Bus Eireann

Cork Lass · 25-03-2017 05:56PM

Nomis21 wrote: »

No

Thanks

devnull · 25-03-2017 06:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

i know what it means and be are effectively meeting the requirements. overtime and rosters are an issue and that is being dealt with.

I see proof that the management are trying to do that, but I don't see the union accepting that at anytime soon. At the current time the simple fact it that at the moment the scale of BE is doing more harm than good, so economies of scale cannot be used as an argument for BE right now, come back to me after they sort their costs out on overtime

If economies of scale was the cast there would not be a list of 50 items that needed dealing with, when some of those things should already be the benefits of the company of a scale of BE but they are simply not already in place so as it stands, economies of scale is not benefiting either Bus Eireannor the taxpayer.

their tendering model is what we are basing our model on. councils have had to cutback hugely on tendered routes due to the costs involved because there is no state alternative.

No it's not.

Their model involved making all routes post de-regulated commercial and then the authorities picked up the bits that were not served or were dropped and then put them out to PSO for companies to bid for on a route by route basis, this is not happening here or anything like it and both you and me know that.

What is happening here is that the routes that are currently PSO will remain PSO and no commercial operator has the chance to commercially start running on them even if they want to, they must bid for them in bundles to continue operating them as PSO routes, there is no chance of operators here operating a route that is currently PSO commercially because the government has said there will be no de-regulation and all routes will still be by tender.

If you go into many Town's and cities in the UK the overwhelming majority of services are run commercially with very very little tendered services outside evenings weekends and very rural areas. In Ireland almost every city bus service is defined as being PSO by a direct award contract from the government to BE without any operator being able to tender, in the UK tendered services are the exception rather than the rule, in Ireland it is the other way around.

because they fear tendering is only being done as a way to get rid of be, that be will be shoved out and destroyed.

A moment ago you said that no private operator could beat BE on tenders, now you are saying that BE will be shoved out, which indicates you have changed your mind and believe they can be beaten on tenders which is completely the opposite of what you said a few minutes ago.

Like other posters in this thread and the other one, you have managed to back yourself into a corner and in a desperate attempt to get out you have done a complete 180 degree flip on your original claim and have managed to lose even more credibility my totally contradicting what you said in your earlier post.

if we are expecting private operators to operate our routes, we have a duty to insure they make a profit from them. it's the decent thing to do. they aren't charities.

What a private operator does is quite frankly private when it comes to bidding for routes, at the end of the day it is not up to us, it is their own business and their own decision, the clue is in the name private. They decide how they are run, not us.

end of the road · 25-03-2017 06:26PM

devnull wrote: »

No it's not.

Their model involved making all routes post de-regulated commercial and then the authorities picked up the bits that were not served or were dropped and then put them out to PSO for companies to bid for on a route by route basis, this is not happening here or anything like it and both you and me know that.

yes it is what we are basing the model on. the plan is to put out routes as PSO to tender, some councils in the uk did that and have had to cut back hugely due to the cost as there is no state alternative. i never mentioned deregulation at any time. i only mentioned the tendered services, which is what the NTA plan is to do and which councils in the uk have done in certain cases at a huge cost.

devnull wrote: »

What is happening here is that the routes that are currently PSO will remain PSO and no commercial operator has the chance to commercially start running on them even if they want to, they must bid for them in bundles to continue operating them as PSO routes, there is no chance of operators here operating a route that is currently PSO commercially because the government has said there will be no de-regulation and all routes will still be by tender.

If you go into many Town's and cities in the UK the overwhelming majority of services are run commercially with very very little tendered services outside evenings weekends and very rural areas. In Ireland almost every city bus service is defined as being PSO by a direct award contract from the government to BE without any operator being able to tender, in the UK tendered services are the exception rather than the rule, in Ireland it is the other way around.

the fact is tendered services exist in the uk, and they are what i'm commenting on. the councils have had to cut back on them due to the huge costs involved due to having no state alternative. i'm well aware of how the full uk model works but i'm only picking the bit relevant to us and that is the tendering of services.

devnull wrote: »

A moment ago you said that no private operator could beat BE on tenders, now you are saying that BE will be shoved out, which indicates you have changed your mind and believe they can be beaten on tenders which is completely the opposite of what you said a few minutes ago.

Like other posters in this thread and the other one, you have managed to back yourself into a corner and in a desperate attempt to get out you have done a complete 180 degree flip on your original claim and have managed to lose even more credibility my totally contradicting what you said in your earlier post.

no i'm saying that the union possibly believes that the tendering is only being used to shove out be. that even if be could win the tender the plan might be to get rid of them. but you would have to ask the union for clarification on if that is what they believe. i haven't backed myself into a corner at all and i have done no 180 degree flip on anything. i have lost no credibility, my credibility is fully intact as per.

devnull wrote: »

What a private operator does is quite frankly private when it comes to bidding for routes, at the end of the day it is not up to us, it is their own business and their own decision, the clue is in the name private. They decide how they are run, not us.

if we are paying them to operate our routes then we have a duty to insure they make money from doing so.

devnull · 25-03-2017 06:48PM

end of the road wrote: »

yes it is what we are basing the model on. the plan is to put out routes as PSO to tender, some councils in the uk did that

They only did it if the commercial operators dropped the routes or did not find them viable, they did not put them out to tender without giving a chance for operators to operate them commercially as is being done in Ireland. We are putting them out to tender before giving the commercial marketplace a chance to serve them which is very different.

There were no PSO routes in the UK that went out to tender following dereg, commercial routes that the market said were not viable went out to tender when the commercial operators felt they couldn't make them viable in an open market. They became PSO routes because nobody would commercially serve them given the chance. That step has not happened here.

i never mentioned deregulation at any time. i only mentioned the tendered services, which is what the NTA plan is to do and which councils in the uk have done in certain cases at a huge cost.

I never said you did mention de-regulation at any time, that was my point, the UK system involved de-regulation and selling bus companies off to groups and management buy outs who ran all services commercially and then the authorities stepped in if they could not do so, that is not what is happening in Ireland because de-regulation is not happening and the PSO routes will continue to be PSO routes because nobody has an option of running them commercially.

The percentage of routes being operated in major UK cities on a commercial basis is very high and the number of tendered routes a very low percentage. For example the dominant operator in Glasgow has 900 buses and 95% of the routes that they operate on are commercial and there are very small amounts of routes, mostly evenings and weekends and serving rural areas that that need tenders because they are not viable. They can run a night bus network and pay for new vehicles every year totally out of their own money.

In Dublin we have 980 buses and a huge number of routes and every single one of those bus routes aside from the 747/757 is deemed as being unviable, not because the fact a commercial operator has said so, but because Dublin Bus says so and until now they have not been able to be challenged on that. In the UK the policy is that a city bus service operates with taxpayers money if the market decides it is not viable, in Ireland it's not viable because Dublin Bus says so no matter what anyone else says.

no i'm saying that the union possibly believes that the tendering is only being used to shove out be. that even if be could win the tender the plan might be to get rid of them. but you would have to ask the union for clarification on if that is what they believe.

How can they get rid of them if they win the tender? Surely them winning the tender would have the opposite effect as it would create a legal contract between the NTA and the operator that would not be broken? What you say is absurd, I never heard of a company bidding to win a contract of their own choice and then turning around and saying that somehow held them at gunpoint, forced them to bid, forced them to not withdraw and this is proof of dark arts.

Your theories are laughable and are getting more and more desperate.

i haven't backed myself into a corner at all and i have done no 180 degree flip on anything. i have lost no credibility, my credibility is fully intact as per.

You made a point, then contradicted yourself, the people on boards will decide.

if we are paying them to operate our routes then we have a duty to insure they make money from doing so.

We have no duty whatsoever, they have their own board and management who are quite able to run their own company, I know that in general the union fanboys like to interfere in such things which is why BE are in the situation now, but you will find that in the private sector management don't want or need the public to tell them what to do and are able to make their own decisions without any issue.

end of the road · 25-03-2017 07:01PM

devnull wrote: »

They only did it if the commercial operators dropped the routes or did not find them viable, they did not put them out to tender without giving a chance for operators to operate them commercially as is being done in Ireland. We are putting them out to tender before giving the commercial marketplace a chance to serve them which is very different.

There were no PSO routes in the UK that went out to tender following dereg, commercial routes that the market said were not viable went out to tender when the commercial operators felt they couldn't make them viable in an open market. They became PSO routes because nobody would commercially serve them given the chance. That step has not happened here.

i didn't say otherwise. but that doesn't change the fact that the costs for tendering out routes are huge in the uk due to no state bus company, hence councils are cutting back heavily

devnull wrote: »

I never said you did mention de-regulation at any time, that was my point, the UK system involved de-regulation and selling bus companies off to groups and management buy outs who ran all services commercially and then the authorities stepped in if they could not do so, that is not what is happening in Ireland because de-regulation is not happening and the PSO routes will continue to be PSO routes because nobody has an option of running them commercially.

The percentage of routes being operated in major UK cities on a commercial basis is very high and the number of tendered routes a very low percentage. For example the dominant operator in Glasgow has 900 buses and 95% of the routes that they operate on are commercial and there are very small amounts of routes, mostly evenings and weekends and serving rural areas that that need tenders because they are not viable. They can run a night bus network and pay for new vehicles every year totally out of their own money.

In Dublin we have 980 buses and a huge number of routes and every single one of those bus routes aside from the 747/757 is deemed as being unviable, not because the fact a commercial operator has said so, but because Dublin Bus says so and until now they have not been able to be challenged on that. In the UK the policy is that a city bus service operates with taxpayers money if the market decides it is not viable, in Ireland it's not viable because Dublin Bus says so no matter what anyone else says.

no it's not viable because it's not viable. tendering out public services costs more money long term then the current system as we have witnessed from plenty of examples.

devnull · 25-03-2017 07:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

i didn't say otherwise. but that doesn't change the fact that the costs for tendering out routes are huge in the uk due to no state bus company, hence councils are cutting back heavily.

no it's not viable because it's not viable. tendering out public services costs more money long term then the current system as we have witnessed from plenty of examples.

So you think it costs more to tender a small number out to the private sector who supply their own buses all of the time in the UK versus paying to run single bus route in Dublin and paying for every single bus from taxpayers funds to operate them?

Can you show me examples of this containing figures where a council has spent over €55m of taxpayers money on PSO services?

Glenster · 25-03-2017 07:17PM

end of the road wrote: »

they really couldn't as only some are cut out for such a job. just like any job.

people do shift work all around ireland. people drive busses all around ireland.

we should stop talking about the BE drivers as though they provide a rarified service.

the reason the unions are so powerful there is that they know that they could be replaced for half the money.

end of the road · 25-03-2017 07:34PM

Glenster wrote: »

people do shift work all around ireland. people drive busses all around ireland.

we should stop talking about the BE drivers as though they provide a rarified service.

the reason the unions are so powerful there is that they know that they could be replaced for half the money.

they couldn't be replaced for half the money. if they could then there would be no bus driver on a good wage.

Larbre34 · 25-03-2017 07:46PM

If the Unions keep it up they will be replaced for half the money. The company will go into liquidation and the routes, including the city bus services in Cork,Limerick etc will all go to tender. After a shaky period life will carry on and Bus Éireann will be but an Irish Setter memory.

devnull · 25-03-2017 07:51PM

Apologies end of the road, I had my figures wrong,

Total Dublin Bus Subvention for 2015 was approx €100m
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-paid-almost-100m-to-dublin-bus-last-year-1.2786090

This consisted of €57m in PSO and €39m in provided vehicles.

As you claimed: "Costs for tendering out routes are huge in the UK due to no state bus company....Tendering out public services costs more money long term then (sic) the current system as we have witnessed from plenty of examples."

So all I'm asking you to do is to find one city in a de-regulated market which shows that the UK model leads to higher taxpayer funding.

pjohnson · 25-03-2017 07:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

they couldn't be replaced for half the money. if they could then there would be no bus driver on a good wage.

Would there be bus drivers who will actually drive the bus? Maybe lower pay will actually make them do their job.

end of the road · 25-03-2017 08:14PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

If the Unions keep it up they will be replaced for half the money. The company will go into liquidation and the routes, including the city bus services in Cork,Limerick etc will all go to tender. After a shaky period life will carry on and Bus Éireann will be but an Irish Setter memory.

they won't be replaced for half the money. the current bus eireann wage or a small bit less and the same subsidy will be required whoever operates the services. keeping experienced high quality staff will also be required and will be a priority for whoever runs the service. the shakey period would last for a long long time causing all sorts of problems to the country and the economy.

pjohnson wrote: »

Would there be bus drivers who will actually drive the bus? Maybe lower pay will actually make them do their job.

only the current core pay will make them do the job, as the company wants high quality experienced staff. no different to any other company.

BuilderPlumber · 25-03-2017 09:29PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

If the Unions keep it up they will be replaced for half the money. The company will go into liquidation and the routes, including the city bus services in Cork,Limerick etc will all go to tender. After a shaky period life will carry on and Bus Éireann will be but an Irish Setter memory.

This strike is horrible, selfish and morally wrong. There is no amount of words I can say to state how this shows ALL what is bad in current Ireland: you have greed, extortion, blatant disregard for the public and customers, and god knows what else all rolled into the one thing here.

Whatever one's view on privatisation, I feel that Bus Eireann do not deserve our custom if one wants to use a bus and there is more than one choice of bus companies to use. This strike shows a blatant disregard for public transport customers and ALL sides are equally as bad as each other in it.

Management of the company squandered taxpayers' money and did nothing to try and attract new customers. They put up the price (often doubling or trebling the charge in the space of a few years), used sub standard coaches and even had some contrary drivers who were like the Gestapo.

The unions are just as bad. Using a disruptive strike like terrorists use, er, terrorism. It is pure extortion and they should be ashamed of themselves for stooping this low. Worse still was not only the fact that all BE buses were stopped, trains were temporarily halted too and no proper notice was given. Surely, even if (unfortunately) Ireland does not yet have legislation to outlaw strikes like this (it should be brought in ASAP), the unions should act in a morally responsible way. Since they didn't, I and many more like me would not support them.

The end result is management and unions both don't care about customers and the public. If so, why should we care about BE. Open up the routes to others and they cannot be any worse anyway.

parkerpen · 25-03-2017 09:32PM

Nomis21 wrote: »

Bus Eireann receives a large subsidy to be part of the free travel scheme. Without this subsidy their finances would be in a much worse situation.

Most would prefer to call it 'prepaid' rather than free travel. Many feel it is part of a pension entitlement. My guess is that by the time I get to retire, it will no longer be available.

hytrogen · 26-03-2017 12:23AM

parkerpen wrote:

Most would prefer to call it 'prepaid' rather than free travel. Many feel it is part of a pension entitlement. My guess is that by the time I get to retire, it will no longer be available.

Well if we keep the birth rate down and push out the spare children to other countries as has been going on you'll have your Bombardier KC1 citybus chariot awaiting you to "stand clear luggage door hoperating"

dreamers75 · 26-03-2017 01:47AM

Imagine running a company that loses that much money per year then expect to pay the workers more.

The strike will just prove how useless it is and confirm its death.

Its kinda win win.

pilly · 26-03-2017 01:52AM

Nomis21 wrote:

Yes, most car drivers could make a reasonable attempt at driving the bus even without training but would find it harder to stick the shift work.

What about the car drivers who already work shift work?

parkerpen · 26-03-2017 01:59AM

pilly wrote: »

What about the car drivers who already work shift work?

Lots of people work shift and have very pressurising jobs, with not enough pay and changed working conditions but at least they have a job.

pilly · 26-03-2017 02:00AM

parkerpen wrote:

Lots of people work shift and have very pressurising jobs, with not enough pay and changed working conditions but at least they have a job.

That was exactly my point.

parkerpen · 26-03-2017 02:01AM

pilly wrote: »

That was exactly my point.

I know and I was agreeing with you.

parkerpen · 26-03-2017 02:02AM

Which was why I 'thanked' you for your post.

CaptainR · 26-03-2017 02:08AM

How is it that a bus eireann driver's average pay is €48,000 for the year ending 2015 when a Dublin fire fighter starting out is on €23000? And after 18 years of running in and out of burning buildings they will have worked their way up to €44,500?

That to me is an out and out disgrace, and I'm friendly with a retained fireman who'd bite your hand off for a DFB wage as theirs is a basic of around ten grand a year plus call out charges. While working for a retained fire service you must also live within 5 minutes of the station and be ready to go at a moments notice.

What a farce.

end of the road · 26-03-2017 02:08AM

dreamers75 wrote: »

Imagine running a company that loses that much money per year then expect to pay the workers more.

The strike will just prove how useless it is and confirm its death.

Its kinda win win.

only win win for those who believe in privatizing profit and socialising the risk.

CaptainR wrote: »

How is it that a bus eireann driver's average pay is €48,000 for the year ending 2015 when a Dublin fire fighter starting out is on €23000? And after 18 years of running in and out of burning buildings they will have worked their way up to €44,500?

That to me is an out and out disgrace, and I'm friendly with a retained fireman who'd bite your hand off for a DFB wage as theirs is a basic of around ten grand a year plus call out charges. While working for a retained fire service you must also live within 5 minutes of the station and be ready to go at a moments notice.

What a farce.

the basic wage for a bus eireann driver is 40 grand not 48 grand. it is the way it is because that is the wage the job requires. it's up to the fire fighters to demand their union get them a better deal. it's not the job of others to not have a good wage because others don't.

parkerpen · 26-03-2017 02:12AM

end of the road wrote: »

only win win for those who believe in privatizing profit and socialising the risk.

I see your point but you can't continue to run a company at such a loss while in competition with private operators who work right through the night. I understand that private operators can cherry pick their routes but Bus Eireann has to try to remain some way competitive.

CaptainR · 26-03-2017 02:16AM

end of the road wrote: »

only win win for those who believe in privatizing profit and socialising the risk.

the basic wage for a bus eireann driver is 40 grand not 48 grand. it is the way it is because that is the wage the job requires. it's up to the fire fighters to demand their union get them a better deal. it's not the job of others to not have a good wage because others don't.

I said average not basic, which is fairly important considering its a major point of this strike and the average is 48,000 for the bus eireann employees for 2015

oppenheimer1 · 26-03-2017 02:30AM

end of the road wrote: »

the basic wage for a bus eireann driver is 40 grand not 48 grand. it is the way it is because that is the wage the job requires. it's up to the fire fighters to demand their union get them a better deal. it's not the job of others to not have a good wage because others don't.

Is the basic wage for a BÉ driver not in the mid €30's? The problem is not the basic wage, and indeed BÉ offered to increase that, its the huge overtime bill.

The problem is that staff have been told that the rosters are going to change, and that overtime will be a thing of the past, save for exceptional situations. The pay that staff will be getting to take home will be their core pay as agreed. The present situation in the company is not because that's the way the job requires it, its because if inertia and the use of outdated work practices.

Funny that you should mention "t's not the job of others to not have a good wage because others don't". It was the Luas dispute, and their claim that led to the BÉ unions putting in their crazy claim for a pay increase based on "relativity" at the start of the year. I wonder if BÉ goes bust and consequently the average bus drivers wages fall will the transport unions be using "relativity" in their arguments any more?

end of the road · 26-03-2017 02:34AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Is the basic wage for a BÉ driver not in the mid €30's? The problem is not the basic wage, and indeed BÉ offered to increase that, its the huge overtime bill.

The problem is that staff have been told that the rosters are going to change, and that overtime will be a thing of the past, save for exceptional situations. The pay that staff will be getting to take home will be their core pay as agreed. The present situation in the company is not because that's the way the job requires it, its because if inertia and the use of outdated work practices.

Funny that you should mention "t's not the job of others to not have a good wage because others don't". It was the Luas dispute, and their claim that led to the BÉ unions putting in their crazy claim for a pay increase based on "relativity" at the start of the year. I wonder if BÉ goes bust and consequently the average bus drivers wages fall will the transport unions be using "relativity" in their arguments any more?

yes, the transport unions will continue to do what they get paid to do by their members

jackofalltrades · 26-03-2017 03:04AM

end of the road wrote: »

the basic wage for a bus eireann driver is 40 grand not 48 grand.

Source?

CaptainR · 26-03-2017 03:23AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Source?

Well my source for the 48 grand is here

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/private-bus-operators-pay-lower-wages-than-bus-%25C3%25A9ireann-1.2802281%3Fmode%3Damp

boardsuser1 · 26-03-2017 08:53AM

Here is the contrast of how private operators pay.

One i worked for paid €140 per (9 hour) day.
Another I was interviewed for paid €115 per (11 hour) day.

I won't say it publicly who they are but the 2 companies are well known nationally.

Bus Eireann

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