Bus Eireann

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 07:57PM

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

The COO said this evening that at the start of the year they had 4 million in reserves. So not long.

He also said something a lot more startling to me. That bus eireann has 2500 staff. So in effect, for every 1.5 drivers on the front line, there's 1 back office support staff member/manager
Which seems quite excessive.
Looking at that, I'd hazard a guess that the company is grossly inefficient from the top down.

They have twice the staff as DB per bus and 4 times the staff as private operators per bus

quadrifoglio verde · 27-03-2017 07:59PM

BoatMad wrote: »

They have twice the staff as DB per bus and 4 times the staff as private operators per bus

Remind me again how economies of scale work? :pac:

BuilderPlumber · 27-03-2017 08:02PM

scoey wrote: »

You really do sound like an utter lunatic talking about the army and calling unions terrorists(a few posts up), demanding strikes be made illegal etc.

The only lunacy here is this strike. Have you any idea the kind of disruption this has had on places where ONLY BE is the only show in town?? It is EASY for the champagne socialist types to support these unions. Sure, I support workers' rights but that does NOT mean I support sociopaths who have the mindset of terrorists (I did not call them terrorists but the way they use their tactics are the same). Strikes should not be made illegal, but EXTREMIST strikes like this sure as hell should be made illegal. There is a line that should never be crossed and closing down services for days on end like this clearly is one of them.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 08:40PM

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Remind me again how economies of scale work? :pac:

first you take an idea that started in the private sector ( by rail companies )

Then you merge everything together in an orgy of misguided collective thinking in the 60s

Then to protect the monster you have created you bring in protective legislation that prevents competition

in the meantime the now newly minted public servants !, realise that the monopoly position affords them great power a to be sure the exchequer has limitless pockets and management cannot manage

as a result pay and more importantly working practices get enshrined that border on the bizarre.

Then in a bright new dawn or as we call it here after two head wrecking recessions , 80s and 2006+) we begin to realise that the exchequer hasn't got endless pockets , in fact it mightn't have any pockets at all

Then begins the painful process of dismantling all these expensive monoliths, the low hanging fruit have been done, Sugar factories, Are lingus, electricity generation etc , now we are down to the Trotskyite Hard Core ( THC) . The fight will be nasty , the result however is inevitable

TheQuietFella · 27-03-2017 08:45PM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Strikes should not be made illegal, but EXTREMIST strikes like this sure as hell should be made illegal. There is a line that should never be crossed and closing down services for days on end like this clearly is one of them.

So you want to pick and choose the groups that can go on strike so long as it doesn't effect you?

BuilderPlumber · 27-03-2017 09:06PM

TheQuietFella wrote: »

So you want to pick and choose the groups that can go on strike so long as it doesn't effect you?

Strikes should not affect ordinary people. When they are used that way, that is my point about it being used the same way terrorists use their tactics. Strikes should be done in a way that hits the people the union/workers are in dispute with and should have mimimum disruption to the public. And yes there are many ways to do this!

Disruption to bus services is an example of something that affects a whole load of people. The whole concept of BE is like a car crash and its problems have been brewing for years. This sorry mess is the end result and I will remember this for a long time about this company. There is no side right in this. It is like Syria.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 09:11PM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Strikes should not affect ordinary people. When they are used that way, that is my point about it being used the same way terrorists use their tactics. Strikes should be done in a way that hits the people the union/workers are in dispute with and should have mimimum disruption to the public. And yes there are many ways to do this!

Disruption to bus services is an example of something that affects a whole load of people. The whole concept of BE is like a car crash and its problems have been brewing for years. This sorry mess is the end result and I will remember this for a long time about this company. There is no side right in this. It is like Syria.

even though Im no fan of semi states and especially BE .You viewpoint is illogical

Strikes are ONLY effective if they " disrupt " something , whether thats to shut a store or a warehouse and disrupt customers or disrupt you trying to get a bus, thats the whole point

therefore you either allow strikes in general or you dont.

I do take exception to secondary or pseudo secondary strikes and these should be banned by legislation with companies that are affected able to sue unions for losses so incurred .I also think that strikes cannot be legal when the full panoply of the states labour relations are not exhausted first.

The main issue is avoiding disruptions, is to ensure that monopolies are broken down . BE simply shouldn't exist in the form it does and its that existence that is the issue

end of the road · 27-03-2017 09:19PM

Walter H Price wrote: »

Cost more for who , sell it off stop p!ssing money down a black hole and let private operators which at the minute are quicker and cheaper then Bus Eirien (from personal experience) take on the commercially viable routs , if a routes not commercially viable and loses service tough tits.

If that volume were affected then the routes would be viable we have one of the least densely populated countries in Europe tbh the government should be encouraging the expansion and ubanisation of a few more centers nationally. we absolutely do not all benefit from half the stuff we pay tax for , I pay PAYE , i also pay private health insurance , My GP visits are not cover , i was privately schooled as will my kids be , i don't use Bus Eiren even when traveling between Dublin and Louth , Kildare or Cork by Bus as i do regularly.

we've had succes with regulated privatization of the energy market why are people still clinging to failing semi states like BE there a massive waste of money, same as the post office debate last week , the Aer Lingus debates previously , The ongoing RTE debate , get government out of business its inefficient and a drain on resources.

not tough tits as it will mean the economy losing out, costing more tax to plug the hole. causing people to not be able to access education and employment, damaging the economies of local towns. i'm not paying more tax for you.
not sell it off as we have to keep a public company to insure competition on commercially viable routes and we need to keep subsidies on PSO routes low and keep services going in the toughist of times. the volume being effected doesn't decide whether the route itself is viable. people benefit from public services and if others decide to waste their money on private alternatives such as education, that's fine but they don't get to complain about the public services as they can benefit from them if they wish. we have had a just about success with regulated privatization of the energy market but that is down to the existence still of the ESB. britain on the other hand have the second most expensive energy bills in the world.

Billy Reid wrote: »

Overpaid drivers simple as.

they aren't over paid. they earn the market rate for the job. the overtime and other benefits bring up pay and the management are dealing with them, but the core wage is at the market rate.

Awesomeness wrote: »

Its a Disgrace. Something needs to be done about unions and their holding the country to ransom.

there is nothing to be done, or can be done about the unions who are not holding the country to ransom, as they are simply acting on the mandate of their members.

BoatMad wrote: »

between grants for busses and actually subvention to cover PSO routes it amounts to 80million euros , with 33 million in operating subvention EVERY year

imagine the Gov going to private bus operators and saying , HI lads, we have 80 million for you to run services to villages and towns

Jaysus, there'd be busses everywhere on every boreen

there actually wouldn't as profit would have to be taken into account for private operators. so only the same level of service would exist whoever would run it. maybe even less if be aren't running services.

hmmm wrote: »

If there is to be an all-out strike, this is one the government cannot afford to lose - otherwise the taxpayer will be ridden sideways by the unions. FG should put it up to FF as to which side they want to be on in any dispute - the taxpayer, or SF/PBP. This is the opportunity that FG (and FF) have needed to put clear blue water between themselves and the socialist parties, the public have made it clear that they are sick of being held to ransom by the transport unions.

For a start, restrictions should be removed on the private sector - let's get every private bus in the country on the road day 1 of the strike.

the restrictions on the operators have to remain to insure high standards and to stop predatory tactics.

end of the road · 27-03-2017 09:20PM

TheDoctor wrote: »

Employment Law covers workers rights, no need for a union.

employment law isn't enough, every need for a union. a union insures employment law is enforced.

TheDoctor wrote: »

No one has a right to over time.

You get paid a salary to work X days a week.

It may take 35 hours to do the weeks work, it may take 40.

Doesn't matter.

if you work over the hours you are contracted then you are entitled to be paid for it. if one wants to work for free they can volunteer for a charity

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Last week the workers would lose a few hours a week overtime. This week they are facing 300 layoffs because of the deteriorating finances. As each week of strike goes by the offer on the table gets worse and worse.

wrong i'm afraid. redundantsies were going to happen last week as well. and the minute the management's plan came to fruition.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

They should have just swallowed their pride and taken the first offer.

there was no first offer. or second offer.

amcalester · 27-03-2017 09:23PM

end of the road wrote: »

not tough tits as it will mean the economy losing out, costing more tax to plug the hole. causing people to not be able to access education and employment, damaging the economies of local towns. i'm not paying more tax for you.
not sell it off as we have to keep a public company to insure competition on commercially viable routes and we need to keep subsidies on PSO routes low and keep services going in the toughist of times. the volume being effected doesn't decide whether the route itself is viable. people benefit from public services and if others decide to waste their money on private alternatives such as education, that's fine but they don't get to complain about the public services as they can benefit from them if they wish. we have had a just about success with regulated privatization of the energy market but that is down to the existence still of the ESB. britain on the other hand have the second most expensive energy bills in the world.

they aren't over paid. they earn the market rate for the job. the overtime and other benefits bring up pay and the management are dealing with them, but the core wage is at the market rate.

there is nothing to be done, or can be done about the unions who are not holding the country to ransom, as they are simply acting on the mandate of their members.

there actually wouldn't as profit would have to be taken into account for private operators. so only the same level of service would exist whoever would run it. maybe even less if be aren't running services.

the restrictions on the operators have to remain to insure high standards and to stop predatory tactics.

You keep saying "profit has to be taken into account " but can you provide any evidence to show that private companies couldn't operate profitably within the current subventions?

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 09:33PM

end of the road wrote: »

not tough tits as it will mean the economy losing out, costing more tax to plug the hole. causing people to not be able to access education and employment, damaging the economies of local towns. i'm not paying more tax for you.

err no BE doesn't mean no Buses , the world has plenty of Buses

not sell it off as we have to keep a public company to insure competition on commercially viable routes

now we are in Trumpland level delusion. the existence of multiple private operators who are forced to complete on a commercial basis is how costs are controlled, NO other way has been found

and we need to keep subsidies on PSO routes low and keep services going in the toughist of times.

of course,yes, however who drives the bus is irrelevant, once the regulation is appropriate

the volume being effected doesn't decide whether the route itself is viable. people benefit from public services and if others decide to waste their money on private alternatives such as education, that's fine but they don't get to complain about the public services as they can benefit from them if they wish.

Yes, but again that does not mean you need the driver and his bus to be owned by the state

we have had a just about success with regulated privatization of the energy market but that is down to the existence still of the ESB. britain on the other hand have the second most expensive energy bills in the world.

do a factcheck, Ireland is not a low cost electricity marketplace.
The ESB Only exists as an entity that maintains the grid, we now have private generators and private retail electricity companies.

Its an example of a well regulated private industry now , a model for busses maybe

( as is Transport for London)

they aren't over paid. they earn the market rate for the job. the overtime and other benefits bring up pay and the management are dealing with them, but the core wage is at the market rate.

They are paid considerably more then private drivers ( and it others that determine the " market rate ") and There is very low productivity with twice as many drivers per bus as DB and 4 times as many as a private operator

Clearly its an unproductive company with excessive costs and low productivity

there is nothing to be done, or can be done about the unions who are not holding the country to ransom, as they are simply acting on the mandate of their members.

no-one has rights to damage other people, your rights stop at my nose. Is it right that a bus strike could imperil my chances of getting to work and holding onto my job. Clearly it isnt

there actually wouldn't as profit would have to be taken into account for private operators. so only the same level of service would exist whoever would run it. maybe even less if be aren't running services.

clearly you have limited grasp of company finance, private operators are able to run services at lower cost then BE AND still make a profit

Thats the core of the issue here, is a a company that cant compete

the restrictions on the operators have to remain to insure high standards and to stop predatory tactics.

routes are licensed , the NTA provides competitive licenses against BE on Expressway services, specifically because Expressway is meant to be a commercially capable operation . it clearly isnt because BE is a failing operation , and is the only entity that views competition as "predatory"

You do yourself a disservice by these illogical arguments, There is clearly a serious cost issue in BE and you persist in ignoring it

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 09:36PM

end of the road wrote: »

employment law isn't enough, every need for a union. a union insures employment law is enforced.

The offices of the state ensure that law is enforced , since when should certain workers have a private army !!!

if you work over the hours you are contracted then you are entitled to be paid for it. if one wants to work for free they can volunteer for a charity

yes but your wages have to set in the context of what can be commercially afforded, there is in reality " no rate for the job"

wrong i'm afraid. redundantsies were going to happen last week as well. and the minute the management's plan came to fruition

redundancies are inevitable in a company as overmanned as BE , it will have to increase productivity cut routes and slim down

There is no other answer , resistance is futile

BuilderPlumber · 27-03-2017 09:43PM

BoatMad wrote: »

even though Im no fan of semi states and especially BE .You viewpoint is illogical

Strikes are ONLY effective if they " disrupt " something , whether thats to shut a store or a warehouse and disrupt customers or disrupt you trying to get a bus, thats the whole point

therefore you either allow strikes in general or you dont.

I do take exception to secondary or pseudo secondary strikes and these should be banned by legislation with companies that are affected able to sue unions for losses so incurred .I also think that strikes cannot be legal when the full panoply of the states labour relations are not exhausted first.

The main issue is avoiding disruptions, is to ensure that monopolies are broken down . BE simply shouldn't exist in the form it does and its that existence that is the issue

So is terrorism. Extreme disruptive strikes, terrorism, hostage taking and holding power and threatening to use it adversely are all forms of extortion. The mindset behind ALL are sociopathic. They have a blatant disregard for the general good and believe their own issue is worth doing almost anything for no matter how bad the almost anything is.

Secondary strikes are a major problem and if say the trains and Dublin Bus went out on strike as well, that should not be allowed. I view strikes much like I view boxing: as with boxing, strikes have to have rules. There should be certain ethical issues at stake. Allowing extremist strikes is an affront on democracy. Extremely disruptive strikes could lead to violent strikes and then anarchy. A few steps the wrong direction and you have the justification of terrorism as a legitimate. The bottom line is there are certain things that are wrong. And this strike is full of wrongs. It is not just a normal strike like one for a day every now and again like happened before. That's WHY legislation is needed to deal with rogue strikes and rogue unions and this is a rogue strike by a rogue union.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 09:49PM

So is terrorism. Extreme disruptive strikes, terrorism, hostage taking and holding power and threatening to use it adversely are all forms of extortion. The mindset behind ALL are sociopathic. They have a blatant disregard for the general good and believe their own issue is worse doing almost anything for no matter how bad the almost anything is.

I can not agree with your comparisons here and I think you are ill advised to continue with it

Secondary strikes are a major problem and if say the trains and Dublin Bus went out on strike as well, that should not be allowed.

now we agree and its a major failing in the states legislation

Allowing extremist strikes is an affront on democracy. Extremely disruptive strikes could lead to violent strikes and then anarchy. A few steps the wrong direction and you have the justification of terrorism as a legitimate

let me say that I am very wary of people that expound the idea of a " moral panic " so to speak. Again you association of strikes and terrorism is inappropriate and should be discontinued

hat's WHY legislation is needed to deal with rogue strikes and rogue unions and this is a rogue strike by a rogue union.

The state has stored up this problem for decades and the CIE group of unions have wielded power to their advantage while requiring the taxpayer to stump up again and again to prop up a failing system. Arguably our poor public transports system is now a direct result of CIEs inability to deliver anything

BuilderPlumber · 27-03-2017 10:03PM

BoatMad wrote: »

I can not agree with your comparisons here and I think you are ill advised to continue with it

now we agree and its a major failing in the states legislation

let me say that I am very wary of people that expound the idea of a " moral panic " so to speak. Again you association of strikes and terrorism is inappropriate and should be discontinued

The state has stored up this problem for decades and the CIE group of unions have wielded power to their advantage while requiring the taxpayer to stump up again and again to prop up a failing system. Arguably our poor public transports system is now a direct result of CIEs inability to deliver anything

I will always regard extremist rogue strikes as akin to a terrorist mindset. The good thing is rogue strikes by rogue unions serve to loose the support of the people. Such strikes only come out of horrid companies like BE because this company makes horrible people.

Strikes and terrorism are not always linked but can be linked depending on the mindset of the people. The mindset of the terrorist and the thinker of extreme rogue strikes like this are both the traits of the extortionist sociopath who does not care who he hurts in order to achieve whatever it is they want. Whether that is more pay for bus drivers or to create medieval barbaric state is beside the point. The psychology of uncaring sociopath is there.

I 100% agree with the last paragraph. CIE and BE in particular is a failed company and only in failed companies, countries, etc. we see all these horrid fanatics coming out. Governments ignoring the problems for years when they were smaller have also fueled the current unpleasantness. Bottom line is the current strike is unacceptable and the actions of all stakeholders involved is utterly shameful. BE exists because of those ALL sides have ignored here: its customers. This carry on hardly would instill any confidence or faith in this vile company whose management and unions are equally toxic. BE is full of rogue unions, rogue management and is a rogue company that dominated things for way too long.

end of the road · 27-03-2017 10:09PM

BoatMad wrote: »

do a factcheck, Ireland is not a low cost electricity marketplace.
The ESB Only exists as an entity that maintains the grid, we now have private generators and private retail electricity companies.

i all ready did. i never said it was low cost, but it's good compared to countries like britain.

BoatMad wrote: »

Its an example of a well regulated private industry now , a model for busses maybe

( as is Transport for London)

not really. transport for london and it's methods cost an absolute fortune and is one of the most expensive systems in the world for tax payers. in my experience it is over rated and i find i could live without the bells and whistles tbh.

BoatMad wrote: »

clearly you have limited grasp of company finance, private operators are able to run services at lower cost then BE AND still make a profit

because the routes they run are commercial and are profitable. i have full grasp on how it works.

BoatMad wrote: »

routes are licensed , the NTA provides competitive licenses against BE on Expressway services, specifically because Expressway is meant to be a commercially capable operation . it clearly isnt because BE is a failing operation , and is the only entity that views competition as "predatory"

the poster wanted the restrictions to be removed and for operators to simply operate with no restrictions. i'm telling him that can't be done otherwise there would be a free for all.

BoatMad wrote: »

The offices of the state ensure that law is enforced , since when should certain workers have a private army !!!

it is my right to organise in an organisation specifically charged with insuring and enforcing my rights. the union insures my rights as a worker are upheld as it is what i pay them to do

BoatMad wrote: »

yes but your wages have to set in the context of what can be commercially afforded, there is in reality " no rate for the job"

if i am to give up my time to work i get paid or i don't work. if i am to give up my time to work over my contracted hours i either get paid or i don't work. it's as simple as that. if i want to work for free i will volunteer for a charity.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 10:14PM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

I will always regard extremist rogue strikes as akin to a terrorist mindset. The good thing is rogue strikes by rogue unions serve to loose the support of the people. Such strikes only come out of horrid companies like BE because this company makes horrible people.

I see no evidence that BE is " horrid ". I see evidence its failing because of a cost base that is very out if kilt with its revenue . Nothing " horrid " here at all. The " horrid " bit is that the public service unions wield power and prevent these issues fro being resolve and perpetuate the problems

Strikes and terrorism are not always linked but can be linked depending on the mindset of the people. The mindset of the terrorist and the thinker of extreme rogue strikes like this are both the traits of the extortionist sociopath who does not care who he hurts in order to achieve whatever it is they want. Whether that is more pay for bus drivers or to create medieval barbaric state is beside the point. The psychology of uncaring sociopath is there

Most terrorists ( well their leaders ) are far from sociopaths, they are often well meaning people pushed into desperate circumstances ( to them ) its a very complex situation.( another name for terrorist is of course freedom fighter)

There is no comparison between legal strikes in a democratic state and terrorism, so please leave this comparison behind, its odious , none is getting blown up by not being able to get a bus. OK.

I 100% agree with the last paragraph. CIE and BE in particular is a failed company and only in failed companies, countries, etc. we see all these horrid fanatics coming out. Governments ignoring the problems for years when they were smaller have also fueled the current unpleasantness. Bottom line is the current strike is unacceptable and the actions of all stakeholders involved is utterly shameful. BE exists because of those ALL sides have ignored here: its customers. This carry on hardly would instill any confidence or faith in this vile company whose management and unions are equally toxic. BE is full of rogue unions, rogue management and is a rogue company that dominated things for way too long.

You seem to find it necessary to demonise the situation

Its very simple

a. an inefficient company cannot compete
b. as a result its revenues are insufficient to cover its costs
c. its costs are considerable higher then " market rates " and its productivity is lower
d. the nature of public unions and in particular transport unions, mean that these unions have excessive power
e. the result is that these issue never get addressed

there is no horrid management , there is no horrid workers,

what they is is successive governments that have allowed this situation to fester and have pandered to it by buying it off , rather then fixing the issues. This is especially true of FF, a party singularity incapable of dealing with difficult issues

devnull · 27-03-2017 10:16PM

end of the road wrote: »

they aren't over paid. they earn the market rate for the job. the overtime and other benefits bring up pay and the management are dealing with them, but the core wage is at the market rate.

They are when everything is in.

there actually wouldn't as profit would have to be taken into account for private operators. so only the same level of service would exist whoever would run it. maybe even less if be aren't running services.

You keep saying the same thing, you might believed it soon, most on this board do not, costs have an impact on the business, even if you don't think they are, an inefficient company does not provide good value for money.

devnull · 27-03-2017 10:21PM

end of the road wrote: »

not really. transport for london and it's methods cost an absolute fortune and is one of the most expensive systems in the world for tax payers. in my experience it is over rated and i find i could live without the bells and whistles tbh.

Indeed it is, and would you mind telling me what is different between London and Dublin and the transport infrastructure, modes, networks and different forms of transport and bus services?

Fancy that, the EU's largest city spends more on transport on the 49th, who'd have thought it?

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 10:23PM

end of the road wrote: »

i all ready did. i never said it was low cost,

but it's good compared to countries like britain.

Britain is not a good comparison nor something to aim at.

not really. transport for london and it's methods cost an absolute fortune and is one of the most expensive systems in the world for tax payers. in my experience it is over rated and i find i could live without the bells and whistles tbh.

suddenly your an economist , yet haven't heard a whit about cost control from you today

because the routes they run are commercial and are profitable. i have full grasp on how it works.

yes the same routes in may cases where BE expressway has failed to compete

the poster wanted the restrictions to be removed and for operators to simply operate with no restrictions. i'm telling him that can't be done otherwise there would be a free for all.

we agree, but public services can be delivered entirely by private operations , within a framework of good regulation. we should at least give it a try here !!

it is my right to organise in an organisation specifically charged with insuring and enforcing my rights. the union insures my rights as a worker are upheld as it is what i pay them to do

indeed, you did not hear me criticising SIPTO or the NBRU simply because they re a union. I am criticising a state that has handed far to much power to those unions by creating near monopolies in public ownership. The solution to excessive union power is diverse private competition under a overall regulatory control

if i am to give up my time to work i get paid or i don't work. if i am to give up my time to work over my contracted hours i either get paid or i don't work. it's as simple as that. if i want to work for free i will volunteer for a charity.

This only works where it is the option of the employer to equally chose not to accept you at wage rate you wish to demand. Labour is a commodity , its in a market of supply and demand .

as for " contracted hours", what a curious nature to the thousands in private companies workers that have to stay back with no overtime , to get the job done, so that they will have a job to come to tomorrow.

perhaps in BE cases, if they actually drive buses for the " contracted " hours, they mightn't be in such a difficulty as they are.

The basic fact are that the workers are not right here , but the leverage is making a case . its a triumph of muscle over right that all . its not a nice sight and I expect it will be the unions undoing

end of the road · 27-03-2017 10:42PM

BoatMad wrote: »

suddenly your an economist , yet haven't heard a whit about cost control from you today

i all ready gave my position on the cost control very early on.

BoatMad wrote: »

we agree, but public services can be delivered entirely by private operations , within a framework of good regulation. we should at least give it a try here !!

we all ready have had britain try it for us. both them and ourselves have similar mindsets. i don't believe it works and i haven't saw anything to convince me to change my mind. i did use to be in favour of privatization but i did my research and changed my mind.

BoatMad wrote: »

This only works where it is the option of the employer to equally chose not to accept you at wage rate you wish to demand. Labour is a commodity , its in a market of supply and demand .

as for " contracted hours", what a curious nature to the thousands in private companies workers that have to stay back with no overtime , to get the job done, so that they will have a job to come to tomorrow.

that is why they need to organise into a union. to insure they won't be taken advantage of like that. it's offensive to me that someone has to give up extra time unpaid to do a job just to have a job tomorrow. if your job is 9 to 5 then it ends at 5. if the employer wants you to stay behind then they should have to pay. the only time they shouldn't is if for example you were on facebook rather then doing the job.

BuilderPlumber · 27-03-2017 10:48PM

BoatMad wrote: »

I see no evidence that BE is " horrid ". I see evidence its failing because of a cost base that is very out if kilt with its revenue . Nothing " horrid " here at all. The " horrid " bit is that the public service unions wield power and prevent these issues fro being resolve and perpetuate the problems

The horrid part is the customer is put last here. Despite the best part of a week of this going on, there is still no effort to do the right thing and end the misery for customers.

Most terrorists ( well their leaders ) are far from sociopaths, they are often well meaning people pushed into desperate circumstances ( to them ) its a very complex situation.( another name for terrorist is of course freedom fighter)

This is another argument. Sure there are those terrorists who are driven by a good cause who do evil things. ISIS is not one of them.

There is no comparison between legal strikes in a democratic state and terrorism, so please leave this comparison behind, its odious , none is getting blown up by not being able to get a bus. OK.

This is a rogue strike and should not be legal. Any country that allows this to go on for days like this needs a serious checkup wrt its political, legal and industrial situation. One can blame ALL parties here but the bottom line is nothing is being done to put the buses back on the roads for customers. Not one gesture of goodwill from any side here.

You seem to find it necessary to demonise the situation

I see not one thing good about this sorry mess. The unions should know better and are rogues, the management are incompetent and self serving and the government are silent. Surely, after what is now nearly a week something should be done?

Its very simple

a. an inefficient company cannot compete
b. as a result its revenues are insufficient to cover its costs
c. its costs are considerable higher then " market rates " and its productivity is lower
d. the nature of public unions and in particular transport unions, mean that these unions have excessive power
e. the result is that these issue never get addressed

BE is an antiquated monopoly based company. All above reasons are true.

there is no horrid management , there is no horrid workers,

what they is is successive governments that have allowed this situation to fester and have pandered to it by buying it off , rather then fixing the issues. This is especially true of FF, a party singularity incapable of dealing with difficult issues

I know only too well of this. Of course this is what causes all the problems. It is very clear that one thing our politicians cannot do is solve things as they appear. For better or worse, I believe ALL sides in this woeful strike situation have massive egos and these were created by our politicians in various ways. There is nothing to like about this situation at all and it is the worst thing I have seen in this country for a long time.

ressem · 27-03-2017 10:51PM

end of the road wrote: »

not sell it off as we have to keep a public company to insure competition on commercially viable routes and we need to keep subsidies on PSO routes low and keep services going in the toughist of times. the volume being effected doesn't decide whether the route itself is viable.

there actually wouldn't as profit would have to be taken into account for private operators. so only the same level of service would exist whoever would run it. maybe even less if be aren't running services.

the restrictions on the operators have to remain to insure high standards and to stop predatory tactics.

Looking at 2015's annual reports, the amount paid by Bus Eireann to "other contractors" is €127 million (compared to BE payroll of €130 million). How much of this is to private bus contractors? Or is this partially the GoBus or Ulster Bus collaborations?

There are private small operators running local town to town services in smaller vehicles that are better value and more frequent than the nearest comparable bus eireann city to city on that route.

On Bus Eireann's expressway short journeys, if I'm remembering correctly a day return has jumped from €7.20 to €10.80 over years where turnover, passenger and driver wages have remained static. At that level private operators can more than break even. And schedule a departure time that is not after 9am, too late for workers.

Dravokivich · 27-03-2017 10:52PM

Eh builder plumber, a transport union on strike want their customers to be inconvenienced. They don't want any sympathy.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 10:54PM

This is another argument. Sure there are those terrorists who are driven by a good cause who do evil things. ISIS is not one of them.

Seriously , could we leave comparisons and discussion of " terrorism " and terrorists out of a discussion about a bus strike, ISIS is a reaction to huge persecution , decades of conflict, the interference of superpower, religion, and many other issues that are for a completely seperate thread.

Bus eireanns dispute is about cost competitiveness versus entrenched interests , there is no comparison at any level

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 10:55PM

ressem wrote: »

Looking at 2015's annual reports, the amount paid by Bus Eireann to "other contractors" is €127 million (compared to BE payroll of €130 million). How much of this is to private bus contractors? Or is this partially the GoBus or Ulster Bus collaborations?

There are private small operators running local town to town services in smaller vehicles that are better value and more frequent than the nearest comparable bus eireann city to city on that route.

On Bus Eireann's expressway short journeys, if I'm remembering correctly a day return has jumped from €7.20 to €10.80 over years where turnover, passenger and driver wages have remained static. At that level private operators can more than break even. And schedule a departure time that is not after 9am, too late for workers.

there is no breakdown , so we can only surmise, I don't beleive all of that figure is driving contracts

joeysoap · 27-03-2017 11:41PM

I see An Post and Aer Lingus got a mention some posts back.

1) Aer Lingus staff have bitten the bullet on terms and wages (greenfield) and that company is very profitable - hence AIG takeover.

2) An Post have never received a cent in direct subsidy from the state. Ok maybe an indirect leg up- the lottery springs to mind, but they did an excellent job there, hence the government selling it off (to pay for 'the' children's hospital). An post have more or less said its simple- we can and will close uneconomic post offices, and if you ( the government) want us to keep them open then you will have to cover the losses. Simples.

This is about the (mostly) Expressway service and how to run it efficiently, and as such both sides need to focus on what needs to be done. Now. That BE is overstaffed is undeniable. That they are top heavy in back room staff is even more undeniable.

Exactly what did previous boards of management manage?

eeguy · 27-03-2017 11:48PM

ressem wrote: »

On Bus Eireann's expressway short journeys, if I'm remembering correctly a day return has jumped from €7.20 to €10.80 over years where turnover, passenger and driver wages have remained static. At that level private operators can more than break even. And schedule a departure time that is not after 9am, too late for workers.

I remember a BE driver refusing to let a woman onto the bus because she was using her return ticket to make a second journey in the same direction.
The bus wasn't empty, she had paid for two trips, and the driver was giving her hassle over a technicality.
I've never seen an operator do that. I've also been refused because my ticket was out of date

Why do they have an expiry?

I only take BE when I'm really desperate.

Boaty · 27-03-2017 11:53PM

When can we expect the result of the ballot from the other shower

BuilderPlumber · 27-03-2017 11:55PM

What is needed now is something positive from all sides. Entrenched management, rogue strikes, government indifference is all we have seen = negative. There are lots of positive things that can be done surely. Yes, it will of course involve a bit of give and take on all sides. But we are supposedly talking about grown adults here, not children. The way they are acting is an insult to children. It is time for a mature, grown up meeting to settle this and give something positive. If that cannot be done, then BE does not deserve a last chance. Simple as.

Bus Eireann

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