BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

darbat1 · 28-03-2017 12:38PM

disband the lot, no monopolies any more private buses and before anybody say it will be worse I would rather many crap companies that do a job then one company that just likes to strike for the sake of striking. DB drivers got what they wanted by striking, the people of the this city are tried of being held to ransom by these unions.

murphaph · 28-03-2017 01:03PM

darbat1 wrote: »

disband the lot, no monopolies any more private buses and before anybody say it will be worse I would rather many crap companies that do a job then one company that just likes to strike for the sake of striking. DB drivers got what they wanted by striking, the people of the this city are tried of being held to ransom by these unions.

But you can have orderly (exclusively) private sector involvement in the day to day operations through following tried and tested models like in London. You don't need a free for all. It is really possible to have good services with private sector efficiencies.

The state should actually be spending more on public transport, but not through the CIE vehicle, no way. It should have zonal fares, with all the fares all returning to the NTA. The private operators should just be paid a set agreed figure to run x services at y quality of service for z years. All the bus stops etc. should be brand neutral, owned by the NTA. The timetables etc. should be the sole responsibility of the NTA.

jimmycrackcorm · 28-03-2017 01:22PM

If we get an all out transport strike then they thing I'm not looking forward to is the endless rhetoric about a. We spent billions on the banks, b. De race to De bottom.

I don't even know why it's referred to as a race, nothing is happening very quickly.

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2017 01:27PM

The company is ****ed. This dispute should have come to a head 18 - 24 months ago as management should have been forcing major restructuring at that point. It's too little too late, and I think the Unions are taking a desperate course of action in the knowledge that anything they agree to now will fall short of making the company viable in the medium term anyway.

Fred Swanson · 28-03-2017 01:30PM

This post has been deleted.

horseburger · 28-03-2017 01:31PM

devnull wrote: »

Of course they are, they are the ones who handed blank cheque after blank cheque over to pretty much the whole public sector for year after year without having any accountability of what the money was spent on.

The old FF mantra was, people are protesting, lets give them more money, lets not sort out the problems, here now, not like the money will ever run out will it....oh crap!!!

Vincent Browne, on his TV show, and in his newspaper columns, has regularly made the point, since the crash in 2008, that all the extra spending that Fianna Fail did, in the lead up to the crash, was encouraged by Fine Gael, while in opposition. He argues that Fine Gael showed no discouragement to Fianna Fail, in its spending throughout the years leading to the crash in 2008.

He often says that Fine Gael in opposition, criticized the Fianna Fail government for not having spent more money, in different government departments, and in the services overseen by those departments.

On this forum, you try to give the impression that you have no axe to grind. You have previously suggested that I was Imelda Munster, and here you are, once again, criticizing Fianna Fáil. It seems obvious to me that you are a supporter of the current Fine Gael led government, and its policies, especially in terms of its decreasing support for public transport.

Shane Ross may indeed be Independent, but I am sure Fine Gael were more than happy for him to assume the role of Transport Minister, to ensure it will be able to deflect blame to him, for the current situation.

In contrast to the spending by Fianna Fail across a range of government departments, it has been argued that the decrease in funding, provided to Bus Éireann, started decreasing under Fianna Fail, and was continued by Fine Gael since 2011.

The NBRU has stated that "the subvention levels at Bus Éireann have decreased from 49.4 million euros in 2009 to 33.1 million euros in 2015".

It also stated that "CIE subvention from the state was reduced from 321.10 million euros in 2008 to 188.9 million euros in 2015, ie a reduction of 41.2 %. At the same time, payroll costs were reduced by 12.6%".

Why aren't you praising Fianna Fáil for commencing this decrease, in support and funding for public transport, as indicated by Roisin Shorthall, in this 2009 Dail exchange?

Roisin Shorthall included the following, in her address:

"As a bus user and public representative, representing thousands of bus passengers, drivers and other public transport workers, I have always strongly promoted bus services that are efficient, safe for passengers and workers, cheap, passenger focused and provide a world class service".

"However, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, and his Green Party colleagues have been disgracefully disingenuous in many of their public comments on the Deloitte report and have plainly decided to use this new report as a stick with which to beat Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann".

"What is worse is that they are also attempting to use the Deloitte report as a smokescreen to cover up their appalling record on funding, maintaining and protecting public transport facilities. While Deloitte has provided an interesting analysis of potential changes to Dublin Bus, the critical issue is that the Fianna Fáil-Green Government is intent on overseeing a massive programme of cutbacks to bus services across Ireland".

"The scale of the cutbacks currently proposed for Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann represent an unprecedented attack on public transport services and structures. Bus Éireann has announced that approximately 300 jobs will be lost and 150 buses will be cut from its fleet. It has now been confirmed that key services to be withdrawn include routes from Galway to Tralee, Galway to Lennane and Athlone to Cork. There will also be a reduction in services on the Dublin to Ardcath, Kilkee to Ennis, Kildysert to Shannon and Tuam to Athlone routes, a reduction in euro-line services between Rosslare and Cork-Waterford and London and Sligo and a reduction in the Lough Derg district service, the Sligo town service and the Sligo-Dublin to Drumsna service".

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2009022600007

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2009022600007#N36

https://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/transport/NBRU-presentation.pdf

Graham · 28-03-2017 01:49PM

horseburger wrote: »

It also stated that "CIE subvention from the state was reduced from 321.10 million euros in 2008 to 188.9 million euros in 2015, ie a reduction of 41.2 %. At the same time, payroll costs were reduced by 12.6%".

I seem to recall pay had risen 107% in the last few years leading up-to 2008.

devnull · 28-03-2017 01:51PM

horseburger wrote: »

Vincent Browne, on his TV show, and in his newspaper columns, has regularly made the point, since the crash in 2008, that all the extra spending that Fianna Fail did, in the lead up to the crash, was encouraged by Fine Gael, while in opposition. He argues that Fine Gael showed no discouragement to Fianna Fail, in its spending throughout the years leading to the crash in 2008.

He often says that Fine Gael in opposition, criticized the Fianna Fail government for not having spent more money, in different government departments, and in the services overseen by those departments.

On this forum, you try to give the impression that you have no axe to grind. You have previously suggested that I was Imelda Munster, and here you are, once again, criticizing Fianna Fáil. It seems obvious to me that you are a supporter of the current Fine Gael led government, and its policies, especially in terms of its decreasing support for public transport.

Shane Ross may indeed be Independent, but I am sure Fine Gael were more than happy for him to assume the role of Transport Minister, to ensure it will be able to deflect blame to him, for the current situation.

In contrast to the spending by Fianna Fail across a range of government departments, it has been argued that the decrease in funding provided to Bus Éireann started decreasing under Fianna Fail, and was continued by Fine Gael since 2011.

The NBRU has stated that "the subvention levels at Bus Éireann have decreased from 49.4 million euros in 2009 to 33.1 million euros in 2015"

It also stated that "CIE subvention from the state was reduced from 321.10 million euros in 2008 to 188.9 million euros in 2015, ie a reduction of 41.2 %. At the same time, payroll costs were reduced by 12.6%".

Why aren't you praising Fianna Fáil for commencing this decrease in funding, as indicated by Roisin Shorthall, in this 2009 Dail exchange?

Roisin Shorthall included the following, in her address:

"As a bus user and public representative, representing thousands of bus passengers, drivers and other public transport workers, I have always strongly promoted bus services that are efficient, safe for passengers and workers, cheap, passenger focused and provide a world class service".

"However, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, and his Green Party colleagues have been disgracefully disingenuous in many of their public comments on the Deloitte report and have plainly decided to use this new report as a stick with which to beat Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann".

"What is worse is that they are also attempting to use the Deloitte report as a smokescreen to cover up their appalling record on funding, maintaining and protecting public transport facilities. While Deloitte has provided an interesting analysis of potential changes to Dublin Bus, the critical issue is that the Fianna Fáil-Green Government is intent on overseeing a massive programme of cutbacks to bus services across Ireland".

"The scale of the cutbacks currently proposed for Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann represent an unprecedented attack on public transport services and structures. Bus Éireann has announced that approximately 300 jobs will be lost and 150 buses will be cut from its fleet. It has now been confirmed that key services to be withdrawn include routes from Galway to Tralee, Galway to Lennane and Athlone to Cork. There will also be a reduction in services on the Dublin to Ardcath, Kilkee to Ennis, Kildysert to Shannon and Tuam to Athlone routes, a reduction in euro-line services between Rosslare and Cork-Waterford and London and Sligo and a reduction in the Lough Derg district service, the Sligo town service and the Sligo-Dublin to Drumsna service".

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2009022600007

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2009022600007#N36

https://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/transport/NBRU-presentation.pdf

People are allowed to have opinions my friend. It doesn't mean they are right but I admire your belief and alivm trust in certain political parties that they always speak the truth even if it was misguided.

I note also you cherry pick the years right at the end of the FF government when they reduced subsidy but you don't include the many years before when they increased it and you don't provide a year by year breakdown of pso that increased in both 2015 from 2014 and in 2015 to 20.6. Infaat you don't mention 20160 altogether.

Is the reason you don't mention 2006 due to the large increase and the extra 50m supplied in capital grants? Find it strange you would not mention the year on record.

I have had quite a lot of abuse and all sorts of threats this week. I'm glad you can make a point without resorting to that but am unsure why I!you constantly drift off topic and bring up a!things which happened many years ago

The parties I have voted for in Ireland are labour and fine gael and when I lived in UK I never voted for a right wing party but feel free to paint me as you want. You vote for who you want I do too. Not sure why we need to attack each other. I don't share your views or the lefts views on this matter but you are entitled to have them and I am mine without making someone feel like a criminal.

Peppa Pig · 28-03-2017 01:54PM

horseburger wrote: »

Roisin Shorthall included the following, in her address:
"As a bus user and public representative, representing thousands of bus passengers, drivers and other public transport workers, I have always strongly promoted bus services that are efficient, safe for passengers and workers, cheap, passenger focused and provide a world class service".

Well if she promotes an efficient bus service, that rules out BE. Efficient does not just refer to the timetable, it has to include the structure and work practises of the company. Even the unions acknowledge there are serious inefficiences in BE, they just want to strictly use nimbyism to correct them.

n97 mini · 28-03-2017 01:59PM

horseburger wrote: »

The NBRU has stated that

The NBRU are about as trustworthy a source as Kim Jung Un.

horseburger · 28-03-2017 02:36PM

devnull wrote: »

People are allowed to have opinions my friend. It doesn't mean they are right but I admire your belief and alivm trust in certain political parties that they always speak the truth even if it was misguided.

I note also you cherry pick the years right at the end of the FF government when they reduced subsidy but you don't include the many years before when they increased it and you don't provide a year by year breakdown of pso that increased in both 2015 from 2014 and in 2015 to 20.6. Infaat you don't mention 20160 altogether.

Is the reason you don't mention 2006 due to the large increase and the extra 50m supplied in capital grants? Find it strange you would not mention the year on record.

I have had quite a lot of abuse and all sorts of threats this week. I'm glad you can make a point without resorting to that but am unsure why I!you constantly drift off topic and bring up a!things which happened many years ago

The parties I have voted for in Ireland are labour and fine gael and when I lived in UK I never voted for a right wing party but feel free to paint me as you want. You vote for who you want I do too. Not sure why we need to attack each other. I don't share your views or the lefts views on this matter but you are entitled to have them and I am mine without making someone feel like a criminal.

Devnull, as you well know, it was you who tried to insinuate that I had a political agenda, when you accused me of being Imelda Munster!:)

I questioned your attacking of Fianna Fáil, in relation to the way you suggested that my referencing a recent Joint Oireachtas debate, was an indication that I was a member of Sinn Féin, despite that fact that I also made reference, to contributions in that debate, by three other public representatives - Robert Troy Fianna Fáil, Michael Fitzmaurice Independent and Thomas Pringle Independent.

You really should desist from getting all emotional and offended by using such terms as "making someone feel like a criminal".

Where did I ever accuse you of criminality?

Did you not drift off topic by making a general criticism of Fianna Fáil, because of its policies, while it was in government?

I responded, by asking why you didn't praise Fianna Fáil for decreasing support and funding for public transport in 2009, considering you are supportive of Fine Gael, for continuing this decrease in funding.

It is an indication of Fine Gael continuing a measure that was taken by Fianna Fail in 2009.

Why aren't you in praise of Fianna Fáil for this?

Why did you feel the need to clarify that you never voted for a right wing party in the UK? I never suggested that you did vote for a right wing party, but your statement is unintentionally revealing.

Are you conceding that the policies pursued by Fine Gael, are right wing policies?

https://mediabite.org/2015/04/02/gene-kerrigan-interview-mediabite/

end of the road · 28-03-2017 02:44PM

ixoy wrote: »

Are there bus drivers now wishing they weren't striking as they're seeing a real danger to their livelihood? They can't all be entirely delusional. Do they all now have to continue to strike until the union heads say so or can they call for another vote? I can't imagine dissenting voices are welcomed by that NBRU shower.

individual drivers are free to make whatever choice they wish to make. however as there is a strike, chances are the company is simply closed so anyone who might wish to return to work probably can't.

darbat1 wrote: »

disband the lot, no monopolies any more private buses and before anybody say it will be worse I would rather many crap companies that do a job then one company that just likes to strike for the sake of striking. DB drivers got what they wanted by striking, the people of the this city are tried of being held to ransom by these unions.

there will be monopolies as bundles of routes would be put together for operators, who would likely have exclusive access to those routes as bus eireann would have had before. many crap companies doing a job rather then 1 doesn't sound like something worth wanting to me. the unions don't hold dublin to ransom, they inconvenience people when they strike, which is never for the sake of it. while a strike is regretible, sometimes it needs to happen and the unions simply only act on the ballot of the members, who pay for the services of the union.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

on the commercial routes i'd imagine. for the PSO routes, those people have mostly no service. so letting it go to the wall is not an option in my view.

Graham · 28-03-2017 02:48PM

end of the road wrote: »

many crap companies doing a job rather then 1 doesn't sound like something worth wanting to me

That actually sounds like a much better situation than the one we're in now.

Graham · 28-03-2017 02:50PM

end of the road wrote: »

for the PSO routes, those people have mostly no service. so letting it go to the wall is not an option in my view.

The obvious solution would be to give the subsidy to a private operator to run the route.

ixoy · 28-03-2017 02:55PM

end of the road wrote: »

individual drivers are free to make whatever choice they wish to make. however as there is a strike, chances are the company is simply closed so anyone who might wish to return to work probably can't..

Sure, but if there were sufficient numbers who disagree with this strike, could anything be done if they're in the union? Given their nature I can imagine some NBRU members would not respect it and give anyone who disagreed with them a hard stance.

Worth remembering, not everyone in company is striking either and there's a number of people who are being screwed over by the militants.

Jamie2k9 · 28-03-2017 03:12PM

pilly wrote: »

I heard the radio interview with Willie Noone this morning and it was nothing but a threat. They're trying to use this as a bargaining chip. The fact that he said it would take several weeks to put into action gave away his lie.

If BE are still on strike several weeks from now they will be closed down. Simple as.

Either way, Dublin Bus drivers will not go on sympathy strike with them, they already got what they wanted last year without any support from their BE comrades. Why would they?

It's a poorly thought out bully boy tactic that's not going to work.

It's hard to call how DB would vote, but I suspect IE may vote in favor however it's potentially counter productive considering pay talks due to be heard soon and if they lose a couple of hundred thousand won't be good for staff.

Given it's weeks off BE will be gone or an agreement reached. It's telling when the NBRU have kept their mouths shut since the SIPTU announcement.

pilly · 28-03-2017 03:16PM

ixoy wrote: »

Sure, but if there were sufficient numbers who disagree with this strike, could anything be done if they're in the union? Given their nature I can imagine some NBRU members would not respect it and give anyone who disagreed with them a hard stance.

Worth remembering, not everyone in company is striking either and there's a number of people who are being screwed over by the militants.

It's a good question. If there was a driver who genuinely could not survive without his wages then could he turn up at the office/depot and say he was turning up for work and they'd have to pay him/her?

My heart would go out to those that haven't voted for the strike who are now loosing money because of the hardliners.

monument · 28-03-2017 03:18PM

More bans and infractions out and more to come if people don't read the charter and follow the rules!

Stay on-topic, stop attacking posters / focus on the points not the poster etc.

-- moderator

fxotoole · 28-03-2017 03:29PM

pilly wrote: »

It's a good question. If there was a driver who genuinely could not survive without his wages then could he turn up at the office/depot and say he was turning up for work and they'd have to pay him/her?

I thought unions put money aside to pay their members while they're on strike?

Stheno · 28-03-2017 03:33PM

fxotoole wrote: »

I thought unions put money aside to pay their members while they're on strike?

It's a pittance though compared to their wages, might only be e.g. 50/60 euro a day.

Graham · 28-03-2017 03:39PM

fxotoole wrote: »

I thought unions put money aside to pay their members while they're on strike?

From the Indo:

A union has warned Bus Éireann workers to be on standby for an indefinite all-out strike, despite entering talks to end a row over a €30m cost-cutting plan.
In a notice to its 1,000 members, Siptu said it is "fully prepared, resourced and determined" to defend their conditions of employment.
It indicated its willingness to fund industrial action - with strike pay worth €40 a day

jimmycrackcorm · 28-03-2017 03:41PM

horseburger wrote:

The NBRU has stated that "the subvention levels at Bus Ã‰ireann have decreased from 49.4 million euros in 2009 to 33.1 million euros in 2015".

The interesting question is why the subsidy should have been 49.4m in the first place. It should Bennett have been so high because BE didn't suddenly become inefficient, no they always were and they basically got extra money when the country was awash with cash that we didn't have to spend.

horseburger wrote:

"The scale of the cutbacks currently proposed for Dublin Bus and Bus Ã‰ireann represent an unprecedented attack on public transport services and structures. Bus Ã‰ireann has announced that approximately 300 jobs will be lost and 150 buses will be cut from its fleet. It has now been confirmed that key services to be withdrawn include routes from Galway to Tralee, Galway to Lennane and Athlone to Cork. There will also be a reduction in services on the Dublin to Ardcath, Kilkee to Ennis, Kildysert to Shannon and Tuam to Athlone routes, a reduction in euro-line services between Rosslare and Cork-Waterford and London and Sligo and a reduction in the Lough Derg district service, the Sligo town service and the Sligo-Dublin to Drumsna service".

The NTA is committed to putting routes under PSO where they are warranted and have already announced those for some routes already.

The good news is that there will be 150 buses on the market for private operators to provide more efficient services.

murphaph · 28-03-2017 03:41PM

end of the road wrote: »

there will be monopolies as bundles of routes would be put together for operators, who would likely have exclusive access to those routes as bus eireann would have had before. many crap companies doing a job rather then 1 doesn't sound like something worth wanting to me.

..

on the commercial routes i'd imagine. for the PSO routes, those people have mostly no service. so letting it go to the wall is not an option in my view.

Why do you continue to misrepresent what would happen if BE was taken out of the picture?

Here is the truth of what could/should happen (and this is how it's done in loads of other countries):

1) The NTA creates routes/networks that are in the public interest (based on patterns of where people want to go. Leap makes finding out where people are going quite easy and the data can be made available to the public to ensure transparency in the decision making).

2) The NTA says we have this route that should run to this timetable and invites tenders.

3) The NTA selects a winner, based on price AND past performance-crap private companies would not be considered for future routes!!

4) The NTA retains the fares collected.

5) The state pays the public transport subsidy to the NTA to manage.

A monopoly can abuse its position by charging whatever it likes. A private company operating a route bundle on behalf of the NTA cannot do this. They have no control over the fare box. They just collect the fares and funnel them to the NTA. The fares are set by the NTA.

There are no losers here, correct?

pilly · 28-03-2017 04:02PM

Graham wrote: »

From the Indo:

Do they then get social welfare as well?

Graham · 28-03-2017 04:06PM

pilly wrote: »

Do they then get social welfare as well?

Gut answer would be no. They're not unemployed and even if they were it would be of their own doing.

Heffoman · 28-03-2017 04:06PM

I know from previous experience some Unions do not give strike pay for one day strikes.

Stheno · 28-03-2017 04:06PM

Graham wrote: »

Gut answer would be no. They're not unemployed and even if they were it would be of their own doing.

Yeah I don't think so they are not available for work.

pilly · 28-03-2017 04:07PM

Graham wrote: »

Gut answer would be no. They're not unemployed and even if they were it would be of their own doing.

So they're getting 200 a week? I can't see them sticking that out for too long.

PeadarCo · 28-03-2017 04:08PM

murphaph wrote:

There are no losers here, correct?

There are losers, Bus Eireann and the people who work for them. The reason why its rare for private companies to see extended strike action is that its self defeating when customers switch to competitors. You can see it with this strike if you are on a major commuter/transport corridor the strike will have limited effect. The people who are most affected are those reliant on PSO routes which covers smaller groups of people.

The reason why unions are looking at sympathy strikes at Dublin bus and iarnroid Eireann is due to the weakness of their position. Competition weakens unions probably more than bus Eireann. Its the reason they are so set against it. Particularly if it was extended to the whole of Dublin and PSO bus network in general.

Ultimately the customer and taxpayer gets a better and cheaper services but union reps aren't paid by the ordinary person. It is understandable and logical if selfish position. Where the issue is trying to reconciling that position back to the idea of unions standing up for the weak. As much as I disagree with EOR s/he does a very good job and showing the union position and it's inherent contradictions(seen when the views are questioned) when viewed from the stand point of an ordinary person not part of the relevant union.

murphaph · 28-03-2017 04:25PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

There are losers, Bus Eireann and the people who work for them.

I'll admit, it was slightly leading question

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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