Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

livedadream · 27-03-2017 03:27PM

youtheman wrote: »

Better option would be to use Saturation Divers (from a Dive Support Vessel). The vessel would be D.P. (Dynamic Position), and would be able to operate in fairly extreme weather. And you would have divers operating at the work site 24 hours a day, for up to a few weeks on end. Unfortunately, you'd have to get one from the North Sea, and would cost a few million euros for the complete operation.

eh mate not all of us would relish the idea of our boyfriends and husbands being down there working in horrific conditions for 24 hours, they are trying to be as quick and safe as possible in a very unsafe dive area with a big fecking chunk of a helicopter thats unstable in strong currents and tough conditions.

The ten minute rule while not relevant when your out diving for your jollies is keeping them safe.

Gadgetman496 · 27-03-2017 03:32PM

livedadream wrote: »

eh mate not all of us would relish the idea of our boyfriends and husbands being down there working in horrific conditions for 24 hours, they are trying to be as quick and safe as possible in a very unsafe dive area with a big fecking chunk of a helicopter thats unstable in strong currents and tough conditions.

The ten minute rule while not relevant when your out diving for your jollies is keeping them safe.

Do women not dive?

According to RTE News today the wreckage is stable.

livedadream · 27-03-2017 03:35PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

eh mate not all of us would relish the idea of our boyfriends and husbands being down there working in horrific conditions for 24 hours, they are trying to be as quick and safe as possible in a very unsafe dive area with a big fecking chunk of a helicopter thats unstable in strong currents and tough conditions.

The ten minute rule while not relevant when your out diving for your jollies is keeping them safe.

Do women not dive?

According to RTE News today the wreckage is stable.

well if RTE say it, and no there are no female divers up there at the moment.

Gadgetman496 · 27-03-2017 03:38PM

livedadream wrote: »

well if RTE say it, and no there are no female divers up there at the moment.

RTE didn't say it, the head of the dive team said it on RTE news.

How do you know there are no female divers up there?

Irish Steve · 27-03-2017 03:45PM

OK, I'd be the first to admit that my experience and skills are not in the area of diving. So, I have refrained from getting involved in some of the discussions (or worse) that are happening regarding how the Navy and Garda teams are managing the rescue at Blackrock.

That may have to change if we continue to attract complaints (which we are) about the way that certain people are conducting themselves. There is a Scuba forum on boards, I don't want to have to ask the moderator there for their opinion about some of the comments being made here, and the best way to avoid that happening will be for people to refrain from speaking inappropriately or making "jokey" type comments about a situation that is very much NOT a joke, or in any way amusing.

What I do know is that the Navy and Garda teams are working every available hour in a very difficult and challenging location that is dangerous and complex, and it's made worse by the tides, swell and currents that are happening close to a very large lump of rock.

They are specialists in their field, they do know what they are doing, and why, as a group of interested onlookers, we should be doing all we can to encourage them in the completion of what has to be a harrowing task in incredibly difficult working conditions.

livedadream · 27-03-2017 03:50PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

well if RTE say it, and no there are no female divers up there at the moment.

RTE didn't say it, the head of the dive team said it on RTE news.

How do you know there are no female divers up there?

dude read the thread, my boyfriends up there...
and you said
''according to RTE News the wreckage is stable''
and its not stable, even rocks arnt stable in those conditions let alone a banged up chopper.

stop trying to cause an argument.

27-03-2017 03:50PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

RTE didn't say it, the head of the dive team said it on RTE news.

How do you know there are no female divers up there?

You migh want to check out that users past post history, it'll give you a little insight in to their particular knowledge of said situation. Let's just say, subject matter expert.

CrabRevolution · 27-03-2017 04:01PM

There's different types of asking questions though. There's the legitimate "why are/aren't the Navy doing XYZ" or "Is there any chance blah blah?". These are generally answered by the knowledgeable members of the board no bother.

The types of "questions" that get on posters nerves are the:

1. "Why don't they use a blah that the Royal Navy use, it's far quicker". The blah being some eye wateringly expensive and complicated equipment or system that we've little need for in Ireland as it would only be used once in a generation.

and 2. "The Navy, Air Corp, Garda Síochána, Coast Guard, RNLI, Met Éireann, Air Accident Investigations unit, Geological Survey of Ireland, Commissioners for Irish Lights and the Marine institute, with their tens of thousands of staff, combined decades of training and education, centuries of experience, and billions of euros worth of equipment are all wrong. Because I think its fine to dive/lift/sail ". The poster in question presumably sitting in an office in the midlands and has absolutely no marine experience.

I know generally the posts come from good intentions, wanting the situation resolved as soon as possible, but I can see how it can grate those who actually know what's going on.

knucklehead6 · 27-03-2017 04:13PM

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I know generally the posts come from good intentions, wanting the situation resolved as soon as possible, but I can see how it can grate those who actually know what's going on.

Fine, (MODS, I apologise if this is back seat modding) but in those cases why do some posters feel the need to adopt a condescending attitude?

It'd be better to adopt a 'Here's why your suggestion won't work' attitude

Reati · 27-03-2017 04:14PM

youtheman wrote: »

would cost a few million euros for the complete operation.

Mods can feel free to delete if not appropriate. I'm not looking to offended anyone but just kinda curious.

Speaking of this (now I've no problem who pays for this operation as it 1000% needs to be done to return the crew to their families and close out what happened) but I did wonder based on the scale of the operation, how much it's costing and who is paying for the operation?

Even if it's a different air crashes we talk about, who normally ends up covering the costs in those cases?

nelly17 · 27-03-2017 04:20PM

Its at times like this when specialised Under water 3D imaging hardware cold be very useful its a fairly specialised piece of kit and I'd be surprised if we have any but in terms of the actual crash investigation it would be useful to have a 3D image of the wreckage in trying to piece the whole picture together

Irish Steve · 27-03-2017 04:26PM

Reati wrote: »

Mods can feel free to delete if not appropriate. I'm not looking to offended anyone but just kinda curious.

Speaking of this (now I've no problem who pays for this operation as it 1000% needs to be done to return the crew to their families and close out what happened) but I did wonder based on the scale of the operation, how much it's costing and who is paying for the operation?

Even if it's a different air crashes we talk about, who normally ends up covering the costs in those cases?

We won't get to know what the cost of the operation to recover R116 is, nor do we need to know, and I would suspect that if it becomes a problem for any of the organisations involved, a quiet word with the relevant department of Government is likely to resolve the situation very rapidly, so effectively, one way or another, we're probably all paying a small contribution towards the end cost.

I do recall that the Air India recovery a few years ago, which was the responsibility of Ireland, cost many millions to perform. The most expensive operation I am aware of at present is the MH370 search, and the costs of that have been split between Malaysia, Australia and China as far as I know, the percentage splits have not been revealed, but that search has cost huge sums, and at present has not been successful.

The normal situation is that the country in which the accident occurs takes the lead in the inquiry, and also takes the financial responsibility, regardless of the state of origin of the accident aircraft. If specialist assistance is required from other countries or companies, I don't know if that can be charged to the investigators, or if the assistance is provided on the basis of the expertise being available, so provided. If I were to go digging, (and I don't have the time today) there's probably an ICAO document buried deep in their mountain of paper that outlines exactly what the protocol is for these cases, but finding it could be a challenge.

errlloyd · 27-03-2017 04:32PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

I do recall that the Air India recovery a few years ago, which was the responsibility of Ireland, cost many millions to perform. The most expensive operation I am aware of at present is the MH370 search, and the costs of that have been split between Malaysia, Australia and China as far as I know, the percentage splits have not been revealed, but that search has cost huge sums, and at present has not been successful.

Completely OT, but it is worth noting just how much the Australian government absolutely poured into that despite the fact there were only 6 Aussies on board. They had no real responsibility to shoulder as much of it as they did, and have done more than their duty so far in a attempt to provide answers to families of mostly non nationals, and to make aviation safer for us all.

Reati · 27-03-2017 04:59PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

We won't get to know what the cost of the operation to recover R116 is, nor do we need to know

Sure, I don't really want to know the exact cost but was curious how it get's covered.

Irish Steve wrote: »

If I were to go digging, (and I don't have the time today) there's probably an ICAO document buried deep in their mountain of paper that outlines exactly what the protocol is for these cases, but finding it could be a challenge.

Don't worry, that answer is enough. It's more of an off hand thought that something I must know, if you get me.

scuby · 27-03-2017 05:10PM

nelly17 wrote:

Its at times like this when specialised Under water 3D imaging hardware cold be very useful its a fairly specialised piece of kit and I'd be surprised if we have any but in terms of the actual crash investigation it would be useful to have a 3D image of the wreckage in trying to piece the whole picture together

The sonar scanning used by marine institute is very good, check out the "Infomar" page for examples. Also the naval ships can scan and put a very detailed picture together.
They got some of the smaller boats to use some equipment, due to location of site and proximity to blackrock.

Gadgetman496 · 27-03-2017 05:25PM

R118 was diverted from the search this afternoon to save a mans life off the coast of Donegal.

These people are truly dedicated to what they do.

Source:

Cloudio9 · 27-03-2017 05:35PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

I do recall that the Air India recovery a few years ago, which was the responsibility of Ireland, cost many millions to perform.

Not sure it's that straight forward. Maybe Ireland has a responsibility as first responders.

However, I recall reading state papers released under the 30 year rule where invoices were being generated to the Indian government for services provided by the state. One of the documents was interdepartmental discussion at the time about the diplomacy/sensitivity of actually billing for body bags. There was further discussion about the families' request to visit the site which was deemed to be too difficult logistically.

It's possible the airline insurers ultimately pick up the tab.

Gadgetman496 · 27-03-2017 07:29PM

The Air Accident Investigation Unit has begun another investigation into a light aircraft crash in Waterford this afternoon. I guess just like the helicopter crews it's business as usual for them too.

adam88 · 27-03-2017 07:30PM

Reati wrote: »

Sure, I don't really want to know the exact cost but was curious how it get's covered.

Don't worry, that answer is enough. It's more of an off hand thought that something I must know, if you get me.

I was curious myself but bring honest was petrified to ask incase I got the head bitten off me. Never before was I afraid to ask a question on boards but people seek to be letting their emotions catch up with them. Whether that's right or wrong I don't know

Cloudio9 · 27-03-2017 07:46PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

The Air Accident Investigation Unit has begun another investigation into a light aircraft crash in Waterford this afternoon. I guess just like the helicopter crews it's business as usual for them too.

Sadly, the pilot has died.

Gaoth Laidir · 27-03-2017 10:58PM

Such a peaceful picture...

https://twitter.com/patmcgrath/status/846452798589992960

TomOnBoard · 27-03-2017 11:33PM

adam88 wrote: »

I was curious myself but bring honest was petrified to ask incase I got the head bitten off me. Never before was I afraid to ask a question on boards but people seek to be letting their emotions catch up with them. Whether that's right or wrong I don't know

There's a lot of emotion alright, and I'm sure the more scientific/engineering and technical type of contributor might think twice about asking a technical question for fear they'd be deemed to be inappropriate or even callous. I suspect that the level of emotion will not settle down, thereby facilitating a greater airing of underlying / relevant matters, until either the remaining members of the crew are found and recovered, or much more time elapses.

For me, the recovery work is proceeding well given the location and operational environment. The significant successes (if one can see anything as a 'success' given the horrible tragedy that occurred) that have been achieved (recovery of the 2 pilots as well as the black box) are huge in the scheme of things.

melloa · 27-03-2017 11:38PM

TheChizler wrote: »

I've just found out that I'm related to the immediate family of one of the crew members, and while I've never met them, I have family who would have known them well in the past. It just makes you realise Ireland is so small, and gives me an extra appreciation of the sensitivity and professionalism Boards mods and admin have exhibited on this thread.

same here, small world

i was talking to my father at the weekend,

he used to be a lighthouse keeper on black-rock, around 1970

Steve · 28-03-2017 03:20AM

adam88 wrote: »

I was curious myself but bring honest was petrified to ask incase I got the head bitten off me. Never before was I afraid to ask a question on boards but people seek to be letting their emotions catch up with them. Whether that's right or wrong I don't know

That won't happen. That's why we have mods

If you are unsure if the question is appropriate then drop us a PM, if you are just afraid of the reaction then we'll handle that..

jasonb · 28-03-2017 12:46PM

I'm not even going to link to it, but I see the Mirror has another sensational headline with lots of 'may have', 'could have', 'a source claims' etc. etc. in it. I really don't know how they can feel comfortable fabricating such 'news', but I suppose the real issue is that people buy the papers, so it works...

J.

Cloudio9 · 28-03-2017 01:07PM

jasonb wrote: »

I'm not even going to link to it, but I see the Mirror has another sensational headline with lots of 'may have', 'could have', 'a source claims' etc. etc. in it. I really don't know how they can feel comfortable fabricating such 'news', but I suppose the real issue is that people buy the papers, so it works...

J.

There's not really anything wrong with that report. It's really an extension of the information on Prime Time last week.

We also know that Blackrock does not appear on some Ordnance Survey maps.

homerjay2005 · 28-03-2017 01:07PM

jasonb wrote: »

I'm not even going to link to it, but I see the Mirror has another sensational headline with lots of 'may have', 'could have', 'a source claims' etc. etc. in it. I really don't know how they can feel comfortable fabricating such 'news', but I suppose the real issue is that people buy the papers, so it works...

J.

nothing new in that article at all really, its pretty much the same as what everywhere else has been reporting for 4 or 5 days now.

and its not going to be far off what happened - the question that will hopefully come out though quickly is why. what is clear however, is that 4 or 5 things caused this, not just 1.

so far its weather, low cloud cover/visibility and by all accounts,a navigational system Software issue. theres more to this than just that though.

deaddonkey15 · 28-03-2017 01:27PM

adam88 wrote: »

I was curious myself but bring honest was petrified to ask incase I got the head bitten off me. Never before was I afraid to ask a question on boards but people seek to be letting their emotions catch up with them. Whether that's right or wrong I don't know

I don't think that's unique to this thread. I often find the aviation forum can be quite hostile when someone asks for info or advice. That's why I rarely post here.

arubex · 28-03-2017 01:30PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

We won't get to know what the cost of the operation to recover R116 is, nor do we need to know ...

Please don't abuse your moderator status to tell people what they do or don't 'need' to know. Ultimately the tax-payers are paying for this effort and so asking about the public-borne costs appear to me to be an entirely reasonable question, it's one of the tenets of an open government.

The primary AAIU funding derives from the Civil Aviation budget which totalled about 23 million EUR in 2016, which frankly isn't a lot of money when faced with a large investigation such as this given all the other units that have to share that cash.

I haven't found a break-out of the AAIU's actual costs over the past years, though I suspect it rises and falls.

However it is worth considering that many of the particpants in the effort, such as the RNLI and fishermen, give their time without compensation. In fact the latter may be forgoing revenue in order to help. Others are professionals who are paid for their work, and yes that includes the CHC crews.

spaceHopper · 28-03-2017 02:12PM

arubex wrote: »

Please don't abuse your moderator status to tell people what they do or don't 'need' to know. Ultimately the tax-payers are paying for this effort and so asking about the public-borne costs appear to me to be an entirely reasonable question, it's one of the tenets of an open government.

The primary AAIU funding derives from the Civil Aviation budget which totalled about 23 million EUR in 2016, which frankly isn't a lot of money when faced with a large investigation such as this given all the other units that have to share that cash.

I haven't found a break-out of the AAIU's actual costs over the past years, though I suspect it rises and falls.

However it is worth considering that many of the particpants in the effort, such as the RNLI and fishermen, give their time without compensation. In fact the latter may be forgoing revenue in order to help. Others are professionals who are paid for their work, and yes that includes the CHC crews.

The point is that the cost of this is not of any relevance right now, they owe it to the crew, the families and the wider community to find out what happened and to bring them home. It simply costs as much as it costs and the tax payer foots the bill. If they stop because of money there would be outrage and rightly so.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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