Bus Eireann

melloa · 27-03-2017 11:55PM

i don't usually take hitch-hikers but as long as the strike goes on i won't leave anyone standing on the sid of the road

eeguy · 28-03-2017 12:17AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

What is needed now is something positive from all sides. Entrenched management, rogue strikes, government indifference is all we have seen = negative. There are lots of positive things that can be done surely. Yes, it will of course involve a bit of give and take on all sides. But we are supposedly talking about grown adults here, not children. The way they are acting is an insult to children. It is time for a mature, grown up meeting to settle this and give something positive. If that cannot be done, then BE does not deserve a last chance. Simple as.

That will not happen.

There is a cadre of die-hard unionists who have an us vs. them attitude. There cannot be any compromise that takes away from the ordinary, working class, front line, customer facing, bottom rung, hard working, salt-of-the-earth worker (who is usually earning more and doing less work than those fat-cat, self-serving, pigs in a trough management types

)

BoatMad · 28-03-2017 12:22AM

working class, front line, customer facing, bottom rung, hard working, salt-of-the-earth worker

ah begob, sure there isnt any other type of worker then that

fat-cat, self-serving, pigs in a trough management types

absolutely, down with that sort of thing

BoatMad · 28-03-2017 12:27AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

What is needed now is something positive from all sides. Entrenched management, rogue strikes, government indifference is all we have seen = negative. There are lots of positive things that can be done surely. Yes, it will of course involve a bit of give and take on all sides. But we are supposedly talking about grown adults here, not children. The way they are acting is an insult to children. It is time for a mature, grown up meeting to settle this and give something positive. If that cannot be done, then BE does not deserve a last chance. Simple as.

you have a cost base and productivity factor that is out of kilter

you have revenue that isnt keeping up with costs

There is three ways this is solved ( well theres 4 but its not a solution )

1. all wages are reduced ( aka 2012) and all workers keep their jobs, work practices are normalised and productivity increases and overtime is reduced accordingly

2. Wages and benefits remain, but significant redundancies occur. productivity improvements mean that overtime is normalised and reduced

3. shane ross writes a cheque using taxpayers money , more patients on trollies as a result etc , problem reoccurs next year

4. BE its wound up and everybody looses

now you see why its hard to sit down and talk, the resolution involves serious pain

eeguy · 28-03-2017 12:33AM

BoatMad wrote: »

you have a cost base and productivity factor that is out of kilter

you have revenue that isnt keeping up with costs

There is three ways this is solved ( well theres 4 but its not a solution )

1. all wages are reduced ( aka 2012) and all workers keep their jobs, work practices are normalised and productivity increases and overtime is reduced accordingly

2. Wages and benefits remain, but significant redundancies occur. productivity improvements mean that overtime is normalised and reduced

3. shane ross writes a cheque using taxpayers money , more patients on trollies as a result etc , problem reoccurs next year

4. BE its wound up and everybody looses

now you see why its hard to sit down and talk, the resolution involves serious pain

Drivers lose out on option 1,2 and 4. Hence the strike, hence there will be no resolution until no. 3 happens. Which it probably won't, based on the response so far and the response from the Luas strike last year.

Hence we live in interesting times.

end of the road · 28-03-2017 12:54AM

eeguy wrote: »

I remember a BE driver refusing to let a woman onto the bus because she was using her return ticket to make a second journey in the same direction.
The bus wasn't empty, she had paid for two trips, and the driver was giving her hassle over a technicality.
I've never seen an operator do that. I've also been refused because my ticket was out of date Why do they have an expiry?

the reason they have an expirey is to stop fraud. if your ticket was out of date they have no obligation to take you. no operator has an obligation to take you if you don't comply with their terms of travel.

BoatMad · 28-03-2017 01:21AM

eeguy wrote: »

Drivers lose out on option 1,2 and 4. Hence the strike, hence there will be no resolution until no. 3 happens. Which it probably won't, based on the response so far and the response from the Luas strike last year.

Hence we live in interesting times.

then heres the dilemma

in a private company 1,2 or 4 happens, there is no upside if a company is not trading successfully.

since 4 is unlikely to be allowed to happen, and 3 is very difficult under state aid rules ( and actually will not fix the issue )

then whatever the union thinks, 1 or 2 is going to happen one way or another

I fail to see how this will have any other outcome.

Luas go solved because the Gov had a buffer in the shape of a private operator to squeeze. Heres there is no buffer.

BoatMad · 28-03-2017 01:21AM

end of the road wrote: »

eeguy wrote: »

I remember a BE driver refusing to let a woman onto the bus because she was using her return ticket to make a second journey in the same direction.
The bus wasn't empty, she had paid for two trips, and the driver was giving her hassle over a technicality.
I've never seen an operator do that. I've also been refused because my ticket was out of date Why do they have an expiry?

eeguy wrote: »

I remember a BE driver refusing to let a woman onto the bus because she was using her return ticket to make a second journey in the same direction.
The bus wasn't empty, she had paid for two trips, and the driver was giving her hassle over a technicality.
I've never seen an operator do that. I've also been refused because my ticket was out of date Why do they have an expiry?

the reason they have an expirey is to stop fraud. if your ticket was out of date they have no obligation to take you. no operator has an obligation to take you if you don't comply with their terms of travel.

isnt the pas being upgraded to a photo pass this year, so all that should be sorted

eeguy · 28-03-2017 01:27AM

the reason they have an expirey is to stop fraud. if your ticket was out of date they have no obligation to take you. no operator has an obligation to take you if you don't comply with their terms of travel.

I understand that. It just seems like an archaic way of doing business, similar to gift cards that expire after a year for no reason. I wonder how much is fraud and how much is a cash grab.

I don't know any private operator who has a similar system, though I'll admit I have limited experience.

Yourself isit · 28-03-2017 01:54AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Except bus eireann does compete against private operators and it it collapses there will be less competition. Privatisation != competition.

joeysoap · 28-03-2017 01:54AM

Matthews coaches on M1 run Dundalk/ Drogheda runs Dublin don't have expiry dates. You buy 10 journeys and use them whatever way you want. The driver punches a hole in the ticket when you produce it. Most commuters would have the tax saver ticket anyway.

Ticket Type: Price:
Single Ticket €10.00

Return Ticket €15.00

Ten Trip Ticket €60.00

Student Ten Trip Ticket €55.00*

( from above it appears they charge the same fare from Dundalk and Drogheda)

Added: out of curiosity I checked BE fares from Dundalk €10:50, €15.50, €65 and €55. From Drogheda BE are much cheaper. So competitive. And BE stop at the airport (Matthews don't) fare is €14/€7.30

jimmycrackcorm · 28-03-2017 02:45AM

ressem wrote:

Looking at 2015's annual reports, the amount paid by Bus Eireann to "other contractors" is â‚¬127 million (compared to BE payroll of â‚¬130 million). How much of this is to private bus contractors? Or is this partially the GoBus or Ulster Bus collaborations?

Perhaps that might be the most efficient aspect of the business. I take it a good chunk of that goes on school bus contractors for example.

But it does make one ask the question why the union cannot come up with plans to make the savings required knowing the ins and outs of the costs. After all don't they have worker directors on the board?

BuilderPlumber · 28-03-2017 07:40AM

The longer this goes on, the more of a FARCE Ireland as a functioning state is becoming. That this thing is allowed continue for nearly a full week is beyond me and baffling. A rogue strike, a threatening BE management and an inactive government offer nothing while the public suffer. If this was snow, a natural disaster or even a terrorist attack, efforts would be made to improve the situation. It is TIME for Shane Ross to intervene by either declaring it the illegal rogue strike it is, by opening routes to the other bus companies or by forcing all parties to talk and resume services. Anything short of this shows us what a spineless useless country this is. The people need to be protected and their right to travel restored. That is the most important issue, the quarrels of 2 groups of overtly negative truculent organisations should NO LONGER hold the entire country to ransom with this criminal strike. As said, not one positive gesture of goodwill from anyone. Shane Ross, intervene and end this today for god's sake and PUNISH the culprits who have done this disservice to the Irish people. This is NOT snow or wind, this is human beings being selfish and not caring about their duty to provide a service.

CoolHandBandit · 28-03-2017 08:24AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The longer this goes on, the more of a FARCE Ireland as a functioning state is becoming. That this thing is allowed continue for nearly a full week is beyond me and baffling. A rogue strike, a threatening BE management and an inactive government offer nothing while the public suffer. If this was snow, a natural disaster or even a terrorist attack, efforts would be made to improve the situation. It is TIME for Shane Ross to intervene by either declaring it the illegal rogue strike it is, by opening routes to the other bus companies or by forcing all parties to talk and resume services. Anything short of this shows us what a spineless useless country this is. The people need to be protected and their right to travel restored. That is the most important issue, the quarrels of 2 groups of overtly negative truculent organisations should NO LONGER hold the entire country to ransom with this criminal strike. As said, not one positive gesture of goodwill from anyone. Shane Ross, intervene and end this today for god's sake and PUNISH the culprits who have done this disservice to the Irish people. This is NOT snow or wind, this is human beings being selfish and not caring about their duty to provide a service.

It's not that important tbh. I can think of 10 issues off the top of my head that are more pressing.

VinLieger · 28-03-2017 08:24AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The longer this goes on, the more of a FARCE Ireland as a functioning state is becoming. That this thing is allowed continue for nearly a full week is beyond me and baffling. A rogue strike, a threatening BE management and an inactive government offer nothing while the public suffer. If this was snow, a natural disaster or even a terrorist attack, efforts would be made to improve the situation. It is TIME for Shane Ross to intervene by either declaring it the illegal rogue strike it is, by opening routes to the other bus companies or by forcing all parties to talk and resume services. Anything short of this shows us what a spineless useless country this is. The people need to be protected and their right to travel restored. That is the most important issue, the quarrels of 2 groups of overtly negative truculent organisations should NO LONGER hold the entire country to ransom with this criminal strike. As said, not one positive gesture of goodwill from anyone. Shane Ross, intervene and end this today for god's sake and PUNISH the culprits who have done this disservice to the Irish people. This is NOT snow or wind, this is human beings being selfish and not caring about their duty to provide a service.

Jesus effing christ, im against the the bus strike and hate unions but even i'm getting fed up of your rambling calls for an autocratic regime.

We get it you are affected by the bus strike but the solution is not to turn Ireland into a dystopian autocratic state.

Also stop trying to compare the strike to a terrorist incident, its disgusting

jimgoose · 28-03-2017 08:32AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The longer this goes on, the more of a FARCE Ireland as a functioning state is becoming. That this thing is allowed continue for nearly a full week is beyond me and baffling. A rogue strike...

This is a perfectly legitimate withdrawal of labour by the NBRU in response to what they see as an unacceptable change in their work and pay conditions, and they have a point. I personally wouldn't put up with a loss of €150 per week from my pay. The cure for this, in my view, has to involve an overhaul of how Bus Eireann is financed as well as how private operator licencing is evaluated and granted. It is not reasonable to expect the state operator to compete against various private operators while at the same time keeping commercially disastrous but socially necessary routes running, without any financial input from the Exchequer.

quadrifoglio verde · 28-03-2017 08:44AM

jimgoose wrote: »

This is a perfectly legitimate withdrawal of labour by the NBRU in response to what they see as an unacceptable change in their work and pay conditions, and they have a point. I personally wouldn't put up with a loss of €150 per week from my pay. The cure for this, in my view, has to involve an overhaul of how Bus Eireann is financed as well as how private operator licencing is evaluated and granted. It is not reasonable to expect the state operator to compete against various private operators while at the same time keeping commercially disastrous but socially necessary routes running, without any financial input from the Exchequer.

They get a subvention from the nta for running commercially disastrous but socially necessary routes and make a nice profit on them.

The routes which they compete against private operators are loss making. Because they're not profitable due to their high wage profile and inefficient work practices.
1 support staff for every 1.5 drivers is ridiculous.

VinLieger · 28-03-2017 08:45AM

jimgoose wrote: »

This is a perfectly legitimate withdrawal of labour by the NBRU in response to what they see as an unacceptable change in their work and pay conditions, and they have a point. I personally wouldn't put up with a loss of €150 per week from my pay. The cure for this, in my view, has to involve an overhaul of how Bus Eireann is financed as well as how private operator licencing is evaluated and granted. It is not reasonable to expect the state operator to compete against various private operators while at the same time keeping commercially disastrous but socially necessary routes running, without any financial input from the Exchequer.

Its not a loss in their pay its a loss in overtime which should never be considered as an automatic given in any job.

Also its only for the expressway route which is a seperate commercial operation to the rest of bus eireann and cannot be propped up using the government subvention cus its illegal and against competition law.

It has to operate as a commercial entity the same as every other private operator on those routes, who do manage to break even and make a profit.

jimgoose · 28-03-2017 08:48AM

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

They get a subvention from the nta for running commercially disastrous but socially necessary routes and make a nice profit on them.

The routes which they compete against private operators are loss making. Because they're not profitable due to their high wage profile and inefficient work practices.
1 support staff for every 1.5 drivers is ridiculous.

I agree. Hence, an overhaul of the whole thing - financing, overtime, staff allocations. It makes no difference whatsoever to me - the extent of my use of public transport is sliding into the city-center on a trolleybus a couple of times over the Christmas period for a few ales with old mates. But I see BE as vitally necessary for the overall good. This needs to be solved, by at least presenting a plan for a plan, quickly - it'll be much worse for many more people if Irish Rail and Dublin Bus get pulled into this thing.

knipex · 28-03-2017 08:51AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

Except bus eireann does compete against private operators and it it collapses there will be less competition. Privatisation != competition.

It does on its commercial routes where it is loosing money..

knipex · 28-03-2017 08:55AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The longer this goes on, the more of a FARCE Ireland as a functioning state is becoming. That this thing is allowed continue for nearly a full week is beyond me and baffling. A rogue strike, a threatening BE management and an inactive government offer nothing while the public suffer. If this was snow, a natural disaster or even a terrorist attack, efforts would be made to improve the situation. It is TIME for Shane Ross to intervene by either declaring it the illegal rogue strike it is, by opening routes to the other bus companies or by forcing all parties to talk and resume services. Anything short of this shows us what a spineless useless country this is. The people need to be protected and their right to travel restored. That is the most important issue, the quarrels of 2 groups of overtly negative truculent organisations should NO LONGER hold the entire country to ransom with this criminal strike. As said, not one positive gesture of goodwill from anyone. Shane Ross, intervene and end this today for god's sake and PUNISH the culprits who have done this disservice to the Irish people. This is NOT snow or wind, this is human beings being selfish and not caring about their duty to provide a service.

A minister cannot just declare something illegal. Just because you do not agree with something does not make it illegal. We have a constitution, a government and a rule of law. Not a dictatorship..

If you want to remove the right to strike then that is a separate issue but it would be a long long process and probably involve every union in the country downing tools.

However for the moment the right to strike exists..

oppenheimer1 · 28-03-2017 08:58AM

jimgoose wrote: »

I agree. Hence, an overhaul of the whole thing - financing, overtime, staff allocations. It makes no difference whatsoever to me - the extent of my use of public transport is sliding into the city-center on a trolleybus a couple of times over the Christmas period for a few ales with old mates. But I see BE as vitally necessary for the overall good. This needs to be solved, by at least presenting a plan for a plan, quickly - it'll be much worse for many more people if Irish Rail and Dublin Bus get pulled into this thing.

If you agree then I don't see how you can think they have a valid grievance tbh. All they have lost is overtime really, which no one should be entitled to and should never be considered part of core pay

jimgoose · 28-03-2017 09:00AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If you agree then I don't see how you can think they have a valid grievance tbh. All they have lost is overtime really, which no one should be entitled to and should never be considered part of core pay

I think the average Joe on the picket-lines has a valid grievance because he's looking at a €600 per-month drop in pay, and it couldn't really be said to be his fault. Like I said, you'd expect me to be the first asshole to say "To buggery with the lot of them, don't need 'em!", but no, I see the need for BE/IA/DB, and would like to see this solved to everyone's satisfaction sooner rather than later.

Walter H Price · 28-03-2017 09:33AM

end of the road wrote: »

not tough tits as it will mean the economy losing out, costing more tax to plug the hole. causing people to not be able to access education and employment, damaging the economies of local towns. i'm not paying more tax for you.
not sell it off as we have to keep a public company to insure competition on commercially viable routes and we need to keep subsidies on PSO routes low and keep services going in the toughist of times. the volume being effected doesn't decide whether the route itself is viable. people benefit from public services and if others decide to waste their money on private alternatives such as education, that's fine but they don't get to complain about the public services as they can benefit from them if they wish. we have had a just about success with regulated privatization of the energy market but that is down to the existence still of the ESB. britain on the other hand have the second most expensive energy bills in the world.

The economy wont drastically suffer the loss a minority of people tbh , we should be encouraging people to relocate to urban centers or their greater surrounding areas, more should be invested in further developing city's like Galway , Kilkenny , Limerick Waterford and Cork to increase density. a fundamental issue in this country is we have a tiny population and extremely low density that makes providing public infrastructure incredibly difficult , costly and inefficient. the Dutch have 4 and a bit times our population living on a landmass slightly smaller then Munster. we need to stop wasting time and money trying to provide catch all services to widely dispersed rural population and look to further urbanisation , the fact that we only have one proper City (by UK or European comparison) is the main issue here.

After that semi states have got to go a properly regulated privitized model is the best route we can go.

Glenster · 28-03-2017 10:23AM

Walter H Price wrote: »

we should be encouraging people to relocate to urban centers or their greater surrounding areas, more should be invested in further developing city's like Galway , Kilkenny , Limerick Waterford and Cork to increase density. a fundamental issue in this country is we have a tiny population and extremely low density that makes providing public infrastructure incredibly difficult , costly and inefficient.

The only people who should live beyond 30 miles outside the m50 are farmers and miners or whatever. Boggers should no longer be tolerated!

hmmm · 28-03-2017 10:23AM

jimgoose wrote: »

I think the average Joe on the picket-lines has a valid grievance because he's looking at a €600 per-month drop in pay, and it couldn't really be said to be his fault.

Workers in failing companies are rarely "at fault", but they are at fault if they believe that nothing has to change when the company is in trouble. The problem here is that the Public Sector companies have been immune to reality for a long time, have unsustainable wages and work practices, and can't compete when they are put alongside private operators. It's the same story every time.

The public are voting with their feet, so it is politically impossible for the government to roll back competition. At best I think they could finance a redundancy scheme, but without changes to work practices whatever remains would probably still be uncompetitive - so what then?

Deise Vu · 28-03-2017 10:35AM

hmmm wrote: »

Workers in failing companies are rarely "at fault", but they are at fault if they believe that nothing has to change when the company is in trouble. The problem here is that the Public Sector companies have been immune to reality for a long time, have unsustainable wages and work practices, and can't compete when they are put alongside private operators. It's the same story every time.

The public are voting with their feet, so it is politically impossible for the government to roll back competition. At best I think they could finance a redundancy scheme, but without changes to work practices whatever remains would probably still be uncompetitive - so what then?

This. Last night on RTE a bus driver was interviewed. His contribution to telling us how tough it would be on him was to say he had 2 kids at University and another one next year. I am delighted that he sees the value in a good education for his kids but let me be the first to point out to him that, having got that valuable education, they should make damn sure they also get jobs as bus drivers or some other PS position where you get your increments, pay rises and strike pay rises every few years on top, because there are very few private sector workers who could afford three kids at University.

Walter H Price · 28-03-2017 11:19AM

Glenster wrote: »

The only people who should live beyond 30 miles outside the m50 are farmers and miners or whatever. Boggers should no longer be tolerated!

do we even still have miners ?

The point was to increase the capacity and cervices in other regional centers outside Dublin

Zubeneschamali · 28-03-2017 11:20AM

jimgoose wrote: »

It is not reasonable to expect the state operator to compete against various private operators while at the same time keeping commercially disastrous but socially necessary routes running, without any financial input from the Exchequer.

Without any what for who now? The Exchequer kicks in tens of millions per year to keep socially necessary routes running.

Zubeneschamali · 28-03-2017 11:26AM

jimgoose wrote: »

I think the average Joe on the picket-lines has a valid grievance because he's looking at a €600 per-month drop in pay, and it couldn't really be said to be his fault.

in 2009, I got called into a conference room with the rest of the staff where I worked, and we were told we were all out of work on the spot.

The company owed us a months wages already, and this meant we were out on the street owed two months. It took 8 months and some intervention from the labour relations machinery to pry our back pay out of them.

None of this was our fault, but that can't make a private company which runs out of funding stay open.

Bus Eireann

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