Bus Eireann

devnull · 26-03-2017 05:33PM

The only reason that they want the minister involved is to either ban competition or to give them more taxpayers money.

The latest idea is to force privates to use the same conditions and kind of inefficient work practices they have by law.

Phil Mitchell · 26-03-2017 05:42PM

Looks like the drivers and unions have been getting violent again.

https://twitter.com/CllrKRedmond/status/846033510049759233

I seem to remember this happening before in Cork.

boardsuser1 · 26-03-2017 06:07PM

Phil Mitchell wrote: »

Looks like the drivers and unions have been getting violent again.

https://twitter.com/CllrKRedmond/status/846033510049759233

I seem to remember this happening before in Cork.

Yep, exactly the same scenario as the previous strike because GoBe have Bus Eireann backing.

devnull · 26-03-2017 06:12PM

KC161 wrote: »

Yep, exactly the same scenario as the previous strike because GoBe have Bus Eireann backing.

But the difference is this time the buses were not leaving from the bus station and the service is operated by GoBus and is operated using non BE vehicles and non BE staff.

quadrifoglio verde · 26-03-2017 06:16PM

Surely the effects of this strike is a strong reason to open up the rural buses to tendering.
If you've 30 providers providing tendered buses to rural Ireland, it's better than having just one.
If one goes out on strike, at least its a much smaller area affected rather than nationwide.

I'd still let BE tender, but if another operator can provide the same service at a lower price, then they should be allowed

blade1 · 26-03-2017 07:02PM

Why don't they keep running the buses and just not take any money off the passengers.
Putting everyone out is doing themselves no favours.

BuilderPlumber · 26-03-2017 07:14PM

blade1 wrote: »

Why don't they keep running the buses and just not take any money off the passengers.
Putting everyone out is doing themselves no favours.

Exactly!! That would be the solution. Hit BE management without disrupting the public.

Permabear · 26-03-2017 07:16PM

This post has been deleted.

BuilderPlumber · 26-03-2017 07:17PM

Phil Mitchell wrote: »

Looks like the drivers and unions have been getting violent again.

https://twitter.com/CllrKRedmond/status/846033510049759233

I seem to remember this happening before in Cork.

Atrocious behaviour. It is clear that this union is lead by types who have a lot in common with dictatorial fascists and have a mindset of terrorists. They should have lost the sympathy of all people at this stage. It is time for the government to declare this strike illegal or declare other buses using the BE routes legal.

devnull · 26-03-2017 07:18PM

From what I have read over the past few weeks, I have got the impression that the NBRU is more hardline than SIPTU.

BuilderPlumber · 26-03-2017 07:25PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Sadly, BE still remain the only show in town between some towns and CIE have complete dominance of the trains. Some places can only be accessed via CIE companies. After this strike, I think they do not deserve this monopoly. I agree that all these companies want to do is pay their top staff and consultants huge salaries.

If BE closes, I couldn't care less as long as there are other services in its place. I think the union should be closed as well and those behind this strike deserve to be tried as criminals as they had blatant disregard for the Irish people and have done Ireland great damage. NBRU is a criminal entity that should NOT be rewarded. Their top men earn a fortune too and they should lose their jobs because of this at least. I would give them a few months in prison too.

BuilderPlumber · 26-03-2017 07:29PM

devnull wrote: »

From what I have read over the past few weeks, I have got the impression that the NBRU is more hardline than SIPTU.

I would think so. SIPTU represent other workers who are being punished by NBRU. NBRU should be isolated and let's hope SIPTU split from them. NBRU are nothing but a gang of criminals at this stage. One step away from being violent too.

end of the road · 26-03-2017 07:37PM

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Surely the effects of this strike is a strong reason to open up the rural buses to tendering.

no . tendering doesn't stop strikes and there is no guarantee of it lessening the effects either.

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

If you've 30 providers providing tendered buses to rural Ireland, it's better than having just one.

it actually isn't as the costs go up and you have huge inefficientsies, there is the managing of 30 operators, and all the economies of scale the 1 operator would have had would be gone.

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

If one goes out on strike, at least its a much smaller area affected rather than nationwide.

there is absolutely no guarantee of it. for example, strikes across multiple companies at the same time happen quite a bit in london, with huge areas of the city out at 1 time.

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

I'd still let BE tender, but if another operator can provide the same service at a lower price, then they should be allowed

the price the service is operated at is as low as it's going to be as the state company doesn't have to make money, and as has been proven it can operate even in the toughist of times without rarely ever having to make cutbacks.

end of the road · 26-03-2017 07:40PM

blade1 wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

unfortunately it would be illegal for them to do that. it was tried on dublin bus a number of years ago and it didn't end well.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

it's not coming to an end as such never existed in the first place. private operators have existed for decades in ireland. the subsidized routes will only ever have 1 operator per route as they aren't financially viable, and providing 2 operators would just cost to much.
for lower prices to be charged and better quality of service, subsidy would have to increase hugely to pay for it. whatever happens the subsidized routes will never have a choice of operator.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Sadly, BE still remain the only show in town between some towns and CIE have complete dominance of the trains. Some places can only be accessed via CIE companies. After this strike, I think they do not deserve this monopoly. I agree that all these companies want to do is pay their top staff and consultants huge salaries.

If BE closes, I couldn't care less as long as there are other services in its place. I think the union should be closed as well and those behind this strike deserve to be tried as criminals as they had blatant disregard for the Irish people and have done Ireland great damage. NBRU is a criminal entity that should NOT be rewarded. Their top men earn a fortune too and they should lose their jobs because of this at least. I would give them a few months in prison too.

this is ireland. such claptrap like you are suggesting has no place here. it's a strike, get over it. oh and the trains will always have 1 operator as there are no competing lines.

hmmm · 26-03-2017 07:41PM

end of the road wrote: »

the price the service is operated at is as low as it's going to be as the state company doesn't have to make money, and as has been proven it can operate even in the toughist of times without rarely ever having to make cutbacks.

I can never figure out if you genuinely believe this or feel that if you repeat something often enough people will believe you.

A state company doesn't have to make money, but neither does it have to operate efficiently if it is a monopoly.

Transport should be set up to benefit the travelling public. Whether that's delivered by a state company, private operators or martians it doesn't matter. It has been obvious for some time that the public have moved in large numbers to the private operators when given the choice.

blade1 · 26-03-2017 07:47PM

end of the road wrote: »

unfortunately it would be illegal for them to do that. it was tried on dublin bus a number of years ago and it didn't end well

I was in France last year on the train from Bordeaux to Arcachon and tried to pay but conducter just waved us off.
Best strike I have ever witnessed!!:)

Gunmonkey · 26-03-2017 07:51PM

blade1 wrote: »

Why don't they keep running the buses and just not take any money off the passengers.
Putting everyone out is doing themselves no favours.

But that wont fulfill the prime requirement of the strike: cause as much hassle as possible to the public to get them angry and force the government to end the standoff by cutting a cheque to BE as soon as possible.

The union doesn't give a damn about you or me, they only care about their members and keeping the gravy train running (gravy bus in this case).

devnull · 26-03-2017 07:52PM

end of the road wrote: »

no . tendering doesn't stop strikes and there is no guarantee of it lessening the effects either.

If the network is spread between more operators then of course one operator going on strike has less effect.

it actually isn't as the costs go up and you have huge inefficientsies, there is the managing of 30 operators, and all the economies of scale the 1 operator would have had would be gone.

Since you appear to not know what it means, I've included a link for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

The idea is economies of scale should reduce bloat and make a company more efficient because the number of staff makes the company more flexible for dealing with things which reduces the cost of overheads. As we can see quite clearly, it doesn't apply with BE or we wouldn't be in this situation.

I had this debate about economies of scale with you yesterday and your claims became more and more absurd as you backed yourself more and more into a corner, I asked you to give examples of what you were saying and you went off with your tail between your legs and went very quiet after you realised that you couldn't back up what you said and then decided to run away like pretty much everyone on the pro-union side.

there is absolutely no guarantee of it. for example, strikes across multiple companies at the same time happen quite a bit in london, with huge areas of the city out at 1 time.

So a percentage of the services across one city are effected at once, as opposed to every single service in a city or the majority of the country as in Ireland? I'd say that is a fairly big difference to what happens here.

the price the service is operated at is as low as it's going to be as the state company doesn't have to make money, and as has been proven it can operate even in the toughist of times without rarely ever having to make cutbacks.

Bus Eireann said in a full costed and written report that there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime each day which equals the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers. This alone is a shocking statistic and must be addressed.

Right now they are paying for the equivalent 650 more staff members than the company feels it needs at the moment and the average pay is €45,000 at the driver grade. Essentially the company is saying that with modern working practices and rotas that make the best use of resources, they can save over €25m before even talking about changing any terms and conditions or rates and any other cost measures. That is staggering.

You are saying that dealing with this will not lead to the service being more efficient? You do realise that the biggest cost of running services are staff costs?

That's before we even talk about the fact that the drivers won't allow fuel monitoring and fuel saving software to be switched on in their buses because they believe it is nannying when such software has been in the private bus and trucking industry for many years now.

devnull · 26-03-2017 07:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

for lower prices to be charged and better quality of service, subsidy would have to increase hugely to pay for it. whatever happens the subsidized routes will never have a choice of operator.

Bus Eireann said in a full costed and written report that there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime each day which equals the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers.

This alone is a shocking statistic and must be addressed. In 2016 the average driver paid hours were 9.4 and the average revenue generating driving time was 5.5 hours per day which allowed a significant number of drivers to increase their earnings to over €60,000.

dfx- · 26-03-2017 08:27PM

hmmm wrote: »

I can never figure out if you genuinely believe this or feel that if you repeat something often enough people will believe you.

A state company doesn't have to make money, but neither does it have to operate efficiently if it is a monopoly.

Transport should be set up to benefit the travelling public. Whether that's delivered by a state company, private operators or martians it doesn't matter. It has been obvious for some time that the public have moved in large numbers to the private operators when given the choice.

Transport should be set up to benefit the travelling public indeed.

Unfortunately for private companies - where profit is the one and only goal - that includes running loss making routes. And they're not prepared to do that.

devnull · 26-03-2017 08:34PM

dfx- wrote: »

Transport should be set up to benefit the travelling public indeed.

Unfortunately for private companies - where profit is the one and only goal - that includes running loss making routes. And they're not prepared to do that.

Bus Eireann serves rural routes and routes that are not commercially viable is it is paid to do so. It is given free vehicles to do so and the taxpayer spent almost 100 million euro on it last year. Private operators don't as they don't get free vehicles and are not funded to do so as of yet.

I know you are trying to make out that in a romantic way that Bus E is some kind of God who does it out of the kindness of their hearts and are portraying rural Ireland as a victim but it's a false narrative.

26-03-2017 08:34PM

dfx- wrote: »

Transport should be set up to benefit the travelling public indeed.

Unfortunately for private companies - where profit is the one and only goal - that includes running loss making routes. And they're not prepared to do that.

If the NTA pays them to run the routes they will.

BuilderPlumber · 26-03-2017 08:40PM

end of the road wrote: »

this is ireland. such claptrap like you are suggesting has no place here. it's a strike, get over it. oh and the trains will always have 1 operator as there are no competing lines.

What has no place in a modern democracy (which is what we are supposed to be anyway) is strikes like this that cause maximum disruption to the public. Surely something like this should be totally illegal. There are other ways of driving the message home to BE management (I have no time for them btw) that do not disrupt the people. Allowing customers on for free or on a reduced fare is an obvious option. You said this was illegal. If so, why? It makes NO SENSE that a totally disruptive strike that inconveniences the people is actually allowed while other forms that are less disruptive aren't.

'This is Ireland' is no excuse. This is not good enough in Ireland or any other country that considers itself a sensible, mature democracy. Any visitors to Ireland at present will remember it as the country with no bus or train service in many towns! Not good PR.

end of the road · 26-03-2017 08:59PM

Karsini wrote: »

If the NTA pays them to run the routes they will.

it would have to be a lot more then they pay bus eireann though as they have a duty to insure the private company makes a profit for running the route.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

What has no place in a modern democracy (which is what we are supposed to be anyway) is strikes like this that cause maximum disruption to the public. Surely something like this should be totally illegal. There are other ways of driving the message home to BE management (I have no time for them btw) that do not disrupt the people. Allowing customers on for free or on a reduced fare is an obvious option. You said this was illegal. If so, why? It makes NO SENSE that a totally disruptive strike that inconveniences the people is actually allowed while other forms that are less disruptive aren't.

'This is Ireland' is no excuse. This is not good enough in Ireland or any other country that considers itself a sensible, mature democracy. Any visitors to Ireland at present will remember it as the country with no bus or train service in many towns! Not good PR.

strikes are democratic. not allowing strikes is against democracy.

26-03-2017 09:03PM

end of the road wrote: »

it would have to be a lot more then they pay bus eireann though as they have a duty to insure the private company makes a profit for running the route.

strikes are democratic. not allowing strikes is against democracy.

That's BS and you know it. Not having to pay the inflated wages of BE will give the privates plenty of room to profit with the subvention.

BuilderPlumber · 26-03-2017 09:04PM

end of the road wrote: »

it would have to be a lot more then they pay bus eireann though as they have a duty to insure the private company makes a profit for running the route.

strikes are democratic. not allowing strikes is against democracy.

But strikes that disrupt the fabric of society and that are not controlled are dictatorial too. This strike affects workers, students, shoppers, people going to hospital appointments, etc. and NOT just BE. People affected by this need to have a say too and it is not democratic for them when a service is totally withdrawn. Strikes should be implemented better. This strike is poorly planned by a group of sociopaths. It will backfire on them because no one has any sympathy for sociopaths.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-03-2017 09:08PM

devnull wrote: »

Bus Eireann serves rural routes and routes that are not commercially viable is it is paid to do so. It is given free vehicles to do so and the taxpayer spent almost 100 million euro on it last year. Private operators don't as they don't get free vehicles and are not funded to do so as of yet.

I know you are trying to make out that in a romantic way that Bus E is some kind of God who does it out of the kindness of their hearts and are portraying rural Ireland as a victim but it's a false narrative.

Are you copying and pasting responces, or do you think everyone is trying to portray "Bus E" in a romantic way...?

PeadarCo · 26-03-2017 09:12PM

end of the road wrote:

it would have to be a lot more then they pay bus eireann though as they have a duty to insure the private company makes a profit for running the route.

You do realise currently bus Eireann are making a profit on PSO routes, there losses are from expressway. It seems when bus Eireann go into competition against private companies can provide a better service and or at a lower cost. Since we know pso routes are profitable for bus Eireann its highly likely that given a competitive tender more bus services could be supplied with private companies for the same amount of money.

Great for everyone more services and more jobs. The only people who lose are the minority of drivers employed by bus Eireann. This is the problem with modern unions all talk about solidarity with workers but in practice its empty words. The current unions are protecting a small cohort of people at the expense of the majority of drivers within the industry.

end of the road · 26-03-2017 09:15PM

Karsini wrote: »

That's BS and you know it. Not having to pay the inflated wages of BE will give the privates plenty of room to profit with the subvention.

the current subvention isn't enough to allow for a good profit for private operators, who we have a duty to insure make a profit should we expect them to operate routes that should be operated by a state company.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Are you copying and pasting responces, or do you think everyone is trying to portray "Bus E" in a romantic way...?

he's copying and pasting his responces all over the shop

devnull · 26-03-2017 09:15PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Are you copying and pasting responces, or do you think everyone is trying to portray "Bus E" in a romantic way...?

People keep making the same points, I keep arguing the same in response to them, if you keep asking the same questions, don't be surprised if you keep getting the same answers to them on boards, it would be nice to have a discussion with them about things.

Unfortunately the uinion side I've see a lot of making a claim, then when someone challenges it, the inevitable backtracking and changing their minds and/or contradicting themselves and when you ask them for proof to back up their claims they go walking off with their tail between their legs, only to return the next day spouting the same argument and the same pattern emerges and then a short while later a new member starts up hurling personal abuse at the people who are not on the union side.

end of the road wrote: »

it would have to be a lot more then they pay bus eireann though as they have a duty to insure the private company makes a profit for running the route.

Nnobody has a duty to ensure that a private makes a profit, that is up to them at the end of the day, there is nothing in law that requires that at all, the only people who have a duty to a private company are the directors and I'm sure they are quite capable of doing their job without your input.

Bus Eireann

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