck in all that heat, can't run around . That's pure cruelty.

chicorytip · 28-03-2017 02:26PM

Bambi985 wrote:

Seeing clips everywhere from his "Being Mum and Dad" documentary about life after the death of his wife that will be airing on BBC tonight.

JupiterKid wrote:

I've heard that Ireland doesn't have great form historically when it comes to animal welfare. I've also heard that animal cruelty and neglect cases have been decreasing in the past 20 years but that these rates were appalling in the 1970s and 1980s. Why is this? The UK is known as a nation of animal lovers. Is this true? Are we playing catch up?

jooksavage wrote:

I think we're not terrible, definitely improving. I'm a farmer. Recently finished a green cert and I was heartened by the emphasis placed on humane handling, animal welfare and stress-minimisation. The rougher cowboys on the course were rebuked by their classmates and instructors. There's always gonna be some assholes who need to be kept in line by threat of prosecution by the "cruelty man" but most of the farmers I know, young and old, want happy, healthy livestock.

jooksavage wrote:

People who fundamentally oppose eating meat won't agree - thats ok: it's not like there's a concensus among farmers either. I think there are still areas that need improvement. I'm not a fan of the intensive pig and poultry operations - margins are low and these models are the only way to break even. That's the consequence of the â‚¬3 chicken. I hate fox hunting and have denied the the local hunts permission to use our lands. This is very common now (admittedly it has more to do with protecting land and fencing than the fox). The most visible offenders down here are some members (not all) of travelling community. My off-farm job is across the road from a halting site and its filled with emaciated horses and dogs. Only last year, 2 horses were impaled on the railing around the site. Another was hit by a lorry. The dozen or so tethered there at the moment are skin and bone. Maybe some eduction should be required as a prerequisite to owning animals.

An outright ban of the appallingly cruel "sport" of Sulky Racing would be a welcome start.

Birneybau · 28-03-2017 02:29PM

chicorytip wrote: »

An outright ban of the appallingly cruel "sport" of Sulky Racing would be a welcome start.

I believe you quoted something from the wrong thread

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 28-03-2017 02:41PM

No, I wouldn't describe Ireland as a nation of animal lovers especially when people who actually do love and care for their animals are laughed and scoffed at

Graces7 · 28-03-2017 02:48PM

Wonderfully "caring" we are..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dog-owner-fined-2500-for-causing-unnecessary-suffering-to-her-five-pets-783408.html

please; contains distressing photos

THankful for the spca .

farmchoice · 28-03-2017 03:02PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

Ah yes, I knew I would get a knee jerk reaction from someone.:rolleyes: I have read a couple of books on animal welfare and they ALL point to a trend where animal welfare and the level of urbanisation and development of a country are positively correlated.

Why the need to be so defensive? Did I actually opine that rural Ireland was cruel to animals? No, I did not. Perhaps read my posts before going into hyper-reaction mode.

And Ireland does not have one of the best records in terms of animal welfare. Battery chicken farming, live transport of cattle, sheep and pigs, fox hunting and hare coursing are still widespread, as is the abandonment of animals. We are improving but IMO still have some way to go.

As for dragging the abortion issue into this thread - well, that's just bizarre.

could you name those books please as I'd like to read them this is a subject I'm interested in and i wasn't aware of any particular studies in that area.

dogs and cats are generally well treated in Ireland as pets and our cattle and sheep are pretty well treated over all especially compared to other countries where meat production is big business.
so in that regard most of our animals are in rural Ireland and most are well treated ( at least compared with other countries).

but its a funny one because when you look at it what is good treatment. take race horses, they are well housed, very well fed get great medical treatment, brushed, groomed etc.
then after that they are forced to run as fast as they can with a man on there back over and over again, and or jump over fences over and over again this is surely the height of cruelty.

osarusan · 28-03-2017 03:17PM

farmchoice wrote: »

but its a funny one because when you look at it what is good treatment. take race horses, they are well housed, very well fed get great medical treatment, brushed, groomed etc.
then after that they are forced to run as fast as they can with a man on there back over and over again, and or jump over fences over and over again this is surely the height of cruelty.

Whatever about while they are racing, horses and greyhounds don't have a great life afterwards, if they have any at all.

Many greyhounds end up buried somewhere, minus the tattooed ear that could identify them.

kunst nugget · 28-03-2017 03:18PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Wonderfully "caring" we are..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dog-owner-fined-2500-for-causing-unnecessary-suffering-to-her-five-pets-783408.html

please; contains distressing photos

THankful for the spca .

Yes, because that one owner is entirely representative of all 4.5 million of us.

VinLieger · 28-03-2017 03:27PM

Hans Bricks wrote: »

Whatever about animal welfare, the attitude toward urban horses in Ireland is despicable.

How on Earth the local councils can just allow reams of horses to live out a miserable, sub standard existence on some kip council estate green to placate the local Jeremy kyle brigade at their beckoned call is beyond me. West Dublin has become terrible for it over the years.

cus "its a part of their culture" and we aren't allowed criticise

VinLieger · 28-03-2017 03:29PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Yes, because that one owner is entirely representative of all 4.5 million of us.

2000 horses had to be euthanised between 2013 and 2015

http://www.thejournal.ie/my-lovely-horse-dublin-abuse-cruelty-3302265-Mar2017/

It might not be all 4.5 million but thats a disgraceful number

Gavinz · 28-03-2017 03:29PM

Definitely a nation of animal lovers, once during PE, we watched in horror as the poor, scruffy kid wanked off a stray dog for laughs.

ScumLord · 28-03-2017 03:40PM

In Ireland and in any modern urbanised group of humans we like to promote the idea of being kind to animals but it's a kind of false kindness that's geared more towards our fellow humans than actual animal welfare.

I don't think people in cities treating dogs like children has been particularly good thing for dogs. many of those dogs/cats basically end up as prisoners of the owners house with maybe an hours worth of exercise every day. Not the best lifestyle for a long range hunter. We've been breeding them to be small so it's convenient for us, but it's not doing the species, the species! Any good, breeding disabilities into the healthy population.

Urban folks might give a thumbs up for animal welfare but in the real world their actions cause massive cruelty, intensive farming is there to feed cities. I often get the impression city folks concept of the countryside, farming and wildlife is very lacking, the countryside is a mythical land far, far away and they don't really understand the realities of life for animals outside the city.

Tayschren · 28-03-2017 03:48PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

He must be speaking your language so...

"There is something profoundly cynical, my friends, in the notion of paradise after death. The lure is evasion. The promise is excusative. One need not accept responsibility for the world as it is, and by extension, one need do nothing about it. To strive for change, for true goodness in this mortal world, one must acknowledge and accept, within one's own soul, that this mortal reality has purpose in itself, that its greatest value is not for us, but for our children and their children. To view life as but a quick passage alone a foul, tortured path – made foul and tortured by our own indifference – is to excuse all manner of misery and depravity, and to exact cruel punishment upon the innocent lives to come"

Knine · 28-03-2017 03:58PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Yes, because that one owner is entirely representative of all 4.5 million of us.

Unfortunately that is not an isolated example. There have been loads of similar cases

....... · 28-03-2017 04:00PM

This post has been deleted.

eviltwin · 28-03-2017 04:00PM

ScumLord wrote: »

In Ireland and in any modern urbanised group of humans we like to promote the idea of being kind to animals but it's a kind of false kindness that's geared more towards our fellow humans than actual animal welfare.

I don't think people in cities treating dogs like children has been particularly good thing for dogs. many of those dogs/cats basically end up as prisoners of the owners house with maybe an hours worth of exercise every day. Not the best lifestyle for a long range hunter. We've been breeding them to be small so it's convenient for us, but it's not doing the species, the species! Any good, breeding disabilities into the healthy population.

Urban folks might give a thumbs up for animal welfare but in the real world their actions cause massive cruelty, intensive farming is there to feed cities. I often get the impression city folks concept of the countryside, farming and wildlife is very lacking, the countryside is a mythical land far, far away and they don't really understand the realities of life for animals outside the city.

Ironically you will probably find more people who choose not to eat animals for welfare reasons in the city. I think some urban people can be a bit ignorant of the reality of farming, maybe because so many don't get to experience a real farm, only those nice ones they visit on school tours or take their kids too. I think rural people tend to see animals as food, a commodity which is also understandable.

28-03-2017 04:07PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

The UK is known as a nation of animal lovers. Is this true? Are we playing catch up?

osarusan wrote: »

I've never heard that.

I'd say you'd find roughly the same ratio of pet lovers and animal abuse/neglect as you would in Ireland - maybe in any other first world country.

I've heard this quite a lot. My sister is a vet who relocated to Ireland after a few years' practice in the U.K. She always says she was shocked at how far Brits will go in spending money on their pets, compared to in Ireland, where we take a more utilitarian approach to our pets, probably on account of the fact that we are very much a rural society with a much more practical approach to animals.

For example, pet insurance is a relatively new concept in Ireland. It's been common in the UK since the 1990s. Similarly, almost all of the animal welfare people who come to my sister's practice in Ireland are female, middle-aged British expats. Interesting, isn't it?

As we grow more urbanised, I suspect we are becoming more and more like the Brits in being 'precious' about our pets, which I don't necessarily agree is a good thing.

I love domestic animals, but if my dog has cancer or an old horse gets repeated, serious colics, I would not for one moment hesitate to put them out of pain by euthanasia.

I would also be slow to call the vet every time a dog gets a bump or a bruise or goes a bit lame. It's a practical approach to animals, informed by a farming background, which many people would share, especially in rural areas.

In many respects, I think the British obsession with their pets is a symptom of a society where individualism reigns, and people are increasingly isolated from their communities. I don't look upon this tendency as a healthy development at all, I'm afraid.

ScumLord · 28-03-2017 04:47PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Ironically you will probably find more people who choose not to eat animals for welfare reasons in the city. I think some urban people can be a bit ignorant of the reality of farming, maybe because so many don't get to experience a real farm, only those nice ones they visit on school tours or take their kids too. I think rural people tend to see animals as food, a commodity which is also understandable.

It's not so much about just eating animals, eating animals doesn't necessarily reduce their welfare. Cattle living on a normal Irish farm can have a very good quality of life. It's animals in their entirety, status symbols seem to be a big deal in cities with people wearing expensive clothes and the likes, I think a lot of city folk use animals as status symbols. You don't see many people going out to rescue mongrels, it's all about the pedigree as a status symbol. They want welfare for animals but have no idea what that is or how it would be brought about.

As much as city folk like to think their cultured, I think cities can bring out the most basic behaviour in humans.

goose2005 · 28-03-2017 04:52PM

endacl wrote: »

If a dog isn't replacing a white stick, it has no place in a restaurant.

what if it's replacing a lamb shank?

goose2005 · 28-03-2017 04:54PM

chicorytip wrote: »

An outright ban of the appallingly cruel "sport" of Sulky Racing would be a welcome start.

Racing sulkies on public roads is already illegal, the problem is that the law isn't enforced

28-03-2017 04:55PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Cattle living on a normal Irish farm can have a very good quality of life.

I've never seen a farm in Ireland whose standard practice wouldn't shock a city-dwelling animal rights activist, from the simple use of a stick when herding cattle, to weaning practices.

I think both sides can learn from one another but, without wishing to offend the animal rights side, the tone of their campaign can generally be characterised as hysterical.

There has recently been a PAWS campaign advertised on (Dublin city!) bus shelters, talking about dairy cows and their calves in terms of 'mother and baby' being separated at birth. How can you work with that?

learn_more · 28-03-2017 05:02PM

I was watching a UK TV show the other day on TV3 where cameras follow round a man from the RSPCA who rescues badly treated cats and dogs etc. Some of them were in a shocking state. Although it's great to see the transformation to health after the rescue I shan't be watching it again as it serves as a reminder as to how some people keep their pets and will never be rescued. Depressing stuff. I'm sure the same things go on here in Ireland.

Seanachai · 28-03-2017 05:02PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It's not so much about just eating animals, eating animals doesn't necessarily reduce their welfare. Cattle living on a normal Irish farm can have a very good quality of life. It's animals in their entirety, status symbols seem to be a big deal in cities with people wearing expensive clothes and the likes, I think a lot of city folk use animals as status symbols. You don't see many people going out to rescue mongrels, it's all about the pedigree as a status symbol. They want welfare for animals but have no idea what that is or how it would be brought about.

As much as city folk like to think their cultured, I think cities can bring out the most basic behaviour in humans.

There's a certain 'cohort' who seemed to emerge at the tail end of the boom who latched onto certain dog breeds as status symbols and even to make themselves look tough. They almost never clean up after their pets and the area where I live in Dublin is f**kin destroyed with them, it's one of the first things that friends and relatives notice when they visit, the council and even local residents (god love their naivety) put up signs pleading with them to clean up, not a hope.

archer22 · 28-03-2017 05:05PM

me_right_one wrote: »

This is one of the most clueless, ignorant, and patronizing things I have ever read on Boards.ie.

Have you ever heard of the REPS scheme, where wildlife are specifically given protected strips of land at the farmers expense? Or the Bovine TB eradication scheme, where cattle are treated better than people in some poorer countries by having annual tests for TB and various other diseases? Incidentally, that scheme was started 60 years ago. I bet you've no idea about the hundreds of horse and donkey shelters up and down the country either, ran by thousands volunteers purely to give a comfortable life to old and ownerless horses and donkeys. Or the Traceability system that ensures there has to be a responsible human at the end of the line for every farm animals life, who has to be able to vouch for every incident in that animals life from conception to slaughter, whether it be a medical visit, a change of shed or field, or a day out at a show.

Ireland has one of the BEST animal rights records in the world. We are held up as a shining example among other EU countries. The irony is that our people are not treated as well as our animals. If a cow falls pregnant and cant/wont accept the calf, we have the technology to implant the calf into a willing cow, but if that was a perfectly healthy pro-abortion woman with a perfectly healthy baby, she would rather kill it. And you will NEVER find a homeless domesticated animal wandering around sleeping in doorways.

But of course, I'm not that wealthy and from the country. So I must also be uneducated and cruel to animals. What would I know:rolleyes:

"Bovine TB eradication scheme"= 100,000 Badgers slaughtered on dubious evidence and tens of thousands of cattle slaughtered, a huge proportion of which did not even have TB but gave false reading on old test technology from the the 1950s.
Yeah thats a great example of animal care :rolleyes:.

Lady Haywire · 28-03-2017 05:37PM

archer22 wrote: »

"Bovine TB eradication scheme"= 100,000 Badgers slaughtered on dubious evidence and tens of thousands of cattle slaughtered, a huge proportion of which did not even have TB but gave false reading on old test technology from the the 1950s.
Yeah thats a great example of animal care :rolleyes:.

TB testing wasn't made compulsory for the sole benefit of cattle either, it was more to do with humans getting it by drinking milk from infected animals and trade between us & the UK who had a scheme for testing in place before us.
Certain diseases like Johnes are fatal (eventually) to cattle but we're not obliged to test for it. If we do it's at our own expense and because we want to strengthen our own herd health.

( I am agreeing with you archer, in case you think I'm not!)

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 28-03-2017 07:01PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Wonderfully "caring" we are..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dog-owner-fined-2500-for-causing-unnecessary-suffering-to-her-five-pets-783408.html

please; contains distressing photos

THankful for the spca .

And there were over 48000 cases of cruelty reported to the RSPCA alone in Britain for each of the last 3 years. Some of them are obscene. It's not an exclusively Irish issue.

Lady Haywire · 28-03-2017 07:25PM

Camille Petite Grime wrote: »

And there were over 48000 cases of cruelty reported to the RSPCA alone in Britain for each of the last 3 years. Some of them are obscene. It's not an exclusively Irish issue.

There's even some weirdo going around over there now termed the 'M25 animal killer', some sick people out there.

Sam Kade · 28-03-2017 07:30PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Ireland is heavily dependent on farming and the meat industry with blood sports such as hare coursing, fox hunting etc very popular.

I'm sure a lot of people think they're animal lovers because they like cats and dogs and don't care about anything else. But the reality is as a country we're pretty bad when it comes to animal abuse. In fact the country and people seem to thrive on it.

Killing animals for meat and animal cruelty are two different things.

Sam Kade · 28-03-2017 07:38PM

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

He must be speaking your language so...

Who's writing silly one liners now :rolleyes:

Thelomen Toblackai · 28-03-2017 08:04PM

Sam Kade wrote: »

Killing animals for meat and animal cruelty are two different things.

Animal abuse is animal abuse regardless of whether or not you've got food at the end of it.

Is Ireland really a nation of animal lovers?

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